Canon up, Sony down

[james_frater]

Playstation is a prime example. It is dirt cheap, and if you then say it is the same price as other gaming systems, Xbox (not 360 of course) you have answered your question, think Microsoft or Nitendo ever wanted their systems sold at that price.

 

When the Xbox was bought out years ago a couple of Months before Christmas, Both machines were about the same price, and Nitendo also. Sony before Xmas dropped their price of the Xbox by $200.

 

Microsoft took a finacial bloodbath on their Xbox at the time, cause they had to lower the price when Sony dropped the Price of their machine by $100 when the Xbox was released. Thats $300 less than what Microsoft was ever expecting.

 

"It's a Sony"

 

It is estimated at least in my country the playstation 3 will be $250 cheaper than the Xbox 360, and already will be 3 times faster.

[clinton_abe]

The price estimate I've seen of the Play Station 3 is closer to $900, as it will have Blu-Ray DVD capability. There is also a difference in the number of units of PS2/PS3 Sony will sell against the number of Alpha DSLRs they will sell. Sony can afford to sell the Play Stations for a lower price as they expect to sell millions and millions of units world-wide and therefore will be able write off the development costs over more units, plus they also make money on the game cartridges sold. I'm sure for every PS sold, several dozen game cartridges will be sold. On the other hand, even if Sony reaches it's goal of 20% of the DSLR market, they will not come anywhere near the number of units that the PS will sell, so they have to write off development coasts over a smaller number of units.

 

Also, how many lens will be sold with each camera? An average user will probably have no more than 3-4 lenses, and not all will be Sony/Tamron lenses. And if Sony does try to sell at a lower price, they will cause Canon to lower their prices and Canon can survive a price war much longer than Sony. Furthermore, Sony wants into the DSLR market because there is more money to be made there. Point & Shoot digital cameras sell for low margins as there are some 38 'camera' companies out there. Someone I know told me that he was talking to the head of a large camera store in NY, and that person told my friend that they make very little money from P&S digitals, they make their money on professional equipment.

 

Why do you think Olympus has dropped their P&S digitals and is focusing on DSLRs, same thing with Pentax? As soon as one company starts to discount their DSLRs, everyone will be forced to do the same or they will lose market share. When Canon came out with their first Digital Rebal, they shocked the rest of the camera companies. In fact, just a week before Canon surprised the market with the low price of the Digital Rebal, the president of Nikon gave an interview to a Photo Trade News, a photo trade publication, that he could not see a DSLR that would be selling for less that $2000. Boy, was he even in for a surprise.

[clinton_abe]

Jimmy- I forgot to mention in my previous post that KM had said that they had planned to come out with DSLRs with 'added value', so if Sony continues with this plan, then I would think that while the DSLRs will not be cheaper than the competition that for the same amount of money you'll get added features. We already know that one of these deatures is the Anti-Shake function. What other features there may be is not known.

 

One thing that Sony has to its advantage to go head to head with Canon is that they will be making their own sensors, which is the heart of the camera. Canon makes their own sensors so they don't have to pay a middle man and Sony will be able to do the same. Nikon, Olympus, and Pentax buy their sensors from Sony or some other manufacturer, and have to pay the marked-up price.

[james_frater]

There is no way in the world, impossible that the Playstation 3 will be around $900 (is that US)

 

Microsoft has already stated in Australia that the price will be around $500 Aus Dollars (more like $495)

 

$900 is double the Xbox 360, living in fairy land, impossible. It will be cheaper than the Xbox mate.

[chris_harley1]

1: "Cannon can survive a price war longer than Sony can" - pure opinion stated as fact as usual.

 

2: Cannon only make sensors for themselves, Sony are the world's biggest producers of digital sensors and sell them to other companies - seems like a very big positive from here.I'm guessing that sensor development costs are the highest in making a camera since everything else, AF, Metering etc is relatively old hat.In fact, perhaps the 20 percent Sony is after isn't intitially all Cannon's share but all the small players who rely on Sony for sensors. They can't afford the development costs of a sensor and could be left at a severe disadvantage if Sony keeps the best for itself and charges them a relative premium.

 

3: You start your post stating that the camera companies don't want a price war then finish it on how Cannon started an unexpected price war.

 

4: You said Sony dont sell anything at a cheap price then later intimated that the Playstation makes money on its software. This is correct, Sony sell their Playstation at a slight loss (cheap price) and make their money from Software.

 

5: You're not down on Minolta/Sony but you love Cannon.

 

6: Could you please list all the companies you have been a rep for and tell us your age, since you claim deep insight into how these companies work but you also seem to have had quite a few jobs which you use to add gravitas to your posts.If you list them now we all know where we stand.

 

7:Sony sell their products at a premium. Obviously I'm not a Sony rep or anything but I just searched an online UK electrical store for DVD players, TV's ,MP3 players and Home audio and Sony appears as mid to low price in all categories. Perhaps everyone should do the same and let us know how much of a premium Sony charges.Also I think the gist of your post was that the big deal you worked on a couple (??) left them feeling that the Sony product was underpriced. So at the start of your post, Sony's alleged high price was a disadvantage but by the end of it you felt that customers were reassured by it and would pay it.

 

8:Cannon of course does not rely on the Cannon kudous to charge inflated prices for its products. I imagine they just look at cost and add 1 or 2 percent to it in order to make a minimal profit (God bless them).Ever worked for Cannon ?

 

9:Perhaps you could use your many insider connections to find out the product range of Cannon versus Sony and see who has the most eggs in one basket if their was a price war in Cameras.

 

10:Finally, this is as usual, all wild conjecture while we all wait and see what the future holds.

 

11:you say:-

"On the other hand, even if Sony reaches it's goal of 20% of the DSLR market, they will not come anywhere near the number of units that the PS will sell, so they have to write off development coasts over a smaller number of units"

 

/// TERRIBLE PUNCTUATION AND SPELLING I'LL CORRECT IT FOR YOU ///

 

You almost understand the possessive punctuation of an apostrophe. Nice try but IT'S is the abbreviation of IT IS the apostrophe donates a missing letter. You should use ITS with no apostrophe.

 

You probably need the word "will" in "they have to write off"

 

Write-off is an hyphenated word.

 

Development coasts ??? I really can't understand this, I wonder what you mean but I'm far too pedantic to work it out.

 

Thankyou for pointing out my misspelling of always earlier. You sir, have all the wit and charm of a latter day Noel Coward

 

Clinton Abe , apr 27, 2006; 01:48 p.m.

Chris- If I do the research, will you agree to learn how to spell?

[clinton_abe]

"The concern I still have is (and have had this since the announcement) will Sony's line more match Nikon's with a full line from high performance pro-level to consumer level dSLRs, or will it more match Olympus, will a good mid-level camera, followed up with consumer cameras and nothing to upgrade to.

 

If it is more like Nikon, I'll stay. If it is more like Olympus, I'll switch within 18 months."

 

Chad- Do you recognize the above? You should, as you wrote it. Your post was entitled "All in, baby" and was posted on 3/20/06, as I recall. You wrote it after you were finally convinced that Sony was going to continue using KM's A-mount and bought a 7D. However, even as you bought a 7D, you were planning an escape route. If you're not sure about Sony, why don't you go buy your Nikon and be done with it? Why don't you take all your hate and anger and go buy your Nikon.

 

You said I love Canon, but where did I EVER say that??? I do respect the business model that they have followed, as it has led them to the top of the DSLR market. Minolta made a number of errors that has forced from from the camera business.

 

As for how old I am, I am 52, how old are you? I've worked as a sales rep for Sony and for Minolta, thru a (at that time) wholly owned subsidiary. Since 1983, I have been a self-employed manufacturer rep. Some of the lines that I've repped, or am currently repping that have ties to the photo business is Casio, through their largest distributor, RareWoods photo frames, Acme Frame Products, Holson photo albums, Burnes of Boston frames (as a sub-rep), these last four are now a part of Intercraft/Rubbermaid. I know all the reps in my area for the various camera companies, except for Nikon, who hasn't sent a rep here for years. I usually have lunch with a friend who is a store manager for Ritz, once a week. Many times another friend of mine who manages a distribution company with a number of photo products, joins us. Another friend owns a small camera store. I haven't seen him for a while, but I need to see him this coming week to get some ink for my Canon printer. With all these people, I always spend time talking about the photo business. I also know the Fuji reps and knew the Kodak reps, before Kodak closed their warehouse, laying-off the reps or transferring them, and started air freighting products to the dealers.

 

So, Chad, besides taking pictures, what connection to the photo industry do you have? I've answered your question, answer mine. Or, are you too chicken to do so.

[chris_harley1]

Clinton when you say what connection to the photo industry does Chad have do you mean me ?

I personally work as a sub-contract precision engineer. We do lots of work for a large UK earth-moving company. I know lots about making parts for these machines but I know nothing about the decisions of the CEO of this company.I don't presume to know his thoughts just because I hear gossip from the cluckings of his other suppliers or his administrative staff.

I ask you for your work experience because you seem to mention it a lot in your posts and I was interested to read it.

I think, since you require me to take time to check my spelling you should take time not to confuse two different posters.

I say you love Cannon because I have yet to see a post from you stating anything positive about either Minolta or Sony. I can't recall you ever stating anything bad about Cannon.

I'm glad to hear that Cannon, Sony and all the other Camera companies take time out to keep their sales reps, Ritz and your friend in his small camera company informed on global corporate policy. I'm sure shareholders and stock markets will be informed in due time.

I don't have any hate and anger regarding my Minolta purchases, I have spent 5000 pounds on Minolta lenses since they announced their demise.

I posted a personal response to you because Clinton you are very fond of making all debate on this forum personal.

You haven't clarified any of your muddled thinking from the last two posts.

 

 

Since you are such a pedant for English grammar may I point out this from your last post --

Minolta made a number of errors that has forced from from the camera business.

Please check your work Clinton, Bob, Jack or whoever you are.

[chris_harley1]

Here are some reasons why people get personal with you Clinton since you seem to feel you are the aggrieved.

 

Clinton Abe , apr 27, 2006; 01:48 p.m.

Chris- If I do the research, will you agree to learn how to spell?

 

Clinton Abe , apr 27, 2006; 03:15 p.m.

Based on the numerous spelling errors that Chad made in his posts, I would say he made them after a night at the pubs, as he doesn't normally make such errors.

 

Clinton Abe , apr 28, 2006; 04:01 p.m.

Is there something in the water you and Chad drink, that prevents you two from understand this?

 

Clinton Abe , apr 30, 2006; 04:16 a.m.

Or, are you too chicken to do so.

 

Clinton Abe , apr 20, 2006; 01:53 p.m.

Peter- Take your medication... you're becoming nauseating again. As for the news, I expect the news from Sony will be coming faster and faster.

 

Clinton Abe , apr 21, 2006; 05:05 p.m.

Boy, am I glad I didn't eat lunch before reading PBM's post, otherwise I'd have up-chucked all over my keyboard. I've never seen some one with so little to say, take up so much room or bandwidth.

(Particularly Ironic)

 

Clinton Abe , feb 21, 2005; 12:08 a.m.

It's posters like Tom, Craig, and Andrew that hold back KM. I'll bet all of you are strictly amateur photographers that have no need for a ruggedly built SLR of shooting 14MP. You guys probably only shoot pictures of your kids with a 28-200 zoom lens. As for no sensor more than 6MP, heck a lot of new point & shoots are 7.

 

Clinton Abe , feb 21, 2005; 03:18 a.m.

Andy- Canon has a good system, too bad they make their equipment obsolete so quickly. If I had to start over today, I would probably buy their equipment. I do use their scanner and have a 9900i printer which I love. But tell me, why are you looking at the KM forum, looking to switch to a better sysytem? And why would you want to switch to a full-size sensor? The smaller sensor not good enough for you? Do you have sensor-size envy?

 

Clinton Abe , mar 05, 2005; 09:14 p.m.

Ivo, you very much are a know-it-all, so I won't waste any more time with you.

 

 

Clinton Abe , feb 21, 2005; 12:32 p.m.

Tom- I would anticipate that a Maxxum 9D Pro, with a 14MP sensor,at this point in time would have a MSRP of around $4000, and a street price of about $3200. I say "at this point in time" as prices could drop. I remember reading a trade publication that came out about a week before Canon released the Digital Rebel. The President of Nikon said in an interview that he didn't see a DSLR being available for less than $2000. You seem to think that KM should fix the 7D before they come out with another camera, isn't that like telling Microsoft that they shouldn't have come out with XP before they fixed 2000? And maybe you should tell Chevy that they should stop selling the Corvette because you'll never use 400HP, and you can't afford one anyway. You may not have a use for a $4000 14MP DSLR, but the world doesn't revolve around you.

 

Clinton Abe , mar 05, 2005; 03:33 p.m.

I bought the first Maxxum 9 sold in my state when it first came out, and I knew back then that it would be the last film camera I would buy. I'm waiting for a suitable digital KM camera to replace it.

(A mature boast form a 52-year-old

[chris_harley1]

Some examples of insider knowledge.

 

9D Pro rumor again

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00BBub

Some more wild conjecture featuring Clinton and his insider contacts

 

Clinton Abe , feb 21, 2005; 10:15 p.m.

Chad- Why would KM have to redesign the full line of lenses if they came out with a full-size sensor? The lenses were designed to fill a 35mm negative and a full-size sensor would be the same size as a 35mm neg. Canon didn't need to redesign there lenses when they came out with a full-size sensor. KM may have to give up the anti-shake or reduce the amount of anti-shake. There is no law that says every camera has to have the anti-shake. As to it bankrupting the company, do you think cameras are all KM makes? KM makes a wide variety of business equipment in which they make a lot more profit, just as Canon, Nikon, Olympus, and Pentax does. You might want to read their financial statement to see just how undependent they are on a the SLR market. Why would they come out with a SSM 300mm f/2.8 that has a retail of $7000? How many Maxxum 7D users do you think will buy one? It was designed to fit a higher end user.

(Wiser now after the facts)

 

Just because no one has a FF 14MP sensor doesn't preclude anyone from coming out with one. Minolta has teamed up with other companies to design new products. I think too many posters on this forum lack the fore-sight or understanding of the industry.

(Show us the future Clinton)

 

Clinton Abe , mar 04, 2005; 11:23 p.m.

Ivo- I've worked for Minolta years ago. Even when I worked for Minolta, the company did not make a lot of money on the higher end cameras like the XK or XK Motor, or the 9000.

 

I'VE WORKED FOR MINOLTA, SELLING CAMERAS. HAVE YOU?

 

I stand by my post

(Standing by his 9D predictions and showing his insider credentials and slanging all in one)

 

Clinton Abe , mar 05, 2005; 03:33 p.m.

Ivo- Let's see, I know and talk to these people in my area- the KonicaMinolta camera rep, the GM of the KonicaMinolta distributor for paper, processing machines, etc., the Canon rep, the Olympus rep, the Pentax rep, the Kodak distributor reps, the Fuji reps, a Kodak master distributor rep, the Sony reps. One of my friends is a store manager for Ritz Camera, another friend has a camera store that sells the most KM products in the area. The only rep I don't know or talk to is the Nikon rep, as he comes very rarely in to town.

(On where he gets his 9D info)

 

 

Clinton Abe , feb 22, 2005; 01:18 a.m.

Chad and all you other posters who think KM is dependent on the Camera business to make money, here are the figures of KM's financial statement for the first 9 months of their fiscal year (thru December 2004). All these figures are in YEN- Business Technologies- Sales 417B yen, Operating Income- 38.7B yen; Optic Business- Sales 66.5B yen, Oper. Income- 11.2B yen; Medical & Graphic Imaging- Sales 90B yen, Oper. Income- 5.4B yen; Sensing Business- Sales 3.7B yen, Oper. Income- 1.1B yen; Photo Imaging (which includes CAMERAS, film, processing equipment, paper, inks & toner, etc.)- Sales 215.9B yen, Oper. Income- (-2.6B yen). As you can all see, the camera business is not really all that important to KonicaMinolta, they actually lost money in this sector!!! How much of the 215.9B yen, in sales the Photo Imaging made is from cameras, much less SLR's, I don't know. But, like I've said, KM doesn't depend on the camera business. They WILL come out with a 9D Pro not to make money, but to show their technological abilities.

Clinton Abe , feb 22, 2005; 02:43 a.m.

I looked at the financial statements of Canon, Nikon, and Olympus and compared them with KM. Canon by far is the largest 'camera' company in both Sales and in Operating Income. Their FULL year sales figure for 2004 was 3,468Trillon (!) yen and Operating income of 543B yen. Canon's figures are for the full (fiscal) year whereas, the rest are for 9 months, as their fical year ends at the end of March. Guess who came in second? KM came in second with Sales of 718.1B yen and Operating Income of 53.8B yen. And in third, was Olympus with Sales of 565.17B yen, and Operating Income of 26.1B yen thru 9 months. Nikon had third quarter figures of 465.88B yen, and Operating Income of 13.99B yen (again thru 9 months). Pentax didn't give any financial statements on their site. So, Nikon has PRO equipment, big deal!!! It's the money that counts!!!

(On how Minoltas earnings make them a sure fire hit in the Camera business)

 

[clinton_abe]

Chris- So, what's your point??? I never said I was an insider, just someone who talks to people in the industry, more than other posters on this forum. I have been very upfront and consistent in my posts. The one insider, or it seemed that way, who has posted on this forum was Eugene Cunningham, who was chastised by morons like you. (Oh, you can add that to your earlier list.) However, the people I talk to, don't have access to the decisions-making people, but they are more knowledgable then you are. How many reps and camera shop people do you talk to on a weekly basis?

 

And your last post regarding my statement about a '9D' with a 14MP sensor, does in fact illustrate how other poster don't know what they're talking about. When a 14MP sensor was brought up, other posters said it couldn't happen as no one made a 14MP sensor. My reply that KM could work with an outside supplier to make one. This was before it became public knowledge that KM was working with Sony in a joint development project. I don't know if the SONY DSLR will be a 14MP sensor, but it does show that KM was working with an outside supplier, Sony. I would be surprised if the SONY DSLR used a sensor that is being used by anyone else.

 

Chump, I mean Chris, if you're going to try and put me down, at least show me where I've been inconsistent or claimed to be something that I'm not.

[chris_harley1]

I think perhaps your ego stops you looking at yourself rationally.

[chris_harley1]

The real point is Clinton this is an open forum for all to air their views not to bow down to yours. I think you have been right on some and wrong on others.You clearly are no more in the know than anyone else.Its fine to discuss your opinions but let everyone else have a chance too.

 

STOP IMPLYING THAT YOU KNOW MORE THAN WE DO, YOUR PREVIOUS POSTS HAVE BEEN AS WILDLY INNACCURATE AS SOME OF THE OTHER OPINIONS HERE.

 

Oh and I've only had any beef on this forum with you and I'm not the only one.Never even conversed with Eugene.

[clinton_abe]

Chris- What predictions have I made??? Once again you're accusing me of doing something that is not backed-up by the 'facts' that you've dug out. I have NEVER said that I got some in-side information from the factory. I have been up-front with my 'credentials'. When asked by Bill Thorlin, what equipment I used, I quickly answered his inquiry, something that he refused to do in return. When you asked what companies I repped, I answered quickly, but you only say what you do, not what company you work for. I have never mislead anyone, and as you have found out, I have been consistent in what I post.

 

You made a point of my 'attacks' against other posters, but you haven't posted what other posters have said against me, without any provocation on my part. For example, look at the response I got with this forum 'question'. And don't forget the attacks that were heaped against me when I posted the famous question "Film is Dying", or "More Proof Film is Dying". However, if you look at the substance of those two posts, you'll see that my 'predictions' about film are becoming more and more true.

 

I have had a couple of other forum users, email me about subjects that were brought up on this forum and I have been open and whenever I can, helpful to them.

 

It seems that there are a few posters on this forum, of which you are one, that no matter what I post, will take issue with. If I were to say "The sun is hot", you'll say "No it isn't". If you don't like the 'question' that I orginally posted on this forum, then don't post a reply and attack me. You, and a few others, seem to eagerly seek out my posts to look for any errors or something yoy can attack. You don't add anything to the discussion, you just want to make personal attacks against me. So, don't make it look like you're a 'saint', 'cause you ain't.

[chris_harley1]

As I said before some you are right some you are wrong.I have seen many posts from you being very helpful and you are an active and useful member of the forum.

You opened a discussion here that could be valuable and instructive but it is all supposition since we're all trying to predict the future on very few (no) facts.This means all our opinions are valid, since they are purely opinions.

Looking back through these posts I'd say you're right I have gone for your throat.This is the culmination of seeing some very aggressive posts from you to others and being on the receiving end of a few.

Ok, sorry.

You can though be a little high-handed.

Please dont prefix your opinions with "when I was a Rep for" when we're trying to divine the future via a snippet of information from Sony and profit figures from the last quarter since I can't see it has much bearing ( ok it wasn't a direct reference) what you're really saying is "shut up I know more than you."

I think your posts regarding Minolta sales figures meaning they will run their camera operations at a loss show you get it wrong sometimes.Although later you did argue the reverse and I admit I argued much the same point against you. Minolta lost, I lost and you won (?). Read my post during Minolta's demise and you will see a sincere apology to you from me, I admitted I was wrong.

I think perhaps it's not what you say Clinton it's the way you say it that counts.

I'm happy to draw a line under this and leave it.I'm NOT here to attack you or anyone else.

Please continue posting because, as I said before you are a valuable member of this forum, your opinions are interesting to read. They are dearly held by you but everyone elses opinions are equally dear to them.

Oh by the way, there's some awful punctuation and spelling in all these posts ;-)

[bill_thorlin]

Clinton - that is total misrepresentation and you know it ! I never asked what Minota kit you used, I asked IF YOU ACTUALLY USED IT ( consequent upon a previous post by you saying that you had a lot of Minolta equipment but only used a Sony P&S ). I repeated again later that I was not in the least bit interested in what kit you had but as usual you refused to listen to anyone other than yourself. Ultimately to shut you up I did in fact list the Minolta equipment I owned and USED.

 

Ah yes the late Eugene Cunningham ( aka KMSEA ) the man who made conflicting predictions more often than some people change their underwear. As recently as 28 December 2005 he was predicting a new upgrade by way of a 7DII and a new 100-400mm lens within a matter of days. What happened ( unpredicted ) within a few days as we all now know was something very different ! He has not been heard of since - I wonder why ? Anyone using him as justification has just shot them self in the foot :)

 

Chris ( or is that Chad ) - welcome to the club. Nice try but it is like trying to nail jelly to a wall :)

[clinton_abe]

bill- Your memory must be slipping, as you did ask me want I "owned and USED". I listed the equipment that I owned and when pressed by you as to whether I USED it, I went out and shot a roll of film. However, you refused to answer my question as to the Minolta equipment you owned and USED. Click on the following link and see for yourself-

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Dw2r&tag=

 

In a later forum question, I did ask you again what equipment you owned and USED, so I'll have to dig that one out to refresh my memory as to whether you finally answered it. However, when I directly asked you in the above link, you refused to answer it. To save me some time, I'll ask you again- Bill Thorlin, what equipment to you own and USE???

[chris_harley1]

God, grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

Courage to change the things I can and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Hmm, now where do sales reps fit ?

[bill_thorlin]

Clinton - as ever you miss the point and I do believe that this is a deliberate tactic when caught out. I asked ( yes I will repeat it ) what Minolta kit you OWNED AND ( repeat AND ) USED ( repeat USED ). The simple answer was that you did not USE any and this is apparent from your comment "I went out and shot a roll of film".

 

I ultimately answered your question about what kit I owned and used - it is a matter of record. This is of course a red herring to avoid having to deal with the point at issue.

 

No comments on your friend Eugene - I take this to mean you agree with what I say. At least we have that one straight.

[clinton_abe]

bill- Are you a politician??? You keep skating around my question of what equipment you own and USE. As your last post shows, I went out with my Maxxum 9 and shot a roll of film. Isn't that USING my equipment??? Again, I'll ask you, "What equipment do you own and USE?" If you've posted a list of the equipment, why don't you or one of your buddies post a link to your privious response?

 

I've noticed that in the past, you rarely answer a question posted on this forum with any 'technical' nature, you merely make an observation or comment. Is this because you don't actually own or USE any photographic equipment?

[bill_thorlin]

Clinton - thank you for your posts, the content is more than sufficient for it to be cased proved on the misrepresentation matter. With such a satisfactory outcome I am pleased to be able to mark this one as "file closed".

[clinton_abe]

Don't worry Bill, I'll keep asking you about what equipment you own and USE every chance I get.