D800E sensor cleaning

[peterkp]

<p>I'm travelling in the US and took my D800E to an authorized Nikon repair/service place to get my sensor cleaned. Picked up the camera but before getting in the car I took a photo of the sky and could clearly see spots on the playback screen. Took the camera back into the service center, minutes after picking it up, and they acknowledged there was a problem even though they had just given me a printout showing the a perfectly clean image produced by the camera. A technician had another look, came out and told me the sensor had "soft spots" - dust behind a screen/glass in front of the sensor, which could not be cleaned. They refunded my money and sent me on my way.<br>

At the place I'm staying, I took another picture of the sky (f22) and pulled it up on the computer at 100%. The dust was as bad as when I gave the camera to them but, worse, there is a now a horizontal smear which I assume is the result of a poor attempt at cleaning.<br>

My query is, has anybody heard of such "soft spots" which cannot be rectified? Am I being told a story? I just hope there's no permanent damage to the sensor.<br>

Peter P.</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>Nope, never. For some reason, they're telling stories....they've run out of swabs?</p>

<p>I'd guess it's a cleaning smear and the sensor will be fine when cleaned properly!</p>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>Peter, the service centre's story doesn't hang together and sounds like a transparent (sorry) lie to me. For instance; they gave you a printout showing a clean image, and yet minutes later your sensor, according to them, had developed 'soft spots' that couldn't be removed. That's complete blarney!</p>

<p>An image sensor is a large semiconductor integrated circuit, and as such it needs to be hermetically sealed. Otherwise atmospheric contaminants might cause degeneration and result in malfunction. AFAIK, the AA and IR filters form part of that hermetic sealing, but in any case the filters should be sealed down onto the sensor housing for the exact purpose of preventing ingress of dust and dirt. The sensor assembly will have been done under hepa-filtered clean-room conditions where there's no particle over 2 microns present in the air.</p>

<p>The only redeeming thing is that the centre gave you your money back, but I think this place needs naming and shaming. Where was it again?</p>

<p>Edit: You could make the place squirm by saying you were returning the camera to Nikon based on their diagnosis. Ask them to repeat their story in writing to support your claim against Nikon under warranty.</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<blockquote>

<p>Edit: You could make the place squirm by saying you were returning the camera to Nikon based on their diagnosis. Ask them to repeat their story in writing to support your claim against Nikon under warranty.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Nice!</p>

<p>When I took the IR filter sandwich out from my D90, getting all the crap out of the 'sealed' space before reclosing it, was a RPITA! I replaced the IR filter with a Fused Silica plate. I'd miscalculated the light-path distance as I forgot about the shake-clean/IR filter. It only just, just reaches infinity, but I don't feel like taking it apart again!</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Well, if that store had accidentally damaged your camera sensor during cleaning and wanted to cover that up, I can see that they had incentives to lie to you and refund your money just to get you out their door.</p>

<p>Otherwise, if they simply didn't clean the sensor thoroughly the first time around, they could have easily clean it again, properly, and kept your money. Why would they lie about spots inside the sensor assembly such that it cannot be properly cleaned?</p>

[peterkp]

<p>Thanks for your responses. Unfortunately, I had the same suspicion as Shun - that they did some other damage to the camera and were keen to get me out the door. I'll be taking test shots this morning. <br>

Yes, I plan to inform Nikon as nothing they said held together for me. They also told me that just having a zoom lens introduces dust because the action of the lens extending and retracting (zooming) results in the need for air to be expelled and introduced - ie: can't have a sealed unit. Rubbish of course - the back of my 24-70 f2.8 does not move in and out with zooming.<br>

So I suggested to them that even if you use a prime lens there's always the likelihood of dust because the camera is not sealed. They said this is correct. This is when I decided I did not want them to touch my camera again.<br>

The company is called C.R.I.S. (criscam.com) and they say they are an authorized Nikon, Canon, etc service center. They're in Chandler (Phoenix AZ). They're a professional looking place with nice staff but I think I was fed a load of crap.<br>

Thanks again.<br>

Peter P.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>On Nikon USA's web site, there is a somewhat dated (2007) list of authorized repair shops: <a href="http://www.nikonusa.com/fileuploads/pdfs/Nikon_repair_list.pdf">http://www.nikonusa.com/fileuploads/pdfs/Nikon_repair_list.pdf</a><br />CRIS is indeed on that list. In fact, they are the first one.</p>

<p>However, sensor cleaning is not exactly rocket science. I do that myself, at home, on a regular basis.</p>

<p>In these cases, it is best to have names such that we know/Nikon knows exactly whom you have spoken with there.</p>

[peterkp]

<p>Shun, I sent an email to them yesterday after I took the attached image at my friend's place. See who responds. The image is what really set me off. Not only were there plenty of spots (worse than it went in I think) but at 100% you can see the horizontal smear near the right edge about 3/4 of the way down.<br>

I just didn't understand how an authorized service centre could send me away saying nothing could be done. Looks like it's time to start cleaning my own lenses.<br>

Just as a bit of background, I'm a travel/stock photographer (Getty Images, Alamy) so I'm always looking at my images at 100%. I know where the spots are. That's why I took the camera in. <br>

Peter P.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Peter, if you want a "second opinion," so to speak, and you are still in Phoenix, according to Nikon USA's web site, Foto Forum is an authorized dealer in that city: <a href="http://www.nikonusa.com/en_US/IMG/Images/Corporate/Where-to-Buy/Nikon_Authorized_Dealers.pdf">http://www.nikonusa.com/en_US/IMG/Images/Corporate/Where-to-Buy/Nikon_Authorized_Dealers.pdf</a></p>

<p>If the smear is from residure from the cleaning fluid, it shoud not be all that difficult to remove. I have done that myself in the early days of digital when I wanted my sensor to be 100% spot free. I hope it is not some permanent scratch or damage.</p>

[keirst]

<p>Not that is’s especially relevant, but CRIS did a fine repair job on my Pentax 645 120mm macro lens that had a screw which became loose inside. The still could have done a less than good job on cleaning a sensor.</p>

[wogears]

<p>While I agree with most of what has been posted here, the 'breathing' effect of zoom lenses is real.</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>Anyone can take (make?) am image, even @ f22, showing a clean, white dust-free sensor....just overexpose the shot.</p>

<p>The truth only comes out when you try A priority @f22 on a piece of white paper, a white sky, white computer screen etc. It adjusts the exposure to make a somewhere near mid-tone grey. All the bits, smears and spots show up 'nicely'!</p>

<p>EDIT. Yup, zooms surly breath, but the dust should never be able to get <em>BEHIND</em> the Ultra-sonic muck shaker and IR filter sandwich! You've got to thoroughly disassemble a camera to get in there....or maybe..:-(</p>

<p>..... literally <em><strong>flooding</strong></em> it with solution could work it's way inside/behind by capillarity?</p>

[rick_chen]

<p>C.R.I.S. (criscam.com) is a reputable company...but hey..anyone might make a mistake by damaging a sensor during cleaning @@</p>

[peterkp]

<p>ok, closing this off because I don't think I'll get anywhere with CRIS and I have to move on.<br>

I got my second opinion from Tempe Camera. They cleaned the sensor (better but not perfect) and said the sensor has a scratch.<br>

So I have a report from CRIS saying the sensor was cleaned, no mention of any issues. I have a report from Tempe Camera, 24 hrs and half a dozed shutter actuations later, saying the sensor is scratched.<br>

Remember that CRIS "cleaned" the sensor and gave me a report saying they had cleaned it and mentioned no issues. It was immediately after that first clean that I brought the camera back to them and they acknowledged problems.<br>

Spoke with "Steve" from CRIS. He thought the mark on the sensor, which he acknowledged on the image I sent to him after his efforts, was not a scratch (he confirmed that the metadata showed him that image I sent him was from the same camera and only a few shutter actuations later). He doesn't know what it is. He has no explanation for how it may have got there. <br>

He has no explanation for why the sensor was so dirty after two attempts by CRIS to clean it, one by him. He has no explanation for why CRIS, an authorized Nikon service centre, could offer no resolution to the problems he could see and acknowledged ("soft spots" etc previously mentioned).<br>

I did not think he was competent or confident in his explanation of the of where the dust was causing the soft spots. He said there was a piece of glass in front of the sensor (comments anyone?) and the dust was between that and the sensor. But Tempe Camera got most of it off. <br>

All this from a man who has been in the business 24 years.<br>

I told him I didn't think he had been honest with me in any of his dealings. He "didn't think he had been dishonest". Carefully chosen words.<br>

One of those situation - Steve is either a liar or incompetent. He would not commit to rectifying the problem (new sensor) if I gave the camera back to him.<br>

Thanks to all for your comments.<br>

Peter P.</p>

<p> </p>

[peterkp]

<p>Epilogue:</p>

<ul>

<li>I've learned a few things out of all of this like the "breathing" of zoom lenses (Les).</li>

<li>Rick Chen, anyone can make a mistake? Sure, but you cop it. Everything Steve did was "... gosh we screwed up here let's give him his money and push him out the door and hope he goes away - he's not local anyway". One of the reasons, I think, we contribute to forums is to help others find reputable businesses to get work done - or places to avoid. Hope he doesn't scratch your sensor. </li>

</ul>

[2Oceans]

Peter, I have the same camera. I am sorry for your troubles. The local price for cleaning here in Washington DC is

$100.00. For the price of two cleanings you can buy fairly substantial cleaning system. I use a copper hill brush, sensor

swabs for wet cleaning with eclipse and a Donegan magnifying visor with attached lights and a additional magnifier and

purchased a small "panavice" to hold the camera at a good angle. I am not that interested in technical aspects of

cleaning but like Shun said sensor cleaning is not rocket science. I would recommend performing your own sensor

cleaning. I have been happy doing it myself a find that I can do a good job with a little care. Good hunting.

[peterkp]

<p>Sorry, I did reply Edward but it didn't go through for some reason. Thanks for your time and suggestions. I will definitely be cleaning my own sensors when I return to Australia. <br>

I have had a "form letter" response from Nikon USA and no satisfaction on my questions. They said "...only technicians in LA and NY can repair the D800E...". I have forwarded Shun's link to them.<br>

This could drag out....</p>

[peterkp]

<p>Just to close this off (again): after being deflected a few times by Nikon USA about the performance of their Authroized Repair Station (ARS), I sent them Shun's link which said CRIS was an ARS and demanded to deal with a manager and got put onto a Senior Customer Relations person.<br>

She seemed more interested and asked that I send the camera to them. I did and Nikon USA confirmed that the sensor had a "mark that could not be removed" and in the interest of "good relations" they replaced the sensor. They also couriered the camera back to Australia. <br>

So a good outcome for me, finally. I think what may have concerned Nikon USA as much as anything was that one of their ARS' said the camera had an irreparable problem (soft spots) and sent the customer away. Their actions suggested dishonesty and/or incompetence but definitely unacceptably poor service.<br>

Nikon USA are diplomatic of course but I was told that a Manager had been made aware of the situation.<br>

Peter P. </p>