Choosing an Ebony 4x5 Camera

fredlee70x7 · December 30, 2002

I recently follow this LF forum as I'm thinking of going to this

segment of photography. I'm eying on Ebony as most reviews point to

its ruggedness, beautiful finishing quality and functionality.

There are many different 4x5 models and wonder which one is better

suit my needs. I mostly do landscape (wide to mid-tele) and some

still life. Also not decided if a folding or non-folding is better.

Any comments.

leighperry · December 30, 2002

When I was assessing the Ebony range, I made up a table of features. You might find it useful. Prices were from Robert White and may be out of date.

<tr>

</td>

</td>

</td>

min

</td>

max

</td>

front

</td>

front

</td>

front

</td>

front

</td>

front

</td>

rear

</td>

rear

</td>

rear

</td>

rear

</td>

rear

</td>

drop

</td>

</td>

</td>

</td>

</tr>

<tr>

Model

</td>

Price

</td>

weight

</td>

lens

</td>

lens

</td>

rise

</td>

axis

tilt

</td>

base

tilt

</td>

shift

</td>

swing

</td>

rise

</td>

axis

tilt

</td>

base

tilt

</td>

shift

</td>

swing

</td>

bed

</td>

</td>

</td>

</td>

</tr>

<tr>

SW45

</td>

£1,445.00

</td>

1.5

</td>

35

</td>

180

</td>

+60mm -25mm

</td>

+20deg -20deg

</td>

</td>

+38mm -38mm

</td>

+45deg -45deg

</td>

+50mm -0

</td>

</td>

</td>

</td>

</td>

</td>

SW

</td>

wide nonfolding

</td>

designed for use with wide-angle lenses

</td>

</tr>

<tr>

RSW45

</td>

£995.00

</td>

1.5

</td>

35

</td>

180

</td>

+65mm -25mm

</td>

+30deg -30deg

</td>

</td>

</td>

</td>

</td>

</td>

</td>

</td>

</td>

</td>

SW

</td>

wide nonfolding

</td>

SW45 minus horz movements or rear rise, same weight

</td>

</tr>

<tr>

SV45TE

</td>

£1,950.00

</td>

2.7

</td>

47

</td>

800

</td>

+42mm -20mm

</td>

+30deg -30deg

</td>

+30deg -90deg

</td>

+32mm -32mm

</td>

+20deg -20deg

</td>

+45mm -0

</td>

+20deg -20deg

</td>

+90deg -30deg

</td>

+58mm -58mm

</td>

+20deg -20deg

</td>

</td>

TE

</td>

Ebony & Titanium

</td>

</tr>

<tr>

SV45Ti

</td>

to order

</td>

2.1

</td>

47

</td>

800

</td>

+42mm -20mm

</td>

+30deg -30deg

</td>

+30deg -90deg

</td>

+32mm -32mm

</td>

+20deg -20deg

</td>

+45mm -0

</td>

+20deg -20deg

</td>

+90deg -30deg

</td>

+58mm -58mm

</td>

+20deg -20deg

</td>

</td>

Ti

</td>

Ebony & Mahogany (Lightweight)

</td>

</tr>

<tr>

SV45U2

</td>

£2,750.00

</td>

3.15

</td>

35

</td>

800

</td>

+42mm -20mm

</td>

+30deg -30deg

</td>

+30deg -90deg

</td>

+32mm -32mm

</td>

+20deg -20deg

</td>

+45mm -0

</td>

+20deg -20deg

</td>

+90deg -30deg

</td>

+50mm -50mm

</td>

+20deg -20deg

</td>

30deg

</td>

</td>

Asymmetrical rear tilt and swing axes positioned on

focusing screen

</td>

</tr>

<tr>

RW45 III

</td>

£1,145.00

</td>

1.7

</td>

65

</td>

500

</td>

+45mm -20mm

</td>

+30deg -30deg

</td>

+20deg -90deg

</td>

</td>

+20deg -20deg

</td>

</td>

+20deg -20deg

</td>

+90deg -20deg

</td>

</td>

+10deg -10deg

</td>

20deg

</td>

</td>

Mahogany and titanium, folding

</td>

</tr>

<tr>

45S

</td>

£1,695.00

</td>

2.1

</td>

35

</td>

400

</td>

+50mm -25mm

</td>

+20deg -20deg

</td>

</td>

+38mm -38mm

</td>

+45deg -45deg

</td>

+50mm -0

</td>

+20deg -20deg

</td>

</td>

+60deg -60deg

</td>

+20deg -20deg

</td>

</td>

S

</td>

nonfolding

</td>

</td>

</tr>

</table>

foraker · December 30, 2002

Fred,

To answer that question you need to give some information regarding the type of LF work you are going to do. Landscape photography often, but not always, requires many fewer movements than architectural or product photography (can you do without front standard swing and shift, say?). Can you do without a lot of bellows draw? (I find I do mostly wide angle to normal work and don't really miss having long lenses). Is weight a concern (will you be backpacking or just driving your camera around)? I thought long and hard about it and, in the end, got the RSW45 rather than the SW45. I couldn't justify the price difference for what you were getting. I'm very happy with it, esp with the Acratech ballhead. Much much ligther than my previous Wisner/Kirk ballhead combination. Very quick to set up. I just leave a 150mm lens on. I absolutely DO NOT miss having to unfold my camera and screw things down when I'm in a hurry.

foraker · December 30, 2002

Well, I'm an idiot for not reading his post completely. I'd recommend the RSW45 highly but I'd say if you do still life work at all you might be better off getting the SW45. You'd need to run a test and see how you feel about not having front standard swing and absolutely no rear movements.

mark_blackman1 · December 31, 2002

Leigh,

Are you sure about your maximum lens length values? My RW45 will only handle up to 340 mm (or 410 with tilts) wherease you have 500mm? Or are you assuming use of a telephoto lens?

paul_owen · December 31, 2002

Without knowing exactly what you shoot and which lenses you prefer I would recommend the 45S as a good all rounder. A non-folder, so quick and easy to set up. It will handle a good range of lenses and has all the movements you will need. Like all Ebony cameras, it is very stable and will serve you well!!! Welcome to the world of LF !!

leighperry · December 31, 2002

Mark, I got my information from either Ebony's site or Robert White's (<a href="http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/ebony.htm">http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/ebony.htm</a>), where they confirm your figures and 500mm telephoto.

My table gathered information from those sites so I could get a feel for what each model offered. I hope it is useful.

george_hart1 · December 31, 2002

Fred, I recommend that you choose your lenses first and your camera second, because in LF your camera's specs, eg min and max extensions, are normally determined by your lens requirements, not vice-versa.

I have the Ebony 45S and I can second Paul's recommendation for this camera as being a good all-rounder. Wide and normal focal lengths are handled well, better than on a folding camera. By "mid-tele" I take it that you mean the equivalent of 75-90 mm in small format, which is not quite as easy on a non-folder but perfectly possible. For example, the 300 mm tessar/dialyte lenses, which are popular for landscape use, require an extender panel on the 45S, but they are light and the camera copes just fine at near max extension. If you do a lot of still life you should consider a monorail, and I recommend that you look at Jack Dykinga's web site and book for a good example of how a monorail can also be used in the field. Then it's down to personal requirements and preferences, and I'm afraid that I find a wooden camera nicer to use than a metal monorail, which for me is a bit "industrial"!

andrew_richards1 · December 31, 2002

I have been enjoying Joe Cornish's recently published book, 'First Light' which is strongly recommended. All the 4x5 shots in the book were shot with one of four Ebony cameras. RSW, SW, 45S and SV45U with the SW easily outnumbering the others and the 45S a distant second. Note, these are all non-folding models and I must say this would be my preference i.e. ability to leave a lens mounted on the camera and faster set up. I think the RSW is just too basic and the SV45U is overblown and more than a KG heavier than the SW.

carsten_boettcher · December 31, 2002

Hi Fred,

I�m in the same boat. I also consider buying an 4x5 Ebony mainly for landscape work, but I�m also interested in still life and architecture. I have found the range of Ebony models

truly amazing but at the same time confusing, esp. for a LF newcomer.

Therefore, I sent two postings to the forum (on 11/30 and 12/08) and got a bunch of very helpful answers. If you like, you can check them under �Older Questions�..Cameras�.

Though I still not decided which model to buy, I have narrowed my choice down to the 45S or 45SU. Both are non folders, very quick and easy to set up and as far as I have learned,

especially suitable for shooting landscapes and/or architecture.

Of course, for landscape photography they are somewhat overkill but, IMO, will not limit your creativity if you grow up with your camera.

BTW, my dream camera is the 45SU but I still wonder if I can justify spending another 1000$ just for the convenience of asymmetric tilts and swings.

Apart from the contributions of the forum members, I strongly recommend to read Richard Sexton�s thoughts on folders/non folders and the benefits of asymmetric movements.

They can be found on the Ebony website (I assume that you have already checked them !?).

GOOD LUCK and keep me/us informed !!!

Carsten

michael_alpert1 · December 31, 2002

Fred,

In general, landscape photography demands some front rise and some front tilt, with rear rise and some shift also very useful. Architectural photography demands more rise and a greater ability to use shorter wide-angle lenses (i.e., a more flexible bellows when compressed). Either the 45S or the 45SU will give you what you need in that area, as will (I think) the RW45. Still life is a bit more demanding, but the tilt in all Ebony cameras should be fine. The limiting factor is bellows length. The chart that Leigh presented is somewhat misleading in that it conflates normal and telephoto lenses. It would be better to look at Ebony's catalog. In order to acheive an image with a 1:1 ratio of reproduction, you will need to double the focal length of the lens you are using. The bellows of the 45S is 275mm, which seems a little short to me. You can, however, purchase a back extender for the camera, which will increase the bellows length by 90mm. Since for still life you will probably will be using a lens no longer than the 150mm normal length (for depth of field and other reasons) the 365mm bellows of the 45S (with back extender) should be enough. I have a 45SU with 365mm "universal" bellows ("universal" means that it compresses well when using short lenses). If it is feasible for you to purchase the 45SU, I recommend it. All the Ebony camera are well made. Your choice of camera needs to be based on what limitations in movement you can live with. As was already stated, you should start by deciding which focal lengths you are likely to be using.

fredlee70x7 · December 31, 2002

Thanks to all wise men. I will certainly do more homework, especially those books as recommended. Will post more when I decide. Happy new year to all.

steve_hamley · December 31, 2002

Fred,

Michael Alpert is giving good advice.

I use the SV45U because it folds and I use longer lenses. I do not do architectural work.

Can you justify the extra cost for the asymmetric movements? Yes, you just don't know it yet ;^)

Thanks!

Steve

jeffrey_scott · December 31, 2002

I went through a similar decision making process and ended up with the 45SU because I did not want to buy another camera down the road. Yes it is worth all the money I paid and then some because of the flexibility of this particular model and ease of set up. It will handle extreme WA(35mm) to 500 tele lenses without having to buy any accessories such as extension backs or top hat lensboards (something you will need to do with the 45S) and compresses very compactly for backpacking. The extra expense for the asymmetrical back and non-folding features are things I justified as these make field work a breeze and I am not wanting for anything. As a long term investment spend as much as you can and not have to say in the future to yourself, "if only I got the..." You won't be sorry you got the 45SU, it should be thought of as a final purchase, then you only have to think about image making and not about equuipment.

leighperry · December 31, 2002

My main motivation in preparing the table was to assess the range of movements available in each model. I found the Ebony range and designations a bit bewildering at first, and this helped me shake some sense out of it.

The 'lens' columns were included to give me an idea of which focal lengths could be used with each camera. The table does not include bellows extension measurements.

upscan · January 1, 2003

Leigh: excellent data. Ebony owes you (as we all).

Now please forgive my lack of knowledge about these cameras: pictures show the groundglass unprotected. Do I assume that Ebony sells a folding focusing bellows or some door to the GG for protection? I can't believe that people put these things in back packs without anything to protect the GG.

Thank you.

leighperry · January 1, 2003

Julio, I can only speak for my own SW45 -- the only Ebony I have ever seen -- but I imagine the others are the same.

The SW45 came with 2 plastic inserts. One is a dummy lensboard. The other clips in over the groundglass to protect it. You can see the latches on either side of the groundglass in this shot from the Robert White <a href="http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/ebony.htm">Ebony page</a>.

cxc · January 1, 2003

My ideal Ebony also falls into the unfortunately large gap between the 45s and the 45su: I think the 270mm draw of the 45s is too short, but I don't want to pay the premium for asymmetrical movements just to obtain the extra draw. Though extension backs and tubes may work fine, they are singularly unappealling, suggesting that the orginal design was deficient, and complicating setup, use, and packing.

CXC

cxc · January 1, 2003

One more thought on the 45s. As a wide-angle freak, I am often put off particular cameras that require extra stuff and fussing to accommodate a short lens. The 45s has displaced that requirement to the other end, for long lenses. Since I only use long lenses occasionally, and wides constantly, this is the perfect camera for me. Maybe I'll buy one...

CXC

mark_tucker2 · January 1, 2003

I´m in the middle of this travel shoot right now, in Mexico, with a 45SU. Take everything that i write with a grain of salt, because I think I use this camera much more roughly and with much less precision than most 4x5 guys. But these are my observations, after running this camera thru the punches for seven days HARD.

1. First thing is to take off that damn Ralph Lauren sissy strap. I wish the strap was instead a fixed titanium bar, where you could reach up and grab the camera when you were moving it around to get it level. It would double then, like the strap, as a way to get it out of a vertical bag.

2. I find the front rise to be very very useful. I think people have mentioned here that the 45SU has a lot of front rise. I took a 152, 55, and 75 on this trip, and I¨ve used the 152 for most everything, then the 55 next, then the 75 on two or three frames. I´ve only shot 100 sheets so far.

3. When i first got it, i laughed at that little mirror thing for the bubble spirit levels, but I have now elevated that feature to EXCEPTIONALLY COOL IDEA. I throw the camera on the tripod, then go immediately to that mirror, level it up, and I¨m ready to shoot.

4. I´ve never seen a folder Ebony, but I love how quick this nonfolder goes on the tripod and is ready to go. I tend to treat this thing like a Hasselblad, it´s gotta be quick and fast.

5. I have a bit of shakiness in the front standard. I bought mine new, but I don´t think it´s right. I can take my hand and move the standard even when it´s tightened down. I will check into this.

6. I find the wides very easy to use, even the 55. The knobs are a tiny bit hard to get to with the 55 mounted, cause the bellows are so contracted. Maybe one of the other models would be slightly better,the ones designed for wides. But I have no complaints even with the 55. Just go for the knobs on the front standard, and rise, and then lock then down.

7. I find the tiny hot spot on the 55 very irritating. I don´t know what to do about it.

8. I have my homemade viewer made for mine for this trip, because i refuse to carry around a dark cloth. It has worked FLAWLESSLY. (Maybe with dark cloth, those tiny hot spots of widewides would be less irritating).

9. I have thoroughly enjoyed shooting this camera on this trip. 4x5 is almost like meditation, in a way, compared to shooting Hasselblad. I can´t quite explain it right now, but I´ve had a couple of zen moments with the camera on this trip, where the sky is blue, and the sun is warm, and light is just right, and I know I¨m coming home to a huge negative. I have even shoot tight portraits on the street. I carry around a cheat sheet in Spanish and explain that the camera is slow and for them to hold still after I focus. It´s worked surprisingly well.

10. I am shooting Readyload TMAX 100. No complaints at all. The holder has worked fine.

11. I don´t know about these assymetrical movements. I guess I´ve used them without even knowing it. Maybe if I didn´t have them, I´d feel like something was wrong, but my secret notion is that the 45S would be just fine. But on this, I´m open to be corrected and educated.

12. I´m not super blown away by the frictiony, rough movements on this camera. Jeff Wheeler chalked it up to it being brand new, but it´s not really getting any looser as I use it. I wonder if the titanium could be lubricated in some way, without ruining it or making a mess.

13. Whatever you do, get a carbon tripod. And a damn good head. The head is the key thing to me. This one on this trip is my old NPC ball head that I´ve had for a zillion years, and I know it like the back of my hand.

14. Also on the Ebony, A Plus grade for the big and simple knobs. Already, it´s second nature. Just reach and grab without looking.

This is my unbiased view of the camera. I love it in some weird way, because it´s just so easy to use. I could care less about Ebony wood, or titanium, but it´s light, and somewhat solid, and simple. What more could you want? Plus that cool little mirror. Who knows if it´s worth the money. Maybe I could have done the same thing with a Tachihara or even a Cadet.

My only unfinished business is finding out why the wind begins to blow much harder once I pull the dark slide. It is uncanny how it happens. YOu´re working and setting up, and no wind, then you pull the slide, and here it comes, within seconds. It´s almost eerie how it happens. Another weird related thing I noticed is that with Readyloads, the slide stays attached, and therefore sticking up in the air, and it turns into a small sail that´s shockingly noticeable in terms of wind resistance. This would make the old plastic holders seem better in this area, due to the dark slide being separated.

I´ll post my scans to a new chapter on my site in a couple of weeks. YOu guys can evaluate how I did. (This is also a continuance of another thread called ¨Run and Gun Shooting^).

Mark Tucker, http://marktucker.com/

upscan · January 1, 2003

Mark: Readyloads, quickloads, polaroids, etc. are all sails. It is unavoidable. May be it is agood idea to carry two or three regular film holders for windy occassions. The Ebony's shaky front is a concern to a prospective buyer and quite a serious defect. Hope that can be fixed and is not inherent in the design. Good luck and thanks for the candid expose.

cxc · January 2, 2003

Mark, thanks for the field report, it was way informative.

CXC

emile_de_leon9 · January 2, 2003

$4000.00 bucks for a camera with a shaky front and rough focus? Hmmm.....

jeffrey_scott · January 2, 2003

Mark,

I had the same issues as you concerning the 45SU. The roughness is because the coefficient of friction is high with titanium sliding against itself; just get a silicon lubricant and use it VERY sparingly on the parts that slide (shift and swing components). It will make a world of a difference. The focus is not rough, that is very nice. As to the shaky front standard, it is not really shaky it is just not stiff because there is not much rail left slid under the titanium bars when fully extended so it tends to droop but in practice I have not found this to be a hindrence. I did take off my strap handle and I use the titanium loops left over as a means of clipping my focusing cloth to them with large black metal office clips. If you had a chance to compare the asymmetrical back with a regular axis tilt and swing back you would realize the advantages to the asymmetrical feature. I have owned and or used a great many different view cameras over the years and all have had some compromise or quirk in one feature or another; the 45SU is my final purchase, enough said!

mark_tucker2 · January 3, 2003

I had the same issues as you concerning the 45SU. The

roughness is because the coefficient of friction is high with

titanium sliding against itself; just get a silicon lubricant and use

it VERY sparingly on the parts that slide (shift and swing

components).

Thank you for that tip. I will try it. One other weird thing, that falls

under the category of me being a possible Bozo: There is this

thin sheet of white plastic material, in the junctions of some of

the movements. I am assuming that I'm supposed to leave them

there, that they supply some needed lubrication or lack of metal

on metal. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? It's either

one or the other -- it's either like that tag on your mattress,

warning you never to remove it, or it's like that blue tape that

comes on Epson printers, that signals you that it's meant to be

removed before use. I cannot tell which one.

Also, I didn't mean to come down hard on that Ebony camera. I

truly DO like it, but I love to complain about that Ralph Lauren

strap -- to me, it's the first signal that it's designed as what I call

a "doctor/dentist camera" -- more looks than performance. When

i first saw that strap, I almost put it back in the box without even

considering it. It's to me, 99% useless. A fixed, sturdy titanium

bar would be much more functional.

And as for that loose front standard, I think that one person did

maybe sum it up -- the ricketiness seems to occur only when the

front standard is extended way out there, near it's max. But to me,

why design a camera with that much bellows extension if you

can't produce it to be sturdy? I can easily take one finger

underneath the metal front standard, and even with it locked

down tight, I can lift it up and down about a sixteenth of an inch. I

do also agree with that other fellow who seems to imply that, in

the real world, it probably would not result in soft images, but by

the same token, it just bugs me. And it's so obvious that it does

seem like my camera is broken in some way, in that, no one

would purposely design the front to be that loose. I think this falls

under the category of what another person said, which I'll

rephrase, "$3700 and the front standard is shaky?" That's what I

kinda said to myself.

The other advice that I'd give to the original poster here, is to

research your image circles too. That, to me, showed up very

often in my shooting this past week. If I had it to do again, I'd go

for those "XL" lenses, or anything, like the 72, that produces a

very large image circle. Why have all that rise and fall of the

Ebony, if your lenses can't keep up with the camera's features?

They go hand in hand.

I am home. I am fried. The lab runs my 98 sheets tomorrow. I'll

let you guys know when the scans are up. But don't expect

normal 4x5; I tend to abuse and manipulate images quite a bit in

post. I'll start with tack sharp film, but who knows where it'll go

once I'm done with them.

-MT, http://marktucker.com/

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