9D Pro???

[clinton_abe]

I talked to my friend who is attending the PMA show which opened

today in Orlando. He went to the KM booth, and sorry to say, did not

see any signs of the 9d Pro. KM was focused on the Maxxum 7D.

However, he said that tomorrow he was going to try and talk to some

people he knows at KM to see if there is a private showing of the

9D. Companies will often give a private showing, either in a private

meeting room at the show, or in a hotel suite to key people. So

don't give up hope, there may be more in the coming days.

[edward_h]

Um. The 7D came out but a few months ago and you're expecting more? Let KM keep dishing out the 7D for about another two years before releasing a 9D.

[clinton_abe]

Edward- The 7D and 9D would appeal to different markets. The 7D is aimed at the amateur and semi-pro user, while a 9D would be aimed at the pro or serious amateur. All the other companies have more than one DSLR, so why shouldn't KM? Who is it going to hurt? And to wait 2 years??? Hell, by then Canon will have released another 8-10 new DSLRs. It sounds like you must of just bought a 7D and now are afraid that you won't have bragging rights to having the newest.

[andrew robertson]

Clinton, give up hope. There's no 9D coming in the next few days. Sounds like you're

holding out because you think the 7D isn't good enough for you, and you're afraid to have

the same camera as everyone else.

 

Seriously, the 7D just came out, and isn't exactly outselling the Canon or even Nikon

DSLRs.

 

How do YOU like it?

[clinton_abe]

Andrew- You are right, the Maxxum 7D is NOT good enough for me!!! I spent a lot of time and money building up a bunch of lens that fit the type of shooting I do. I like to shoot extreme wide angle shots and with the 1.5X factor of the 7D, my 14mm rectilinear becomes a 21mm, my 20mm becomes a 30mm. Right now no one has come out with a replacement for my 14mm. I don't know if a 9D will be a full-size sensor camera, but I am hoping it is. Another reason, the 7D isn't good enough for me is because I don't know how tough it is. My Maxxum 9, is a very durable camera. One thing I've found out about a digital camera is that they are more delicate than a film camera. A bump that a film camera would laugh off, may mean you'll need to get a new body if it were a digital body. Any PRO DSLR KM may come out with will probably be very tough.Andrew, is that good enough for you?

[tom_montemarano]

What do you want in a 9D? A bigger, rugged, more expensive camera with a 6mp, 1.5x sensor? I'm not aware of a higher mp, larger sensor that KM could buy. I know about the 8mp 4/3's, but is there some other?

 

A 9D would have to cost more than the 7D. People have complained about the cost of the 7D since it is only a 6mp camera. Unless a 9D had more mp and a larger sensor (1.3x crop or full frame), people would really complain. How much would you be willing to pay? $3000? Remember that the 9 film camera was 2x's the price of the 7 film camera when the 7 was released. The only advantage of the 9 film camera compared with the 7 was its better build, 100%VF, and higher frame rate. They both had the same sensor.

 

There are three things I'd like to see KM do:

 

1. Solve the problems with the 7D. The new firmware solved the slow write times, but they still need to get the backfocus (QC?) and external flash exposure problems fixed. I can't see them releasing another camera until those things are fixed.

 

2. Wide angle lenses for the 1.5x crop.

 

3. The 9D that I'd like to see would be a modular camera with interchangable sensor modules. In that case I think they could release a 6 or 8 mp 1.5x 9D if they also anounced that they intended to support upgraded backs with higher performance sensors (actually sensor and all the necessary 'guts' needed for processing). K-M would have to actually announce longer term plans, something they haven't done in the past.

 

That way someone buying the 9D would know that they would not be starting down the 'need a new camera' trail that N and C users have every time there is an upgrade in technology.

 

Digressing to talking about Canon, the 1D body, based on the 1V is really a body that shouldn't have needed upgrading. That camera should have been upgradable to a 1Ds or the Mark II's, just by adding new sensor modules/backs. While it might not be a big deal for companies or full time pros to sell (or wear out) and replace their cameras, it would seem to be a burden for semi pros/advanced amateurs.

 

If KM announced an upgradable 9D, you could spend the money for the pro quality camera (AF, shutter, AE, flash, VF, and operator interface) and know that in a year or two you could also have the latest technology sensor. KM showed that they can introduce unique features such as AS which moved them from no stabilized lenses to all lenses stabilized. A modular 9D would be another unique approach to a DSLR. Icing on the cake: a film module for a 9D. However, I don't think that they would announce such a system until they were ready to release the camera, since a long delay would allow someone like Canon to scoop them. And I don't think that they should be ready to release a 9D until they have fixed the 7D.

 

Tom

[craig_gillette]

I find difficult to believe that anybody so intently "needy" of a bulletproof pro body and lens selection hasn't already bailed out. If you really need and can really afford that kind of gear, go buy what you need and sell the KM stuff you have. The alternative is to keep waiting and hoping. Will there be a 5D and a 9D? One would hope so. But I'm not a stockholder so they aren't selling them to make me money. If I was in a position of influence I'd have been beating people for years about this. I think the "pro" train left the KM station a long time ago.

[clinton_abe]

It's posters like Tom, Craig, and Andrew that hold back KM. I'll bet all of you are strictly amateur photographers that have no need for a ruggedly built SLR of shooting 14MP. You guys probably only shoot pictures of your kids with a 28-200 zoom lens. As for no sensor more than 6MP, heck a lot of new point & shoots are 7.1. And I'm sure KM is capable of designing a 14MP sensor, they do have engineers on the payroll. I can see why Patrick is glad to see that I came aboard this forum. As for why I haven't jumped ship. I've been using Minolta equipment since 1969, and while I could have moved to another system, let's just say I'm loyal to a fault. If you guys don't want a PRO level digital camera, you're free to skip my posts.

[andrew robertson]

Clinton, childish ad-hominem attacks don't become adults. Personally, I only have interest

in maintaining one SLR system, and it happens that I chose Canon. I am interested in

seeing other companies compete with them, as it will bring down prices on the full frame

(24x36) DSLR which I would really like to have someday.

 

As far as your claim about DSLRs being fragile, you are full of it. I own a 10D, and it has

been jarred, dropped, slid across concrete, rained on, snowed on, and exposed to salt

spray dozens of times. Still ticking strong. In fact, if you think about it, the fact that a

DSLR has far fewer moving parts than a film camera would give it more durability, not less.

 

It appears to me that there are probably brain dead 90 year old Japanese guys heading

Konica Minolta who won't risk any of their precious wealth by really innovating and are

instead content to follow and rationalize away the myriad reasons that fewer and fewer

folks are buying their system.

[clinton_abe]

Andy- Canon has a good system, too bad they make their equipment obsolete so quickly. If I had to start over today, I would probably buy their equipment. I do use their scanner and have a 9900i printer which I love. But tell me, why are you looking at the KM forum, looking to switch to a better sysytem? And why would you want to switch to a full-size sensor? The smaller sensor not good enough for you? Do you have sensor-size envy?

[andrew robertson]

Clinton, it's tough to fit everything in with a 24mm TS-E lens in cramped quarters when

that lens becomes almost a 40mm equivalent.

 

I drop in from time to time on almost every forum, and really do wish K-M, Nikon, and

Pentax would all release larger sensor cameras specifically to drive prices down in the

Canon world.

[Brian]

Clinton, you say you're loyal to a fault, and in this case you wrote truer than you know. In this case, brand loyalty is a fault. If you need a particular type of camera, you source it from wherever you can. The people described as "jumping ship" have merely been making pragmatic buying decisions.

[dennis_fallon1]

Clinton, you wrote:

 

> I'll bet all of you are strictly amateur photographers that have no need for a ruggedly built SLR of shooting 14MP.

 

That's likely true of the vast majority of Minolta Maxxum shooters. Or, more to the point, Minolta doesn't have nearly as big a prospective market for a full frame 14MP camera that Canon or Nikon do, and it's a much riskier proposition.

 

I also note that popular opinion is that 6MP is a rough match for 35mm when it comes to print output (a bit less detail, but great edges and cleanliness) while 14MP starts to become a match for medium format. So while the vast majority of photographers don't need a "rugged, pro body", an even bigger majority of 35mm photographers don't "need" image quality that exceeds what they had before. Note that Nikon's high end model; a "lowly" 12MP smaller-than-full frame, hasn't even made it to the shelves yet. So I think 14MP FF from KM is serious wishful thinking at this point.

 

In my opinion, KM wasn't "late" to the DSLR party (RD models aside) so much as they waited until they could produce a camera at a reasonable enough price that a lot of people would buy it. I expect they'll do the same with a 9D and don't expect to see one for a while yet.

 

I do expect to see an entry level model announced later this year.

 

Some of my speculation is based on rumor, some on my own expectations. But you keep referring to "the 9D" as if it exists, and I think that you'll be disappointed.

 

I'm not arguing that there may be a few of you out there who think they need such a camera; I just believe that it probably doesn't make sense for KM to produce one right now.

 

- Dennis

[david_bedell]

"I'll bet all of you are strictly amateur photographers that have no need for a ruggedly built SLR of shooting 14MP"

 

Absolutely. 50 years ago everyone was perfectly happy with their Brownie. What made us so greedy that we now want 14MP digital SLRs? The Western world has gone bad...

[tom_montemarano]

Clinton wrote:

 

"It's posters like Tom, Craig, and Andrew that hold back KM."

 

If I was a K-M stock holder, you might be correct, but since I'm not and they haven't asked me, I doubt it.

 

and: "I'll bet all of you are strictly amateur photographers that have no need for a ruggedly built SLR of shooting 14MP."

 

True, but that's not the point - K-M can't sell something that doesn't exist (14Mp sensor that they can buy and sufficient people would be willing to buy). Additionally, the 7D is more ruggedly built than the 7 film camera. Maybe its not as well built as the 9 (don't know), but what specifically would you want in a 9D?

 

and: "You guys probably only shoot pictures of your kids with a 28-200 zoom lens."

 

Hah, Don't even own one.

 

and "As for no sensor more than 6MP, heck a lot of new point & shoots are 7.1."

 

This one statement makes me seriously doubt your credibility. Do you really want a 4x or greater crop factor sensor in a pro camera?

 

 

and "And I'm sure KM is capable of designing a 14MP sensor, they do have engineers on the payroll."

 

More credibility problems, design of a sensor doesn't equal economic production of a sensor. Does K-M even own a CCD production facility? You didn't answer my question above about how much you were willing to pay for a "9D" and what capability you wanted in it.

 

 

Tom

[miguel_rodriguez5]

I rather have the 5D with Antishake. I bet they will upgrade the 7D to something like 10MP and then the 6MP will be the 5D with a cheaper price tag.

On the other hand I agree with the previous post, why on Earth we need a Ferrari to enjoy driving?

I might add that some of them still using brownies can produce better pictures than those using the latest 14MP cameras.

This discussion just reminded me of my times in college when my mates had Michael Jordan?s boots and still some of us with the traditional Converse canvas boots where able to play better basketball. :)

[clinton_abe]

Tom- I would anticipate that a Maxxum 9D Pro, with a 14MP sensor,at this point in time would have a MSRP of around $4000, and a street price of about $3200. I say "at this point in time" as prices could drop. I remember reading a trade publication that came out about a week before Canon released the Digital Rebel. The President of Nikon said in an interview that he didn't see a DSLR being available for less than $2000. You seem to think that KM should fix the 7D before they come out with another camera, isn't that like telling Microsoft that they shouldn't have come out with XP before they fixed 2000? And maybe you should tell Chevy that they should stop selling the Corvette because you'll never use 400HP, and you can't afford one anyway. You may not have a use for a $4000 14MP DSLR, but the world doesn't revolve around you.

[cmphoto1]

Wow. Normally rants like this are reserved for the Leica forum. It is good to see people emotionally involved in Minolta, however.

 

I am sorry to say but a full-frame AS 9D is a pipe dream because you would need to redesign the entire Maxxum lens line. I am one who is more likely to buy a 9D than a 5D, but the technology does not work full-frame.

 

Clinton, your analogies on why Minolta should not wait to introduce a full-frame 9D before fixing the issues with the 7D are, well, a recipe for bankruptcy. To take limited resources (yes, limited) and pull them from a product with known technical issues is to abandon the consumer. I wish KN had the pockets Microsoft does, but if the word on the street were that their current offering of product had issues and they were providing no support or fixes (which is probably what would happen if they were to develop a full-frame AS 9D from their current level), they are not going to sell a 9D or a 5D or any other D for that matter.

 

If it were my decision and my purse strings, I would take available technology and make a 5D, like Miguel said. Go for the sales volume. KM?s world does not revolve around Tom, myself, or any of the other people on this forum. KM?s world revolves around money, and I am willing to bet that Canon sells at least 10 Digital Rebels for every D1s mark whatever.

 

chad

[tom_montemarano]

Clinton wrote:

 

"I would anticipate that a Maxxum 9D Pro, with a 14MP sensor,at this point in time would have a MSRP of around $4000, and a street price of about $3200. "

 

I agree with you.

 

 

and "I say "at this point in time" as prices could drop. I remember reading a trade publication that came out about a week before Canon released the Digital Rebel. The President of Nikon said in an interview that he didn't see a DSLR being available for less than $2000. "

 

Agree again.

 

 

and - "You seem to think that KM should fix the 7D before they come out with another camera, isn't that like telling Microsoft that they shouldn't have come out with XP before they fixed 2000?"

 

Each time I wait for another update download, I think many of us would appreciate it if Microsoft would release a complete product :^). But the reported problems with the 7D appear to be more significant to the actual use of the product, and they appear to be problems that would cross DSLR product lines. If Windows 2000 didn't save correct copies of text documents or if excel added wrong, that affects the basic function of the product. Likewise BF and poor flash exposure. I would expect Microsoft to fix the basic utility of the software before that came out with an "improved" version. Assuming that KM has a limited support system (and in the US I know of only one person at KM who makes sure that things are done correctly), I personally want them to demonstrate that they have the issue under control. Other people may not care, but I know of at least one person who changed systems from Minolta specifically because of a BF problem with the 7D and because he did not care to be part of the research into how to fix it. He actually wanted to photograph with it. I think that if there were a group of people who wanted/needed a $3000 - $4000 camera and it didn't work as they expected, KM would lose them as well. Because if they need it they can't fool afford to around with a problem.

 

 

and "And maybe you should tell Chevy that they should stop selling the Corvette because you'll never use 400HP, and you can't afford one anyway. You may not have a use for a $4000 14MP DSLR, but the world doesn't revolve around you."

 

Never said that the world revolves around me. And there are enough people who let me know who it revolves around, that I never even thought it. Regarding the Chevy. I know of very few people who NEED a 400 HP Corvette, or a HUMMER, or a Lamborghini. (It is a bit humorous to see such cars speeding along at 20mph in Washington DC traffic). However, very few people buy such cars because they NEED them. They buy them because they want them. I'd like a Shelby Cobra. I'm just not willing to pay the price at this time.

 

Cameras are also considered to be tools. People buy them (as with many tools) for a couple of reasons. One is because they NEED them, but they are also purchased because people WANT them for some special reason (maybe they just feel nice). A person's reasons for buying something are valid, because they are buying what they want. I never had a desire for a yellow Hassy, but someone did. So I'd never say that a company shouldn't make something they feel will sell.

 

As I said I don't have either a need for a 14mp, $4000 camera or any influence on KM- plans. They are the ones who know (or think they know) what the market is for a K-M brand $4000 camera or a $800 camera. In the case of a $4000 camera I don't believe that KM would sell enough. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but that's ultimately a question for the company and their stockholders (if they care), not me

 

Tom

[craig_gillette]

Minolta "lost" or gave up on the pro market years ago. We don't know why but the external history is clear. Studebakers were advanced technically as well and a nice history going back to building wagons.

 

KM needs to move agressively into the consumer field where they can get some volume and regain a strong 3rd place. Engineering exercises that have no market aren't worth diverting resources. Instead of pondering why they haven't produced a low interest high-end model, it's more worth wondering what's going on with lenses. Again, the multi-kilobuck models aren't going to appeal to a lot of buyers and if the lens suppliers are going to be Tamron, Sigma and Tokina (and they fit the needs of a lot of Canon and Nikon users too), why go with #3?

[jamesdak]

All this talk about digital and here I am going in the opposite direction. I've recently bought an X-700, a SR-7, and a SRT. The first two are for my collection of "7" series Minolta cameras and the SRT is going to my kid for him to learn on. I too would love a DSLR but right now with the prices so cheap I will be picking up some wonderful old SLRs to play with.

[clinton_abe]

Chad- Why would KM have to redesign the full line of lenses if they came out with a full-size sensor? The lenses were designed to fill a 35mm negative and a full-size sensor would be the same size as a 35mm neg. Canon didn't need to redesign there lenses when they came out with a full-size sensor. KM may have to give up the anti-shake or reduce the amount of anti-shake. There is no law that says every camera has to have the anti-shake. As to it bankrupting the company, do you think cameras are all KM makes? KM makes a wide variety of business equipment in which they make a lot more profit, just as Canon, Nikon, Olympus, and Pentax does. You might want to read their financial statement to see just how undependent they are on a the SLR market. Why would they come out with a SSM 300mm f/2.8 that has a retail of $7000? How many Maxxum 7D users do you think will buy one? It was designed to fit a higher end user.

[andrew robertson]

Don't delude yourself into thinking that Minolta could sell a decent full frame DSLR for

$4000. The dismal failure of Kodak's 14n / SLR/n / SLR/c spells out clearly that people

don't just want a full frame digital camera, they want a GOOD full frame digital camera and

are willing to pay double for the GOOD part of that equation. Canon is content to sell

theirs for $8000, and they own their own chip production facility which makes it easier for

them to source full frame sensors. Nikon is obviously not able to compete with Canon at

this time, and they too have their own chip foundry. I really love the concept of the 7D,

but I do think it spells a certain future for Minolta which doesn't include full frame sensors.

With the lack of modern lenses in Minolta's lineup, though, I don't think it matters either

way. Perhaps they are busy reformulating every single optical design and the actual

mount as well, but I doubt it. That's what it would take to make a full frame anti shake

camera.

[clinton_abe]

Craig- I worked as a sales rep for Minolta, when Minolta last came out with a "professional" camera, the XK and the XK Motor (forget the 9000i). Even back then, everyone wondered why they bothered with a PRO camera. Back then Pros used Nikons or Leicas. When Minolta came out with the Maxxum 9, everyone said "Why bother, PROs used Canon and Nikons." KM doesn't depend on the camera business as they make most of their profits on their business and scientific products, just like Canon, Nikon, Olympus and Pentax does. The camera division is just icing on the cake. In order to be taken SERIOUSLY as a camera company they need to have a PRO camera. Look at Olympus with their E-1. When it came out they went around the country doing seminars to introduce the PRO maket to it. They have a special program for registered pros. They will loan out lenses for the pros to try before they buy, and they give loaners should the body need to go into the shop. Minolta gave me Priority Service when I sent my Maxxum 9 in for upgrades. Pentax doesn't have a PRO level camera and is hardly taken seriously, and depends on its past reputation. KM may only sell a few hundred 9D Pro, but its reputation trickles down thru the rest of the line. GM takes a long time to recoup the investment of developing a new Corvette, so why bother??? They do it to show that they are a serious car company. just as KM will, when it comes out with a 9D Pro. They want to show they are a serious camera company. If you don't like it go buy a Pentax, no one is forcing you to buy one.

[clinton_abe]

Chad and all you other posters who think KM is dependent on the Camera business to make money, here are the figures of KM's financial statement for the first 9 months of their fiscal year (thru December 2004). All these figures are in YEN- Business Technologies- Sales 417B yen, Operating Income- 38.7B yen; Optic Business- Sales 66.5B yen, Oper. Income- 11.2B yen; Medical & Graphic Imaging- Sales 90B yen, Oper. Income- 5.4B yen; Sensing Business- Sales 3.7B yen, Oper. Income- 1.1B yen; Photo Imaging (which includes CAMERAS, film, processing equipment, paper, inks & toner, etc.)- Sales 215.9B yen, Oper. Income- (-2.6B yen). As you can all see, the camera business is not really all that important to KonicaMinolta, they actually lost money in this sector!!! How much of the 215.9B yen, in sales the Photo Imaging made is from cameras, much less SLR's, I don't know. But, like I've said, KM doesn't depend on the camera business. They WILL come out with a 9D Pro not to make money, but to show their technological abilities.