Use of Images by Assistants/Second Shooters & Contracts/Agreement

[kevin_mora]

<p>I had a couple of questions about how folks work with second shooters/assistants at weddings.</p>

<p>First, how do you let (if you even do) assistants/second shooters use photos they took at weddings? Do you let them post them on their site, use in their portfolio? Do you require that they state that they were second shooting if you do let them post? Do you let them put up photos that you post on your blog or only images you don't use? Etc. Also, do you make them sign an agreement that sets all of this out, or is it more of a handshake agreement?</p>

<p>Second, what if a second shooter/assistant backs out or cannot attend a wedding. Do you require they have a replacement, do you have language stating that they owe you money, etc? Again, is this a signed agreement or more of a handshake agreement?</p>

<p>Thanks for your input and any additional information that you think may be relevant to working with second shooters/assistants.</p>

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[savagesax]

As for your second question first, I almost always shoot alone.

 

If someone wants to tag along I usually don't let them post them on their website. I don't really care, however the bride and groom may not like the idea of seeing the wedding on different sites.

 

If people tag along I don't pay them a thing. If I need a second shooter it's always someone thats been a wedding pro for many years. I of course pay them well. They know already out of respect not to use the images in their website. Frankly they don't need more images, they have enough for the websites.

 

This answer probably doesn't help answer your questions. I simply don't want to hire a second shooter thats not at my level, because I probably won't use the images. So this is why we hire the pro's. It's worth paying them somewhere around $500. The images will look very good. I feel the bride and groom deserve nothing but the very best so we don't gamble with second shooters.

[laronge photographie coutu]

<p>Do it in writing!!!</p>

[William Michael]

<p>1. Yes. They can use what they shoot in their portfolio provided they acknowledge for whom it was shot: for example <em>"Photograph by Kevin Mora, of William W Studios"</em>.<br />Yes, I have no problem in giving that promise in writing.</p>

<p>2. They work as 'casual employees' or 'sub contractors' - there'll be a different term in the USA, but what that means in simple terms is they are either: 'as an entity employed by my company in a casual facility (i.e. at discretion and as required) at a wage per hour' or 'in their business and that business as the entity is hired for a specific job at an agreed fee'. <br />In the first case there is really no need for me to have the job description in writing, well it probably would be better if I did but I have never bothered: if we agree at a rate per hour then we agree and all other conditions are bound by employment legislation.<br />In the second case a simple quote or tender (from the second shooter) describing the job time date and hours, suffices: then he or she would send me an invoice, which I pay. <br />Either way if they don't turn up they don't get paid.</p>

<p>No, there is no penalty or compensation that they have to pay if they do not turn up.<br />If they don't have a very, very good reason for not turning up: they will never work for my company, ever again.<br />I have only had one that has reneged at the last minute and that was for a sports event shoot. He has never worked for me again.</p>

<p>You've previously mentioned that you are a lawyer, I expect that it would be easy for you to draw up a simple contract covering all the points - I suggest that you do that: I don't see much point in the compensation if they don't turn up - if you or I choose wrongly, it is our mistake: that's the way I see it.</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p>Addendum:<br>

I have had only a few. Once I get one who is good I stick with them. The fellow who didn't turn up for the Sports shoot needed to be found "in place of" one of my regulars. Second Shooter for Weddings (or Primary Shooters if you are covering two or more Weddings) need to be carefully selected, best if they assist for several Weddings first.<br>

Also, I think you need to be at a certain price point and delivery level to even consider employing people in the first place . . . and did I mention - choose carefully for Wedding Second Shooters: it is generally more than just taking Photos, they are representing your Business.</p>

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[kevin_mora]

<p>Thanks for the feedback, it is good to know another photographer's approach. Can others please provide their thoughts too? Curious to know what type of relationship they have with their second shooters (I know there are plenty of people out there who work with others).<br>

Thanks!</p>

[michaelmowery]

<p>Let them use the images, they will anyways. How else can a new photographer get samples without using some from other studios? Thats how I started. The main point is that they do not pursue your customers on the job. I think photographers can be very insecure. There will always be someone better than you thats a fact of life. There are some high profile jobs for which a contract agreement is signed by studio and all photographers not to use photographs. If it bothers you then make them sign a contract as such. good luck.</p>

[sam_danis]

<p>When I started out I never thought what I was getting was very fair. My images were never given back to me, the photographer used my images on their site and my pay wasn't very fair. Obivously since I was never given my images, I was never able to grow my portfolio.</p>

<p>Now as a main photographer for my own company I can say I in a way agree with what my mentors did to me. Although I do things a little differently.</p>

<p>1- I give my second shooters their RAW files back to them but there are conditions (which I Have a 3 page contract that they must sign). They can use their work(with their own edits) in a physical portfolio/albums that they use to show friends family or potential clients in a private meeting. These photos are never to be used on ads (such as kijiji or craigslist), at vendor shows, such as wedding shows or on their site. The photos that I do allow to be posted on their site have guidelines to follow. Like: they are limited to a max of 10photos to use in a blog post. They are not allowed to post full weddings. The images used in the blog post will be their own images but my edits and the studio is to be credited in the post/under the image as edited by ''so-so''. The reason I do this is because I hate going on various photographers websites and seeing the same wedding with different images/edits. Imagine how confusing that can be to brides and grooms! I don't ever post my second photographers photos on my own site as I don't find it fair to advertise someone else's work but to see the same face and different edits is a pain. Also if the bride and groom see those edits over my own, what's to say they wont prefer the second shooters edits, which makes the situation a difficult one.</p>

<p>All this to say is they can use their photos, but with limits. And I even have some second shooters that wont even use their photos on their site because they understand the etiquette of ''I was hired by this studio/photographer, I wasn't the main so it's not my place to advertise it''. Believe me I was a second shooter long enough to learnt he ins and outs of what is appropriate and what is it, and I paid the price for it.</p>

<p>As for 2- If a second shooter backs out for a less then adequate reason (if someone died or something serious happened then by all means I totally understand) but if you want to go camping or party with friends so you bail, you don't have to pay, but you will never shoot for me again. Also if you're aspiring to have your own business and end up booking a wedding that day even tho you already agreed to shoot with me, you may also never shoot with me again, depends on how much I like you and your work.</p>

<p>I promise I'm not a bitch or anything, I've just been in both positions and have learned a lot! Hope this answered your question :)</p>

[shawn_mertz]

<p>I've been on both sides sides as well, but when I never second shot as a trainee. If you are offering top end packages you should hire professionals that fit the job, that are good enough that they deserve to be paid. I usually work alone, when I do need someone it is because I can't be two places at once, or a venue is difficult to work alone. I use second shooters that I know well and trust, and could easily do a wedding own their own. I have never minded the photographers i hire using some photos in portfolio even if it is online. They all already are established so it's great if they get something good enough to put in their portfolio since i get to sell it. I just ask that they wait a few weeks to use them. </p>

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[craig_gillette]

<p>Be clear on the copyright status of the images a different person takes. A handshake agreement or casual employment relationship may be fine - but if/when the professional relationship changes, both parties should already know what their own rights are as to the images.</p>

<p>Same with "right of publicity" issues when it comes to use of the pictures for advertising/portfolios, etc. If you have a release, would it cover the uses you have and also be extendable to the uses a second or third party might want? </p>