M4 or M6?

[shambrick007]

Hello all.

<p>

Well, all of the ebay wheeling and dealing is done, and I have cash

in hand. I�m about ready to jump back into the M system, but I�m

torn as to what body to purchase. I�ve narrowed my choices down to

the original M4 or a (non-TTL) M6.

<p>

The facts:

- I�ll be shooting with a Voigtlander 15mm, a Summicron 50mm, and

when funds allow, I plan on adding a 90mm Summicron.

- The internal light meter of the M6 is not that big of a deal since

I usually make handheld incidence readings.

- The 28mm frames line of the M6 would be nice, but so would the

higher magnification of the M4.

<p>

I used to have a M2, and I guess I�m looking for that classic �M

feel�, and for some (probably stupid) reason, I�m afraid that may be

lacking in the M6. Re-reading the above, it sounds like I should go

for the M4, but I�d prefer a black camera ;-) - sorry, I can�t

afford a black M4!

<p>

We�re expecting our first child in March, so this will be my last big

toy for a while, so I wanna choose correctly.

<p>

Thanks in advance.

[al_kaplan1]

Buy a roll of 3M Scotch black photographic masking tape to cover your chrome M4. Black cameras used to be unusual, look real "Pro", and everybody wanted one. Now it's easier to make black plastic cameras than silver plastic cameras. Everybody can have a black camera. With your chosen 15/50/90 lens assortment why not just get an M3 body?

[shambrick007]

Thanks Al.

<p>

I prefer the rapid rewind of the M4/M6 over the M3.

[jerry_pfile]

Sheldon,

 

If you're taking time to meter handheld, lack of rapid rewind shouldn't be too much of an impediment.

 

The VF magnification on the M4 is the same as that of the M6 classic in all but a handful with the 0.85. The 0.72 mag M6 just squeezes in the 28 lines.

 

AL hit it on the head. Take your time and find a nice M3. Especially give your chosen focal lengths.

 

Best,

 

Jerry

[al_kaplan1]

For about forty bucks you can buy a rewind crank for an M2/M3.

[jay_.]

I have an M4 and I love it--just not as much as the M6 or my M7's. I agree that the slightly larger framelines are nice (there's no difference in magnification, Leica just made all the frames smaller and less accurate at infinity in order to squeeze in the 28 frames). If you go for the M4 make sure it's had a CLA from a reputable repairer within the last 5 years--though I'd now give the same advice regarding the M6 Classic. Certainly if you want a meterless body, there's none finer IMO than the M4. If you want an M6, personally I'd jump on a clearance M6TTL if at all possible financially, or at the very least a used one. They're just not that much more than the Classics but they're newer and the shutter mechanism is capable of more precision (about the same as the M4 BTW, which has more adjustment potential in the hands of a tech who cares). If you wear glasses, factor in $70 for an M6-type rubber eyepiece for the M4...a lot cheaper than constant replacement of your glasses and a lot nicer than those ridiculous stick-ons. Remember also that the M4 has no hot-shoe for flash, so you'll need an adaptor or a flash with a PC cord. And the M4 can't take the motor winders. The M6 has no selftimer. The devil's in the details ;>)

[eliot]

"The 28mm frames line of the M6 would be nice, but so would the higher magnification of the M4."

 

The M4 has the same magnification as the original M6 (0.72X). If you have a bit of collectoritis in you, the M4 is a classic. But as a user, you are better off with a very recent M6TTL. (even if you don't care about the TTL feature, the TTL version is more recent and less likely to need a CLA).

 

Remember that as good as the M4 is, the last one was issued in 1975, making it a thirty year old camera. It will almost certainly need a CLA at the minimum, and may need more work. I had a shutter problem on my chrome M4, a $ 175 repair. If you can get a camera that's 3 years old, you will be better off than with one that is 30 years old.

 

Not to mentiona few other things:

 

The M4 had no hot shoe, to use any flash unit, you will need a pc cord. The M4 does not take a winder or motor (unless it is specially modified or a rare M4-M or M4-MOT version, in which case it will work with the even rarer E. Leitz NY motor, which will cost approximately $ 3000 if you can find one). If you ever want a 28 or 75 mm lens, the M6 has but the M4 does not have the framelines.

[al_kaplan1]

Jeepers, you make it sound like a camera is old at 30! Mine must be ancient. A PC cord isn't a bad thing, you know. I regularly hold an M in one hand and my 283 in the other so the flash is always directly over the lens regardless of camera orientation. Been doing it for years. That shoe is for a viewfinder, like when I put a 35 on my M3.

[rgh]

The M4 has the better viewfinder. The 90mm frame in better outlined (more of it) for use with that Summicron you would like. All the frames 35/50/90 show more of what the lens is really taking. The viewfinder has a little less clutter without the 28/75 frames there, which I like. If you do get a 28mm, get an external finder, they are bright and fast to use (Voigtlander makes a new metal finder that's good at about $150), or just use the very outside of the viewfinder frame. Also, the rangefinder patch is less prone to flare on the M4.

 

The M6 is a good camera, but it just is not made the same as the classic Wetzlar cameras of the mid 70s and earlier. There really is a difference in 'feel'. If you don't need the M6 meter, why buy an M6? As for repair, at the age the M6 is now, both cameras are going to probably need a general CLA if it hasn't been done recently. The M4 is a beautifully made classic camera. The non-TTL M6 they just call 'classic'.

[marinus1]

it sounds like a M4-P to me. Had a M4 that got stolen and bought the M4-P. it's black and i think still has that classic feel. Has an 28mm viewfinder although less bright than the M4

[karl_georg_wolf]

If I were you I would give the M6 a try ... Your photography will be much more consistent due to the lightmeter. I had many more keepers after I switched to the LEICA-M6.

 

And since I have it, my nonmetered bodies don´t get used much anymore.

 

In case you want your camera without a meter: open the battery compartment and take that annoying little thingy out. And on you can go with a LEICA without a meter.

 

Good luck in your decision.

[giles_poilu]

Sheldon, I have always preferred the older non-metered bodies and would love an M4. I finally bought an M6 last month and sold it after one week - I just could not get on with the fiddly in-camera meter after years of incidence meter use. Without viewfinder info of shutter speed etc it is just too slow and fiddly and distracting.

 

If you also prefer working with an external meter don't waste money on the M6, it will not feel anything like the M2.

 

A good chrome M4 should be less than an M6 (certainly in the UK) and with both needing a CLA the M4, IMO, will give you a better value purchase, in terms of quality, prestige joy of ownership and long term value.

 

I would like an M4 but it would have to be black, for that reason I am sticking with my M4-P, I have a really nice example that was a giveaway price and is 100% reliable and beautifully put together. It does not feel exactly like an M2 but far more so than an M6 does.

 

As I have decided to (hopefully) keep it for life it is currently with Dan Goldberg being modified. An M5 delayed action is being fitted, the 75 and 135 frames being removed, an M2/3 style wind lever fitted and the camera CLA'd. This should give me my ideal Leica.

 

As an aside I am expecting my first child in April and concur with your spending thoughts!

[john_r._fulton_jr.]

Once your little one gets to runnin around you aren't going to have time for

much of anything. Especially , carefully taken incident readings. You'll barely

have time to focus. Get an M6.

[giles_poilu]

What rot! Take one incident reading, zone focus and snap away. I suppose with an M6 as they run around you will be matching up those little arrows and changing settings every time they move a few feet?

[john_collier2]

As you can see opinions vary; sometimes violently! Buy the best example you can afford and, if you decide you must have the other, you will have no trouble selling it for what you paid for it. If you decide on an M6 then try to find the newest you can so that you do not have to get a CLA any time soon. If you buy an M4 you should count on having to get a CLA. Perhaps you will not have to but, for budgeting purposes, you would be smarter add the cost of the CLA to the price. If you find one that has been recently CLAed, make sure it was done by a reliable source and there is paper work to prove it. For example: Lisle-Kelco, the Canadian Leica distributor, is poor place to have M CLAs done while Kindermann Canada, the former Canadian Leica distributor, is one the best Leica repair places in the world. Opinions vary on Leica NJ...

 

Good luck and remember it is about photography NOT cameras and lenses!

[john_r._fulton_jr.]

>>>What rot! Take one incident reading, zone focus and snap away. I

suppose with an M6 as they run around you will be matching up those little

arrows and changing settings every time they move a few feet? -- Giles Poilu ,

January 15, 2003; 09:17 A.M. Eastern <<<

 

I know it's an amazing concept but in-camera light readings are faster. Also in

camera focusing is more accurate. The technique you describe will get

out-of-focus pictures in addition to potentially poorly exposed. Actually, for a

fast moving child at home an F100 would be better. BTW, for photographs of

children be sure to get down on their level. Sit on the floor. The "adult looking

down" perspective is a poor one.

[giles_poilu]

"The technique you describe will get out-of-focus pictures in addition to potentially poorly exposed."<p>Sorry John but it will not and I have to disagree! Incident readings are far more accurate, the light at home should not be constantly changing and zone focussing is perfectly capable of producing correctly focussed pictures. If <u>you</u> can follow a moving child, simultaneously altering the light setting AND altering the focus (very difficult with a RF for an erratically moving subject) AND get well composed pictures you are a much better photographer than most of us!

 

It's the same concept as fast street photography and has worked for years. People did manage to take pictures before in-camera meters came along - there is a reason most pro's own an external meter. With a bit of thought your photos will be perfectly exposed and focussed.<p>There is no reason why an F100 (or any other AF SLR) should produce better results, AF can have just the same problems keeping focus as a RF and will limit your composition.

[jay_.]

I hear you. Despite my Leicas and love of them, when I'm faced with shooting small children I'd rather use my Rebel 2000 than an M. Yeah, yeah, "it just takes practice". Two generations of toddlers has grown into adulthood and I still don't have enough practice to do it consistently, but with multi-point AF it's "in the can".

[leica_phil]

Jay,

 

The Rebel 2000 with the 28-105 USM is THE kid/toddler camera!

[jackson loi]

Sheldon -

If you care about longetivity and cosmetic of the camera body, you should read this about brass vs zinc top plate:

http://nemeng.com/leica/042b.shtml

All M6, spare the black paint and titanium models, have zinc top plates, while the M4 uses brass. Each has its own advantage as asserted in the link. I hope this information helps you to make a rather difficult choice.

[ray_moth]

Why not split the difference and go for an M5? ;-)

 

Seriously, I think only you can answer your question. There are more similarities than differences between M4 and M6, so you should go for the model YOU prefer (with all the caveats others have mentioned if you choose an M4).