Lighting a Cyclorama, How?

[peter_macejka]

<p>I am about to move in to my new studio space, about a 140sq/m. Its a first floor warehouse space in a disused wheat silo. I plan to share costs with other photographers by providing office space with one day a week in the studio for each them. The actual photo studio space will be about 6m x 15m with 3 large windows on one of the long sides. <br>

I would like to build a cyclorama down one end of the studio, but am having trouble figuring out how to light it. I'm thinking the Cyc would be about 4m x 5m in one corner of the room.<br />Can you use low powered studio flashes like the Bowens Gemini 200 or 400? If so, how many?<br>

Or would Cyc lights be a better option? How many lights would you need and would you need them both top and bottom or just at the top? I have carpenter friends who could help keep the cost of building the cyc down, but I would like to keep the cost of lighting down to a minimum with the adding to them down the line.<br>

I would be grateful for your opinions or for pointing me to online resources or books to look up.<br>

Thanks,<br>

Peter</p>

 

[michaelmowery]

<p>There is no one answer. It all depends on what type of effect you are going for. Unless you are showing the entire cyc you light it as you would any other background. On the other hand if you see the whole curve on the outer parts then you need to light it from above from either a boom or hanging lights. Again you may or may not need to light the background...I don't know what you are trying to do. You obviously can't light it from the side as you will cast a shadow in the curve. I hope this answers your question. You know Google is a great place to learn and even see videos on what ever you may want to do.</p>

[peter_macejka]

<p><br /> Thanks Michael,<br /><br />I guess I'm under the impression that a cyc is more convenient than using background rolls. I myself photograph dancers and movement more than still portraits and get the most positive feed back from a bright white background. I like the idea of the background being setup, using filters to change colour if needed and not have to deal with paper rolls. <br />I guess I'm showing myself to be quite the amateur whose excited about finally getting a big studio. <br />What I'm trying to achieve is a space for myself by sharing costs with other photographers (amateur or pro). I'm willing to spend a bit of money to provide everyone with a good studio space, and so many studios are providing cycloramas.<br />I have tried to research lighting cycs on this forum and on goggle, but most of what I find is on building a cyclorama not lighting one.<br />So far I've lit my white backgrounds with studio flashes, which I understand how to use somewhat, but the idea of using cyc lights is new to me. My understanding is they aren't as powerful and I would need to use more of them than studio flashes. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.<br />Thanks for your response, <br />Peter</p>

[peter_macejka]

<p>Hi again Michael,<br>

I've just had a look at the last question I asked in 2012, funnily about cycloramas and you where one of the helpful people contributing. I remember that being a good reality check, and somehow I now feel like I haven't come a long way in the last 18 months. Oh well, I still enjoy the challenge of studio work. I checked out your web site and was very impressed by your work.</p>

 

[tim_ludwig2]

<p>Peter,</p>

<p>Lets discuss only the power issues. Based on your comments about preferring a white background, you will need MORE power rather than less. The basic rule of thumb is that once you've established your subject exposure, say f8, you will need a background exposure that is two stops more power to produce pure white (in this case f16). There is a specific way to meter that if you are using flash and that is an incident reading of the subject, and a reflective reading for the background as the power of the flash striking the background (incident reading) may not have an accurate relationship to what is reflected from the surface due to the type of surface and how it is painted (matte or gloss) so a reflected reading is the only accurate method.</p>

<p>So, don't expect to be able to just go cheap on the investment in lighting.</p>

<p>Also placement will probably be the most even with white umbrellas on four units, one on each side lighting the upper wall and again on each side lighting the curve and spilling downward onto the floor.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

[michaelmowery]

<p>Thank you Peter. Ok so now I understand how you will use the cyc. One thing about cyc lights they are for stage, theater and video lighting. You will want to get strobe lights instead and as Tim said you want some power. I am not a follower of the rule of thumb 2 stops over main exposure for pure white. That is more the rule if you are using in camera meter. If you have a white background exposed properly with a hand held meter then you will have a white background. You can push it a bit closer to 245-250 which will be about 1/2 to 3/4 stop at the most over your main. You don't want to blow out your white till it glows and then you have back light spilling onto your subjects. You should always do a test and check the color info in photo shop to see where you are at. You can see on my website http://www.michaelmowery.com under my corporate portfolio there is a shot with a white background that was 1/2 stop over main and it was giving me around 245 info readings. This is more important when you are shooting white on white. You don't want the white clothes to disappear in a white background. control is the name of the game not rules of thumb.<br>

<br /> The cyc is cool but it is limited. The cyc will never replace color seamless paper. Gelling the cyc is not an alternative in my opinion. The gel looking background is old school in my opinion and should be used at a minimum. Gelling white background is also not the best choice either and again it will bounce that color all over the place.</p>

[peter_macejka]

<p>Thanks Tim and Michael. You both mention I would need more power.<br>

I currently have a use 4x Bowens gemini 500pro flashes. I usually use just two and reflectors to light the dancer and one or two on the background. <br>

Tim you mention using 4 flashes to light the background. How much power would be needed, would 400watt, 500watt flashes be sufficient or would I need 750watt or 1000watt?<br>

Michael, thanks for the tip of colour gels being old school, I guess its another instance of thinking its a great idea without having had the experience to back it up.</p>

<p> </p>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p>To light a white background (so that it looks white in the photos) you do not need a lot of light; the reflectivity of the material itself helps you get there. When lighting a white background, spill from the background light on the subject can be an issue depending on how close you put the subject relative to the background and exactly how you light it, so you may need some flags (black boards, panels or V-flats) to contain that. If your subject is close to the background (relative to the larger distance between subject and lights) then you may not need to light it at all, but the lights may need to be large diffused sources so the subject does not produce significant shadows (the subject should not be <em>too</em> close to the background as in that case shadows would be unavoidable). With more distance between subject and background you can use background lights to control it. Homogeneous background lighting needs to be symmetrical from both sides, and you want light sources that have very slow falloff so that the patterns from both sides merge nicely to produce a homogeneous outcome. I think for a lot of situations, it is sufficient to use two lights symmetrically relative to the subject position; if you use four then your spill control boards need to be quite tall. Make the final adjustments to the background lights based on flash meter readings including the foreground lights that will typically fill in the slight gap in lighting patterns created by the background lights on each side. (Personally I think that the slight shadow created by the subject on the background does not need to be compensated for, at least if the foreground lights are large diffuse light sources so the shadow is very gradual and faint). The flash energy of the background lights needed is likely to be small compared to the main light if the latter is a large softbox or another source that swallows a lot of light to create a large, diffuse light source. Of course, if you photograph a large group of people and the background correspondingly large as well, more light is needed (also because you need depth of field for the group); in this case I would light the background and back row of people with diffuse light from above pointed in a 45 degreeish angle (adjust to taste) towards the back row and background. A light that hangs from rails on the ceiling and can be moved about can be convenient for these situations. In a permanent studio space lights that hang from the roof and can be adjusted in height, position and direction are very attractive to use as you don't contaminate the foreground with stands so you gain some effective space (i.e. you can position lights closer to the subject without getting the feet of the stands in the picture).</p>

<p>A reflected flash meter reading off the background will of course give about two stops greater exposure than a reflected reading measured of a neutral gray subject but that is because of the reflectance of the background is high and is not indicative of the energy of the flashes that are used to light the background, which typically is relatively low (at least in the case of lighting a background of sufficient size for a portrait instead of an industrial hall). Make sure that the background doesn't go all white at (255,255,255) so that you can still get some tones in it and can control its final appearance in post-processing (maybe 240-245 is good). Watch out for spill on hair, cheeks etc. and have enough stuff that you can put in between the source of the spill and the subject that stand on their own.</p>

<p>Personally I like seamless background paper rolls; they feel "real" and are matte. However, lighting white paper perfectly homogeneous white isn't my favorite thing to do, even though I too get that request - somehow the white background is well liked by the subjects but it's unfortunately not the simplest thing to implement in practice, especially if you don't have sufficient equipment at hand and if you want to photograph subjects that move so you need space around that stays white. I would start by getting four identical lights (e.g. 400Ws) so that it's easy to get the modeling lights to match (and you can if necessary replace one of the main lights with one of the background lights on the fly, if there is need of service) and if you find that you really must have more than two lights for the background you can add them. I think it is a good idea to try to do things in the simplest way that will work. </p>

[michaelmowery]

<p>It is always better to have more lights than not. More lights for one helps evenly light the scene or background as Ikka has mentioned. Hanging the lights is ideal for you situation as the dances are free to move around more without crossing a light stand. The power for your strobes has to be enough to cover the distance and provide the f-stop that you need. When soft boxes are used you loose almost half your power. The other important consideration is flash duration which will allow you to freeze the dancers. You should defiantly do some tests with rentals before buying. Spend the money for good strobes first before you spend it on the studio.</p>

[peter_macejka]

<p>Thanks everyone for your help, its given me a few ideas to work from.<br>

I still plan on building a cyc, and now plan to hiring a couple more Bowens flashes to start experimenting.<br>

Trial and error to follow as always. :)</p>

[mark_schafer1]

<p>I can only tell you from my experience: We usually have a max of 3 people on a white hard cyc, if i need a wider opening for movement or angle, the answer will change accordingly. So most of the time we end up with 2 Profoto Pro heads on each side, each into a medium size white umbrella, blocked to the front and subject with V-flats (2 4x8" foam core, white toward light, black outside toward camera). Depending on ceiling height we extend this by clipping a second V-flat to it. Now we adjust the heads/umbrellas the achieve perfect light distribution, for 35mm i go for f11 and front light f8.<br /> I try to have a pack per head for optimum recycle time, but in a pinch use 2 heads a pack. For a 9ft opening around the subject, i have them at least the same distance from the cyc, the more the better, eliminates spills. That opens a rear surface of prob. 15ft that need to be white. The 1200 packs run about 1/4 power, so i guess 250/300Ws (Profotos Master varistor adjusts to color temp).<br /> A nice cyc can also be a great soft bounce, just shoot from it out and also great as a grey fall off. My biggest concern would be that the windows are north facing, install full blackout shades with possibly white interior and consider a silk that's big enough to use this as a light source as well. The the cyc needs to extend into the room to give you a background when shooting sideways. I recommend researching Richard Avedon's studio work. It's surprising what he achieved in his little bubble studio. I had the pleasure of visiting this "holy" place and just couldn't believe it.<br /> I found a picture here, but google and you shall receive:<br /> http://sketch42blog.com/2013/08/the-richard-avedon-townhouse/</p>

<p>He shot a lot with one head in an umbrella, brilliant.</p>

[paco_rosso]

<p>The design rule for a vertical parament is to locate the lamps at half the distance than the lenght you want to illuminate.<br>

It is: for each 1 meter (foot) of vertical background, the height should be 1/2 meter (foot). And for each 1 meter (foot) of horizontal background the distancia from lamp to wall should be 1/2 meter.<br /><br /><br>

With a 5 meters long the locate the lamps at 2,5 meters.</p>

 

[twmeyer]

Thanks for that link Mark. Any insight regarding Avedon's creative process is highly valued… t