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full frame: Overrated or is Pentax just really good at APS-C


mountainvisions

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Long live Pentax (but we are worried). :oops:

Worried about what? This year I bought a K-1 and an Irix 15mm to add to my quiver of mostly Pentax equipment (which includes a full APS-C kit from 8mm to 450mm and a film 645 system). If you search around the internet for full frame wide angle lenses for Pentax, the relative lack of them is a sign the brand is doing quite well.

 

The K-1 has better image quality files than most of Pentax competitors (actually, I think all of them, but I might be wrong in absolutes) and the FA 15-30, 24-70, 70-200 2.8 series of lenses is second to none in terms of system quality.

 

Then you look at the APS-C catalog and aside from the road mapped DA* wide angle Pentax has perhaps the most complete lens lineup of any crop system.

 

If you like the cameras and lenses Ricoh is engineering buy and use them, if not, don't. But no reason to worry. The final product is, as it always was, a pleasure to use.

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The 24 x 36mm format isn't the holy grail. It became the holy grail when people started to call it full frame and then using crop factor. They even have less than 1 crop factor for format larger than 24 x 36mm. So to make it a format that all others are compared to then they made it the holy grail.

That's because I hate the term full frame.

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The 24 x 36mm format isn't the holy grail. It became the holy grail when people started to call it full frame and then using crop factor. They even have less than 1 crop factor for format larger than 24 x 36mm. So to make it a format that all others are compared to then they made it the holy grail.

That's because I hate the term full frame.

 

Crop factors, to me, are useful in APS-C because the aspect ratio is the same as 35mm film(which was once called "double frame"...although I also do have quite a nice half frame camera).

 

I avoid them in larger formats because the aspect ratios are so different. Instead, I prefer to compare the horizontal angle of view to the same lens in 35mm.

 

In any case, what term to like instead of full frame? Nikon users have an easy way out in that Nikon designates cameras with 24x36mm cameras as "FX", but I'm not sure what other brands use.

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The 24 x 36mm format isn't the holy grail. It became the holy grail when people started to call it full frame and then using crop factor. They even have less than 1 crop factor for format larger than 2436m.m x So to make it a format that all others are compared to then they made it the holy grail.

That's because I hate the term full frame.

 

I agree with you. 24x36 was a film format,, I'm not entirely sure why it had to carry over into digital as some sort of holy grail of image sensor sizing. My guess is because the infrastructure (lenses) were already there. I do think the term full frame is a bit of a misnomer, however, as it implies that everything else is less than full when in reality other sensors are just alternative sizes with secondary benefits, including smaller, lighter, more compact systems with very little loss of image quality.

Edited by mountainvisions
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the relative lack of them is a sign the brand is doing quite well.

Why? I do not understand.

Where are 135/2 and 35/1.4? Where is tilt-shift? If one wants 135 and 35 of top quality, he must get Samyang, no other modern options.

Newcomers to photography go to Sony.

I like Pentax, it is a cool camera but its dials freeze time after time so I have to take the battery out and reboot, but OK (I read about it in instruction manual).

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Maybe picking Pentax is a way of explicitly not investing, if we look at camera pricing (K1: 1K3€ during Black Friday)?

Where is tilt-shift?
Schneider announced some for early 2011 according to this old link (in need of translation, sorry) And there are also Hartblei and maybe the Koreans?

Where are 135/2 and 35/1.4?
135/2 on DSLR sounds like an AF micro adjusting nightmare to me. So no, I don't want one. What about the 35mm Sigma Art?
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is a way of explicitly not investing

Definitely not investing, but who knows? OK, "buy a Pentax". If one adore the brand and sell prints of landscapes for much money on regular basis then it is a good buy. As a system for future I am not sure...

 

135/2 on DSLR sounds like an AF micro adjusting nightmare to me

If it works properly - it is great, Canon users with good cam. body (EOS-1 Dx) adore this working instrument (135/2) - it is a bestseller... Canon was able to make bestsellers. Really good.

As for adjusting at this level of general technology, Ricoh could have done some automatic in-camera adjustment from start to finish.

 

 

What about the 35mm Sigma Art?

Sigmas are lottery. You may be lucky you may not, but native modern 35/1.4 must be. I understand they produce boutique style 31/1.8.... but... Where is affordable modern 85/1.8 lika Sony's?

 

Where is new 645 version? Stylish mirrorless with 4K? They are soooo sloooow.... :oops: Sad, just sad.

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Schneider announced some for early 2011

Not sure if it is still produced.... Pentaxians have to find crutches on and on and on.... In 1960s I read it outnumbered Canon in production series. I keep my Pentax as go-around semi-pocket camera, it works for it.

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You will worry less about Pentax today if you consider Pentax of the past. Pentax has never offered a limitless selection of lenses. Pentax seems more interested in offering a small set of equipment, built to the best standard they can make, and not overstretching their design or production capacity.

 

I'm sure Nikon and Canon don't make much money from exotics like tilt-shift lenses. They feel a need to offer a comprehensive catalogue, even if some designs are rarely sold.

 

The Pentax catalogue is a workmanlike selection of the most-used lenses at reasonable prices, across all formats (medium format, 24x36 and APS-C.)

 

On the original topic -- I shoot a lot of medium format film, so 24x36 isn't "full frame" to me, it's "miniature format" just like in all those photography books from the 1950s and 60s :-)

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You will worry less about Pentax today if you consider Pentax of the past. Pentax has never offered a limitless selection of lenses. Pentax seems more interested in offering a small set of equipment, built to the best standard they can make, and not overstretching their design or production capacity.

I dare to disagree. - Looking at the old 67 system: Which MF competitor offered more?

How about 35mm in the late 70s / early 80s? - I think I am recalling 3 different 135mms offered, about 5 50mms, 4 28mms oddball primes in between the classic choices and fisheye to 2000mm wasn't the most modest range ever covered, was it?

 

IDK if Canikon offered more those days, but what I saw listed seemed like a lot although not the insanely fastest glass ever.

 

I'm not really complaining. - Having just 5 AF primes in total made me ponder & postpone a K1 purchase.

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Pentax had two medium format systems, a 110 system and a 35mm system at one time. Today it arguably has the most complete APS-C/small format lens catalog of any system. Arguably, because it depends on your needs.

 

As far as a 135mm f/2 I don't recall pentax ever making one. They did have a 28mm shift and that's still available used. I wouldn't call that a necessary lens. It's definitely a specialist lens. I personally have a 35mm T&S in pentax k-mount and it's a very sharp contrasty lens.

 

For what it's worth, I've had identical conversations on the life expectancy of Pentax on this very forum in 2006 and 2010. Pentax is still kicking. I'd worry not about if they'll survive but if they provide what you specifically need at the price point you can afford because the image quality of their cameras is always among the best in class and the lenses are always unique in some way. Either they are exceptional quality or they exhibit exceptional characteristics such as a small footprint with better than average image quality.

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Btw, I've never had any pentax DSLR freeze up on me. Which model do you own? I've owned the *istD, K10D, K-7, K-5IIS and K-1. I've also reviewed the K-20D, K-5, K-3 for photo.net. Not once did I have to remove the battery because the camera locked up. Sounds like you have a faulty camera.

 

Try the 31mm f/1.8 or 35mm f/2 if you want a fast 35mm. Both are excellent lenses. There is no 35mm 1.4, but the good news is Pentax never had one in its lens catalog.

 

Sony's sensors overheat and their implementation of noise reduction is terrible for astrophotography. Weather sealing quality is debatable. That amongst other issues are reasons why one might consider Pentax over Sony.

 

Why? I do not understand.

Where are 135/2 and 35/1.4? Where is tilt-shift? If one wants 135 and 35 of top quality, he must get Samyang, no other modern options.

Newcomers to photography go to Sony.

I like Pentax, it is a cool camera but its dials freeze time after time so I have to take the battery out and reboot, but OK (I read about it in instruction manual).

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Btw, I've never had any pentax DSLR freeze up on me. Which model do you own? I've owned the *istD, K10D, K-7, K-5IIS and K-1. I've also reviewed the K-20D, K-5, K-3 for photo.net. Not once did I have to remove the battery because the camera locked up. Sounds like you have a faulty camera.

K-50 and my case is described in the manual instruction (page 275 beginning intro)

 

That is why it is not faulty. It happens 2-3 times a year but it happens. And I do not like this norm. The entire camera does not freeze up - only dials.

My uncle bought a new Kr and it broke, though he shoots little.

Both our cameras are from the officfial dealer with full warranty. I like the quality of 40 mm it is on par with Zeiss glass.

Edited by ruslan
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Try the 31mm f/1.8 or 35mm f/2 if you want a fast 35mm. Both are excellent lenses.

I have never tried but I have read all reviews online and they aren't far in the same league as modern hi-res glass like Canon 35/1.4 L ii or Zeiss 35/2.8 (both ultra sharp) or Sigma Art.

 

I would not want Pentax to share its fate with Contax brand. Contax was also a conservative brand belonging to another company with solid cameras in production and their past glory.

 

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Edited by ruslan
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But honestly I must add a pro of it, the K-50 is a pleasure to use (because of many factors like stabilization, I shoot at 1/8 hand held and get sharp photos, a glass prism, VF with coatings, the best punchy JPEG colors in the world (only fuji could compete), film emulation in Silkypix, 1/6000 for amateur camera and so on. .
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Unfortunately photography isn't a series of test charts and algorithms, it's an art. That's why engineers often are able to take technically perfect but lifeless photos.

 

Great example of this would be the DA 15. It's a rather simple lens that doesn't score particularly well on your (Ruslan's) preferred MTF and other laboratory charts but has quite a following by actual pentax photographers. Even some who lament no longer being able to use it because they upgraded to the K-1 (although I understand it does shoot flawlessly in the optional square crop mode on the k-1.

 

I think you should put down the test charts grab a couple of Pentax lenses and go make some images.

 

And the 43mm limited is an excellent lens in real life. It's one of the reasons I upgraded to the K-1. I was tired of it being a medium telephoto on my K-5IIs and I only shoot 645 film, not 35mm.

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Unfortunately photography isn't a series of test charts and algorithms, it's an art

I would say, fortunately. :)

 

DA 15

It is a lim, I like the pictures it produces, I saw many of them.

 

When new huge 50/1.4 was launched I guessed it was a start of new policy - big and superclean lenses. If Pentax goes this path it must offer this kind of products, several lenses of that class. The sterile and ultrasharp lenses have several pros - they can capture a group of people wide open and even the borders will be sharp and clean. In twilight they are helpful too. 43 is of course has its class and style on FF body. Especially if used for black and white wide open, the face in the centre.

 

think you should put down the test charts grab a couple of Pentax lenses and go make some images.

Exactly.

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I would say, fortunately. :)

 

 

 

When new huge 50/1.4 was launched I guessed it was a start of new policy - big and superclean lenses. If Pentax goes this path it must offer this kind of products, several lenses of that class.

 

If you look at the lenses released with the K-1 they have gone that route, which hasn't pleased everyone. The 15-30 FA is a giant lens, the 70-200 2.8 is, if I am not mistaken, the largest/heaviest 70-200 in production.

 

Pentax can design giant nearly flawless lenses. That just isn't the route they have always chosen to go in the past.

 

So perhaps the days of making compromises to make a compact lens are over. Although, the DA system still offers plenty of compact lenses and the legacy FA lenses still offer great characteristics even if they aren't up to resolution of the current FF sensors.

 

I'll personally be keeping my DA system because it's considerably smaller, lighter and cheaper (in terms of a complete system) than the FA system. It's also not significantly inferior to it in terms of image quality.

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I think they should update 31, 43 and 77 to HD coating, make an affordable high-resolution 85/1.8 and add an amateur full frame camera.

They shoud not give up or stop. Pentax has something that I call joy to use. I had Olympus E-420, F90, Fujifilm X-pro 1 and Nikon D300 and Pentax beats tham all.

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