Wedding payments...cancellations....second shooter

nanc1 · November 9, 2015

Hi,

Just wondering what most of you do when it comes to contracts and payments ...cancellations.

Do you do 3 payments?

Down payment to hold the date .....10%, 20% , 50% percent of the package?

Is the last payment before or after the wedding?

Now the big question is.....if the clients cancels at any time before the wedding , do you give back any payments that were paid?

Or what if they have the last payment to pay up and they cancel the wedding( with No re scheduling, its DONE).......do you still ask for the final payment to be paid up, do to loss of a potential booking?

Second Shooter

Do you allow the second shooter to edit the photos or do you as the main photographer take the cards at the end of the day?

PapaTango · November 10, 2015

Hi Nancy! It has been many years since I contracted weddings--working medium format for ceremony/poses, and 35mm for reception and any pre-wedding work such as rehearsals. In the film days, many of us contracted at least a 25% deposit up front--non-refundable on cancellation. This at least covered the cost of materials purchased and the initial consultation time spent with the client.

Consider it "time is money" and if they bail out your committed time could have been allocated to another client or project. I always did it in thirds. 25% at the time of contract, 25% at proof selection, and the remaining 50% at the delivery of the package. I did know some photographers that did not bill anything until the final delivery...

As to an assistant doing casuals, I always collected the film at the completion of the shoot. I see nothing different with digital media--as it is the photographer's responsibility to maintain control of the media--whatever the format--all the way through the delivery. I would never let anyone edit images for any kind of project--again, custody of the media and full creative control.

shawn_mertz · November 10, 2015

assuming second shooter is part of your package, you should provide cards for second shooter to use, and collect them that night. You are the one that has the responsibility of delivering the photos to the customer. This is something you need to make clear to the second shooter when talking about the job.

That said i always give them copies of the pictures down the road so they can put a few in their portfolio.

1. I want them to care about what they are shooting

2. conditions apply they don't claim they booked it. they don't contact customer, they don't put any of it on primary website without talking with me about it.

3 Advantage to them. they gain by having someone more experienced at weddings seeing every picture they take. now you can not just critique the photo, but coach them. you were with them and can talk in great detail about the day with the second shooter.

pavl_kay · November 10, 2015

There are two methods to pay my retaining fees, as quoted from my <a href="http://blog.pavelkounine.com/wedding-photography-fees/">wedding photography pricing</a> page:

Option 1: a retainer payable for 30% of the fees or 1000 dollars, whichever is greater. The balance is due 14 days prior to your wedding date. Both the retainer and balance are calculated before tax, so HST is payable on both figures.

Option 2: a retainer payable for 100% of the total fees. If you choose this option you’ll receive 10% off the listed price. This option is only available for couples whose weddings are two or more months from the time of booking.

</blockquote>

In both cases, the fees paid at the time of reservation are not refundable. The main reason is straightforward, upon reserving a date with clients, I refuse to entertain all subsequent inquiries for that particular day (or days, if it's a multi-day event or requires long distance travel – which further stresses the need no refunds). If no retainers were required, a couple could cancel a wedding for any reason, which would result in me losing not only their commission, but all of the potential clients I had turned away in the process.

Of course, there are certain circumstances that merit leniency, such as when one partner has suffered a tragic event or has died. In that case, I'm prepared to return all fees paid and suffer the loss. I have a heart, after all.

john_h.1 · November 10, 2015

"If no retainers were required, a couple could cancel a wedding for any reason, which would result in me losing not only their commission, but all of the potential clients I had turned away in the process."

</blockquote>

If they do so in advance and you fail to mitigate damages by making a good faith effort to book a replacement or arbitrarily turning down a replacement booking, you will find that a court will cut the amount you are allowed to keep. The further in advance the cancellation, the worse for you it will be. Automatic 100% liquidated damage clauses absent a last minute cancellation are not going to fly.

William Michael · November 10, 2015

what most of you do when it comes to contracts and payments ...cancellations.

</blockquote>

When we shot Weddings the Clients could pay in installments if they wanted to and most did in two or three payments. For a period of time I did have a schedule, but I dumped it because it was too restrictive. I made it simpler - the first payment was at signing and the final payment was required before the Wedding. A few wanted to pay in three payments, that was fine by me. On the other hand, we were a Photography Business not a Bank and there were a couple of people who wanted to pay in dribs and drabs and that was not a suitable fit for us.

I still shoot Commissioned Portraiture (no Weddings) – for this work the total fee is paid in advance at signing the contract.

Now the big question is.....if the clients cancels at any time before the wedding , do you give back any payments that were paid?

</blockquote>

Depends. And it depends quite different to what is written in the contact: I had a Wedding where there was a death in the family I refunded all monies, no questions, no caveats.

As a general comment about whatever is written in the contract and your marketing regarding: deposits/retainers/fees/refundable/non-refundable – etc. I think that it is very important that the rules that you make up for your business and the terminology used are both in line with any applicable (consumer/retail/business/tax) legislation that is applicable in your region/state/country.

For a simple example, under some legislation a “deposit” might not be legally “non-refundable” in all situations - but a “sitting fee” or “fee for retaining services to be provided on Tuesday 2nd December . . . ”, might be.

Re-iterating that different countries/states will have different applicable legislation.

Second Shooter Do you allow the second shooter to edit the photos or do you as the main photographer take the cards at the end of the day?

</blockquote>

No client’s editing was done by my second wedding shooters. All seconds were/are employees. They are supplied the medium (be it film or digital) on which to record.

I still use a second Photographer, and only recently does she use all her own gear and that’s only sometimes: that’s probably a residue from owning a company that owned and ran a W&P Studio, as opposed to being a business entity as a Photographer acting as a Sole Trader.

Some Wedding Photographers outsource the Post Production. That’s not new, that’s how probably 99% worked with film. I think that outsourcing (Digital) Post Production is becoming a growing trend – certainly there is more discussion about it and there (seems to be) a growth in that particular industry: it can be very inexpensive and the results from some Post Production facilities are extraordinarily high quality for the unit cost.

Whilst it is always a good idea to harness opinion of what others do, it is probably better to also ask why they do it: there are certainly business models that would suit a second shooter doing the post production of the cards they shoot, in fact there would be a business model where it would be suitable to have the second shooter do all the Post Processing of the entire Wedding.

For a period of time around 2004~2006 we employed a woman specifically for the purpose of Digital Post Production - there were economies of scale, mainly concerning when shooting up to 5 or 6 weddings on any one weekend having one person to oversee the entire Studio's output was important and justified (both as a business and an artistic choice).

Today, if I were shooting weddings, (as a Sole Trader/Photographer), I would seriously consider having someone (suitably capable and responsive to instruction concerning desired outcomes) to do all the digital post production for me: there would be different economies of scale for me in this situation - mainly applicable to the facts that I am better suited personally and better suited for the business to have a camera in my hand and/or be out and about with people, than locked inside behind a Computer and Studio Monitor.

WW

ShunCheung · November 10, 2015

It is a good idea for the primary photographer to provide memory cards for secondary photographers to use and then collect them at the end of the job (end of the day). However, in this era of camera bodies with dual memory cards, I would assume that those secondary photographers will also have a copy of their images for their use. Even without dual memory cards, those other photographers can always use some portable drive with a card reader to quickly make a copy of the images they create. I would not assume that as the primary photographer, you will have the only copy of all images in the end.

nanc1 · November 10, 2015

Great advice, thank you.

I do agree if there is a death in the family to give back the

payments.

But what I'm wondering is

What if they just decide to No longer stay together.

Besides the first payment, do you give the other 2 payments

back?

Thanks

William Michael · November 10, 2015

"But what I'm wondering is What if they just decide to No longer stay together. Besides the first payment, do you give the other 2 payments back?"

</blockquote>

Sorry I thought there was an implied response to that general question but re-reading what I wrote it’s not really all that clear.

The overview is our Contracts were quite clear that at ‘X weeks’ prior to the date full and final payment had to be made or the contract was rendered void. It was also quite clear that, that final payment was NOT re-fundable.

The ‘X weeks’ changed but hovered around 6 weeks went to 2 week for awhile and then we settled on 4 weeks and kept it there for many years.

John H. referred to the obligation (on us) to make good effort to find (other) work should the Client withdraw and if replacement work were found some of the money paid might be refundable to the original Client. A similar precedent applies where I work, but if the client withdrew within four weeks from the wedding date, because the way our business functioned and especially the history of our bookings and that timeline and the planning procedure, it would be very unlikely that any Magistrate (Judge in a Petty Court) or Commissioner (Arbiter in Fair Work & Consumer tribunal) would conclude that a ‘replacement job’ would be able to be acquired by us.

In any case withdrawal from the contract only occurred three times I think, two being before the final payment date and I can’t recall the exact details of those two, but I am pretty sure both were rescheduled, so we just carried the money forward to the new contract.

My ‘advice’ is to set the functionality of your business to reduce the likelihood of the eventuality that you’re asking about becoming an issue for your business. Obviously no-one has a crystal ball, so we can’t see if the B&G are going to disband before the wedding but there are some clues, so it could be wise to pass on those jobs where there are red flags.

Obviously we had a protocol within our business functionality whereby the final payment date limited our ability to find replacement work: but of-course we would still have to execute our contractual rights to keep the money if it were asked to be returned – which could render sting of poor publicity to the business – hence point one above, maybe be more choosy about your client base, in the first place.

A nuance of consumer law (where I work) could actually benefit the Photographer in the hypothetical situation that you outline: in our consumer law, “change of mind” by the customer does NOT warrant any replacement or refund.

I mention this for two purposes:

> the first is to reinforce the point about your business procedures adhering to (or at least you being aware of) the laws which are relevant;

> secondly (assuming you, Nancy are in the USA) it occurs to me that there is a perception by many customers from/in the USA that a change of their mind allows them the choice of a refund or a replacement.

I appreciate that this mostly applies to goods, not services, but it might be that USA based Photographers would have to work a little harder making it quite clear as to what is and what is not, refundable.

WW

john_h.1 · November 11, 2015

As to U.S. Law, it varies from state to state. They generally require good faith effort to mitigate of damages before a vendor can keep 100% of a contract price. There are ways to address or avoid that. One is to have a contract clause that allows no refund for expenses incurred prior to cancellation. A court may protect such expenditures from refund in some states but it is good to have it spelled out just in case. The second typical method is to have a liquidated damages clause which is designed to resolve uncertainty over what is a fair refund when there is a mitigation obligation. It is hard to measure exactly how much, if any, money should be refunded if mitigation is unsuccessful. It may be easy in a scenario like William describes. He can easily show the futility of rebooking one month out. But what about three or four months? How likely is rebooking? If challenged in court, the tribunal would have to make its best estimate based on evidence presented. If you set up "liquidated damages" in advance, the parties know what the amount will be at a given time. Most states require the amount to be what is a 'reasonable" measure or estimate of what the damages would be at a given time as seen at the date the contract was formed. Others also factor in what appears reasonable the time of cancellation or breach as well as the formation date. Since wedding contract losses are less risky and easier to replace with new clients far away from the wedding date, liquidated damages should be less then those that will arise near a wedding date. Hypothetically, a contract could require a one third fee down to book and also have that amount as the liquidated damages. Which makes sense because the photographer has possession of it. It is easier to keep funds in hand than to collect funds from a cancelling client. A contract could have a one third second payment a few months out and a similar damages clause. It may have a final 1/3rd payment right before the wedding with 100% damages clause. Obviously re booking is not possible and it is much more likely a court will allow a full forfeit of the contract price at that time. This doesn't change because a death or other misfortune led to the cancellation. But a backlash and negative publicity will ensue in that event if a photographer were to keep the liquidated damages because society sees that as immoral even though the cause of cancellation is still a contract breach. But keeping expenses already paid out is more forgivable. If the contract said you have to travel and pay for lodging and you can't get that money back from the hotel, you shouldn't have to eat that expense. Just make sure its in the contract that expenses incurred are not refunded. You don't see caterers have to forfeit custom food they bought for a cancelled event that no one else will buy or use. Photographers should not have to live with double losses for refunding money they already spent either. So that's it... An expense clause and a cancellation refund clause based on reasonable ability to seek replacement work at various (usually three) dates. See a local lawyer to draft it up correctly.

ShunCheung · November 11, 2015

I do agree if there is a death in the family to give back the payments.

</blockquote>

In that case, unless it is the bride or groom passes away suddenly, typically the wedding will be rescheduled to a later date rather than cancelled altogether. Unless the photographer has a conflict with the new date, the deposit can be applied to the new date.

William Michael · November 11, 2015

I do agree if there is a death in the family to give back the payments. (Nancy)

In that case, unless it is the bride or groom passes away suddenly, typically the wedding will be rescheduled to a later date rather than cancelled altogether. (Shun)

</blockquote>

What happened in the case I mentioned was that a close relative died a few weeks out from the Wedding, it was the Bride who contacted me to tell me the Wedding had been cancelled, although at the time I didn't really think that "cancelled" was what she meant literally: she was very upset and also in shock and certainly did not have the capacity to approach or discuss any of our contractual and financial arrangements.

In this situation I was absolutely in a position to control the procedure and my intention was to remove all that burden from the Bride. Simply telling her that there would be no problem returning all the money to her gave her that space to attend to other things which were more pressing. That telephone conversation was very short. That afternoon we express posted a refund cheque and my handwritten note expressing our condolences and an open invitation to come in and chat about any future function where we could be of assistance. A couple of days after the funeral she telephoned me to reassure me that she was always going ahead with the wedding- I told her I knew that - we had a nice chat and we photographed her wedding about 6 months later.

Much of being a successful Wedding Photographer is about the mechanism of business - and much of that mechanism is about people management and much of people management is about working out (quickly) exactly what their needs and requirements are; those needs might change very quickly - because often people simply don't articulate those needs and requirements very clearly - My Bride just needed her own space and to not worry about loosing the money she had paid to me, the simple solution to that was to give it all back to her - immediately with no caveat. I had very little doubt that she was "My Client" throughout the whole unfortunate procedure and I think having that perspective is very important to achieve positive outcomes.

WW

nanc1 · November 11, 2015

Great info, many Thanks.

And I'm from Canada.

So Mich to think about, I've done

a few weddings and had a small

contract that I did up.

And yes I had a nightmare of a

client that kept changing the

dates and even postponed to the

next year. I was worried if they

would cancel completely but they

got married and everything went

well.

This why I was asking that

question.

Thanks

steve m smith · November 12, 2015

An expense clause and a cancellation refund clause based on reasonable ability to seek replacement work at various (usually three) dates. See a local lawyer to draft it up correctly.

</blockquote>

Further to this, if money has been accepted to retain services for something which is susequently cancelled and the photographer has managed to get another booking for the same day, is he obliged to return the money for the original service which he is now no longer able to provide?

weareonewedding · November 12, 2015

In terms of payments, we do it slightly different.

We ask for a 25% deposit to secure the date.

We then don't ask for final payment until after the wedding date, in our contract it says 14days after the wedding date although we never follow up on this. If they read the contract and pay good, if they don't no biggy. We then show them a slideshow online of a few of their photos, ask for the final payment before delivering the images on dvd. Once paid we send over.

We actually use the no payment until after the wedding as a sales technique as well.

We also have one final clause in the contract that states if they wish to cancel a minimum 12 week notice period before the wedding must be given. If it is not then the full agreed amount is due.

Hope this helps

john_h.1 · November 12, 2015

Good question Steve. Is is often the case in the U.S., it depends on what state the event occurs. Usually, however, a proper liquidated damages clause will be upheld. Without one, it is extremely unlikely any paid funds can be kept except to cover expenses paid and a difference, if any, where the subsequent booking is less than the prior.

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Wedding payments...cancellations....second shooter

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