Another Df review (Thom Hogan)

[mike_halliwell]

<p>OK, let's try again.... AUTO ISO is where conditions are changing really QUICKLY... Yes..?</p>

<p>Is this camera what you want? Really? You're kidding right? It takes micro-seconds to change any variable you want....MANUALLY. Leave this AUTO stuff alone.</p>

<p> </p>

[joe_kubala]

<p>OK ... one more time from this end .... walking from the street (BRIGHT LIGHT) into a cathedral (DIM LIGHT) is a QUICK CHANGE to the lighting level. If the camera has the ability to adjust to that per my pre-determined choices, WHY WOULD I NOT USE IT?</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>AUTO? Are you all slaves to the machines? Change it your self! If you want f5.6 @ 100th sec, that's fine, but that's Manual.....auto iso will assign it for you... but if it decides that can only be done with ISO 128.000 are you happy with that? If so, that's just fine. but that's thought, not really AUTO.</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>Oooooo..these cross postings!</p>

<p>Joe, YES! That's what it's for! Yes Yes yes!</p>

<p>That's not my issue. The post seems to be about setting minimum ISO and a maximum ISO and fighting the in-betweeners. </p>

[joe_kubala]

<p>No we are not slaves. However, if you read the user manual on the AUTO ISO function, you will see that it will not choose 128,000 unless i allow it to. So if my preference is a maximum value of 1600 that is where it will stop. It is just something I can think about ahead of time and program the right functionality based on circumstances (is no noise the criteria today? Some noise OK? etc) <br>

Now I know you know all of this. So why are you being so ornery?</p>

[marc_ravignat]

<p>Mike, using auto-iso within certain limits is like changing films with different ASA's mid-way through your shooting session. I know that this can be done manually by just flicking the iso dial. I will still be using the iso dial for exposures that require lower values than base iso 100 (for very fast lenses in daylight). For this, I will turn off auto iso. I really don't think that this has anything to do with speed but rather with convenience. I haven't had a chance to use the camera very much and will see what works best for me. I might just set the auto-iso to a max 800 and turn it off if I need more control over higher iso's. I have programmed the fn button to quickly turn it off. <br>

Andrew, I don't think that there is a bug with the camera and auto-iso. It works exactly like Joe explained. The dial is really meant to be used with auto iso off, but can be used to increase the iso range in auto iso. </p>

 

[Hector Javkin]

<p>As a long-time Nikon shooter, I want to thank everyone on this thread. I need to wait a bit before purchasing a Df because of the expense, but the contributions above convinced me to give myself a treat and subscribe to Nikongear. Thanks all!</p>

[joe_kubala]

Marc ... You said in your last post ... "The dial is really meant to be used with auto iso off, but can be used to increase the iso range in

auto iso."

 

 

That is not correct. The dial can be used to REDUCE the iso range but not increase it. Let's say you set the max sensitivity to 1600 -then

the range not considering the dial would be 100-1600. If the dial is set at 100 then the range remains 100-1600. If you set the dial higher

than 100 but less than 1600 then the range will be reduced to the dial setting up to the max - let's say 400-1600 if the dial is at 400.

However once you set the dial at a value above 1600 then the iso range is not increased to the new setting -let's say 3200 -but rather the

new value becomes a setting which the camera will hold until 1/4000 sec would be exceeded, at which point the auto iso would kick in to

reduce the iso to maintain proper exposure. At least that is what my Df is doing.

[joe_kubala]

Hector ... Go for it! I am liking this camera a lot! And ... My AIS lenses really are very good it turns out! It is fun to be in

control of the image making process again!

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Um. I'll dive into the "going quickly" thing later (I think Mike and I will disagree about what the Df is "for"), but Joe: thank you for clarifying. Given that, my impression is that Nikon think you'll have auto-ISO set up "normally", see that you don't have enough ISO when you hit the top of the range, and twiddle the dial to a higher value. After that, I admit, all hell breaks loose for the next shot.<br />

<br />

I take it back: Thom is quite right, this is broken. I can see that they may have been trying to be helpful, but I can see so many other interpretations (most of them being what I thought they did...) that would have been more useful or made more sense. I have to assume that Nikon's design team never really change ISO much anyway, given that they persist in putting the control out of reach even on other cameras.<br />

<br />

Dear Nikon. Please send me some source code (assembler or whatever it's written in) to the BIOS (for your entire current range...) for Christmas. I'll spend my Christmas break fixing the ever-increasing list of complaints that people have, and you can re-encrypt it afterwards...</p>

[richard_driscoll]

<blockquote>

<p>It is fun to be in control of the image making process again!</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I've read several reviews etc. but I don't see there is anything much that you can do with this camera that you can't do with most of the other Nikon DSLRs. What's more there are a good few things it can't do ..... video, and built-in flash come to mind.</p>

[joe_kubala]

Hi Andrew ... I think that if Nikon changed just one thing it might fix the issue and I think would only be a simple firmware

change. Here is my "what if ..." If the operation remained unchanged as is where base iso (100 on the Df) was the

starting point for auto iso but the menu choice for max iso added one more choice ... "Use Dial" or simply allowed it to also be set to 100 ... Which would in effect be setting the max sensitivity also equal to base iso (100) ... Then take the setting from the physical dial for max iso ... I

think that would work. Any thoughts?

[joe_kubala]

<p>Hello Richard, I agree with your post. My point is that the Df is, for me, and my style of shooting, a welcome offering. Said most simply, I think that the current DSLRs are automatic cameras that can be used manually and that the Df is a manual camera that can be used automatically. </p>

<p>Maybe a small distinction, but to me, the dials etc offer a welcome way to take pictures with the ability to "go auto" should the need arise. I never got used to DSLRs as they did not feel comfortable to me. </p>

<p>I had an F4 and sold it as it was "too automatic" for me and I was developing a style (landscape and travel) that was tripod based for landscape and sunny 16/ zone focus based for travel. So I gravitated to Leica for 35mm film and used mostly 4x5 cameras for landscape. </p>

<p>So the Df is a nice combination of features for me as I feel in control of it instead of it in control of me. Joe</p>

[marc_ravignat]

<p>Hello Joe,<br>

This auto-iso thing is becoming quite confusing. I have checked my camera and it functions like your's. The dial set at 200 iso with menu auto-iso max set at 1600. The camera will initially choose 200 iso and hold, and then when the auto iso kicks with a change in lighting, the auto iso indicator will flash in the viewfinder and the iso will increase. The starting point will be the iso setting on the dial. The auto iso will also kick in to lower the iso down to 100 (base) and the auto-iso indicator in the viewfinder will flash again.<br>

As for using the dial in the upper range beyond the menu maximum auto iso, I also think that you are right. It will initially change over to what's on the dial (ex. 3200) and be held there (like it did at 200) until the shutter speed reaches 4000 and then auto iso will kick in again to lower the iso. Iso 3200 will be your starting point as it was previously with the dialed in 200. Not sure if I am being clear but it seems to be working exactly like your's. I never noticed this before because I was setting my dial, as a reminder, at the exact same iso as the in menu maximum auto-iso. So if you are using auto-iso, your best bet I think will be to set the dial at 100 or 200 as the initial starting points and let the auto iso kick in all the way up to your in menu max auto.</p>

[joe_kubala]

<p>Hi Marc ... exactly. One clarification would be that when you sent your dial as a reminder that 1600 was the max sensitivity setting then auto iso was essentially disabled for all practical purposes.</p>

<p>At that point all that is happening is that it will hold at 1600 (not change from 100-1600) until overexposure then it will decrease iso from there to maintain proper exposure.</p>

[marc_ravignat]

<p>Exactly, it was working it's way down from 1600 instead of working its way up from for example 100. I have read elsewhere on the web that people are setting the in menu max auto iso at 200 and using the dial to set 'max iso', as I had mentioned previously. They are making the mistake of using for example 1600 iso as a starting point and letting the auto iso decrease the iso instead of using it properly and letting the auto iso increase the iso. I have decided to set my dial at 400 iso and let the auto iso work from there to either decrease the iso to base 100 or increase it to my in menu max iso. I think that I now fully understand how the auto-iso on this camera works. Thanks for your help with this. The instruction manual was quite useless. </p>

[joe_kubala]

<p>Hi Marc ...<br>

I read that same post (Nikonians I think) and started to play around with the camera and found it was not doing what they said. I started to google the issue and that led me to this thread.</p>

<p>The more I played with it (because I really thought that if it worked that way I would want to do it) the more I understood what was happening. Thanks for your help and efforts as well. </p>

<p>Be well and Happy Holidays! <br>

Joe</p>

[marc_ravignat]

<p>Hi Joe,<br>

One more thing, I am using auto minimum shutter speed and have raised the minimum shutter to faster by one notch. I find that this helps keep my shutter above 1/100th of second before the auto iso kicks in (instead of around 1/50th with the default setting). I am presently using a 50mm 1.4 lens. I haven't yet tried this with other focal lenghts to see where the minimum shutter speed will be before auto iso kicks in.<br>

Happy Holidays as well, from Cantley, Québec</p>

[joe_kubala]

<p>Hi Marc,</p>

<p>I started using the AUTO function for the min shutter speed and find it works quite well. You have to define your lens in the Non-CPU list, but once you do it changes the min shutter speed automatically. And, you can tweak the automatic setting to be lower or higher than it would use in a sub-menu. Really neat.<br>

Cheer!<br>

Joe</p>

 

[joe_kubala]

<p>hI Marc ... sorry ... i mis-read your post ... you are already doing that Apologies!! Joe</p>

 

[thom_hogan]

<p>Bjorn wrote: "The only excuse I can concede is he doesn't explore the various ways the camera(s) can be set up."<br>

<br />Seems a little snide for you, Bjorn, and I'm surprised that you would write that rather than just asking me via email if I had that right. I don't believe I've ever done that to you.</p>

<p>Since people have misinterpreted what I wrote, I've changed the wording in the review to reflect the nuance that wasn't in the original. With really long reviews like this it's fairly common that on first post there is some wording that trips people up or doesn't fully reflect nuance, and I always go back and correct that when I find that happens.</p>

<p>If you use modern G-type lenses on the Df (or D600/D610) or if you don't move aperture setting from the command dials via the Custom Setting F7 for other types of lenses, what I originally wrote is correct. The cameras with the consumer parts don't have the motor to move the aperture activation arm during Live View via the dials. The D800/D4 do. It's likely that Nikon picked the D600 part because the Df doesn't have video (where you want constant aperture control, even for G lenses) and the design target was folk using older lenses. Still, the kit comes with a G lens, so what I wrote absolutely applies to what Nikon shipped ;~).</p>

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>The cameras with the consumer parts don't have the motor to move the aperture activation arm during Live View via the dials. The D800/D4 do. It's likely that Nikon picked the D600 part because the Df doesn't have video</p>

</blockquote>

<p>We have already covered this point on the previous long thread on the Df: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00c829<br>

(with > 800 posts, it is probably not worthwhile to search for anything there)</p>

<p>However, for whatever reason, the earlier D700 also doesn't have the capability to change the aperture on G lenses in the middle of live view, while the D3 family does. Video shouldn't be a factor there since other than the D3S, everything else from the D3 family and D700 have no video capability.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

Thom: thank you for dropping by. Are you able to confirm the strange auto-ISO behaviour in aperture

priority that's mentioned here? (I'm still of the suspicion that everything would work es described in the

manual in, er, manual exposure mode, since there's only one ISO to pick, and also that the current behaviour is a bug). Joe and Marc, thank you for investigating!

 

Mike: auto-ISO is about the camera getting out of your way. The D4 sensor is exceptionally good at coping

with an arbitrary ISO setting (it gains less from low ISO and is hurt less by high ISO than the D600/D800),

so it's well suited. Are you a slave to the meter? Yes, but you can always spot meter and know what you're

slave to. Dials don't have to mean no automation.

[marc_ravignat]

<p>Andrew, I really don't think that it's a bug. I just think that it hasn't been properly explained in the instruction manual especially how the iso dial functions with auto-iso. </p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Marc: Well, it's not what the manual says, and it feels less helpful than what the manual says... but I won't claim it's beyond Nikon to claim it's a "feature", like breaking trap focus.<br />

<br />

In other news, dpreview have <a href="http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-df/17">published</a> their review. There's a few mistakes in there (starting with an historical one about the F5), but they're got a mix between saying they quite like the experience of using an old lens (but it was AI converted, so it would have worked on a D600...) and being unconvinced about the new layout. They also believe that the camera is designed not to be used in "lifted to the eye" mode, which is the conclusion I'm reaching. Anyway, I've not spotted any new information that we hadn't already dug out (I only skimmed it), but if anyone's interested, enjoy!</p>