Hasselblad 120 Makro CF, CFI or CFE ?

[jon_kobeck1]

I am looking for a 120 Makro. the CF version is lower priced then the latter models. I will be using it with a 501CM.

Is it worth spending the extra few hundred for the CFI or CFE or is the CF basically the same image wise?

[paul_loveteck]

<p>Jon,<br>

Image wise they are the same. If you take a CF or CFE or CFi 120mm in the same (good) condition, you won't be able to see a difference.<br>

I compared them on a good tripod, same everything else. No visible difference.<br>

Mechanically, the CFE/CFi are a little easier and smoother to focus. They also have a locking mechanism for the flash synch socket which avoids the cable to drop by itself. For some applications this is an improvement however in some other cases it's a real pain. For example, if you need to use a flash and you have to change lenses often, it's a pain. Another case is when you use a digital back like the PhaseOne requiring a cable, changing lenses becomes a pain with the CFE/CFi.<br>

This being said, statistically a CFE/CFi has a better chance to be in good condition as it is newer.<br>

Of course, a CF lens recently cla'd will be preferable to an unknown CFE/CFi.<br>

Whatever you buy, be sure there is a possibility to return and/or a warranty.<br>

Another point to consider: cla of a CFE/CFi is significantly more expensive than a CF and more difficult to find a lab doing it.</p>

[douglas_fairbank1]

<p>Really? A cla (or service) of a CFi or CFE is more expensive? There is no reason it should be. There are some changes to the design of the shutter in the CFi/E and there are more external differences but the mainspring and blades remain the same. I charge the same labour rate for all the shuttered lenses regardless.</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

Jon,<br>If anything, don't pay a premium for an CFE version. The Databus contacts the CFE version has are of no use on a 500 series camera.<br><br>The CF lenses have a friction fit collar to grip the flash cable. I find it easier to use the push button locking mechanism of the CFi version than to wring the connector out of the CF's friction fit collar.<br><br>And i too wouldn't know why a cla of a CFi version would be significantly more expensive.

[paul_loveteck]

<p>To whose who don't know why a CFE is more expensive to repair:<br>

This is not my personal opinion: it is based on prices I was charged.<br>

When asking, two technicians gave me similar answers: a CFE lens costs significantly more than a CF, so their financial risk to damage something like scratching a glass or a ring (yes, it happens to all, even the most careful) is higher and they charge more to cover this risk.<br>

For the same reason, they will charge you more for a cla on a SWC than a 500C/M even so the 500C/M is much more complex.</p>

[steve_barrett]

<p>"two technicians gave me similar answers"<br /> <br /> Perhaps you should have asked a third technician...like David Odess.<br /> <br /> His website doesn't indicate that he charges a different rate for CFE or Cfi lenses. He CLA'd my 60mm CB lens recently and charged the same as for a CF lens. The 60mm CB is essentially the same as a 60mm CFi.</p>

 

[paul_loveteck]

<p>Steve,<br>

I would appreciate if you read my messages carefully before answering.<br>

I said that I was told cla of a CFE lens is more expensive than a CF because of the insurance VALUE of the lens. In fact I even added that a simpler job like cla of an SWC is more expensive than a 500C/M (without cla of the lens itself) simply because of the much higher value of the camera.<br>

I could even add that cla of a CFE is even more expensive as if you need to ship your lens (to David for example . . .), the insurance you pay for shipping will be much higher (check it please if you don't believe me).<br>

I certainly know David and have used his service multiple times to my great satisfaction. If I don't use him all the time it is simply because he is thousands of miles away and time to do the job (including S/H) is often important for me.<br>

Finally, contrary to what you say, 60mm CB's and CFE's are mechanically very different even so they are optically identical (which is not the case of the 80mm).</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

The 60 CB and CF<b>i</b> (read messages carefully ;-) ) are not very different. The same mount, with the same shutter, just lacking the "F"-mode knob.<br>(The CFE would also not be very different, but there never was a CFE version of this lens.)<br><br>I never heard this thing about higher insurance values before. and i'm not surprised that i haven't. Business insurance covers a maximum amount in liabilities. Shops do not contract a new policy, with new premium, for every single item they take on. Imagine the paper work...

[paul_loveteck]

<p>Q.G.<br>

I was not very clear and you misunderstood me.<br>

What I mean is not an insurance policy but their "own" insurance: they know that once in a while they will damage something and they will have to fix it at their own expense. When this happens, often they don't even tell their client.<br>

Each time a tech takes in a mint 903SWC for cla, he assumes the risk of damaging a $6K+ camera. If the camera falls down from his bench or some other bad things happens to it, he has to pay for it. <br>

By charging more on expensive items, he distributes his risk over many repairs, acting like his own "insurance".</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

Yes, Paul, that was well understood.<br>That sort of insurance doesn't care about what individual items these shops handle might be worth. The premium is set for a set maximum amount of coverage (per claim and/or per year), and you pay that premium whether you handle ten items a week or none at all.<br>That is no reason why a CLA of an expensive item would be more costly than that of a less valuable item. You do spread the costs (not of the damages - you don't pay the $6K or $60 or $0.06. That's what you have insurance for - but of the premium you pay) out over all items, but equally, as a set margin (hoping that you get enough work to keep your shop open).<br>That, because you do not know how many more valuable and how many less valuable items you are getting this week, next week, the week following that, etc. The time alone to adjust the amount to add, based on what what you got through the door - valuable or less valuable - last week, adjusting a prognosis of how many less and more expensive items you might get to recoup the insurance premium over, calculating and recalculating to make sure that the premium payment is covered by the end of the year, costs much more time than you would want to spend on something so unnecessary while not making any economical sense. An unneccesary variable - the value of an item you might damage.

[steve_barrett]

<p>"... 60mm CB's and CFE's are mechanically very different even so they are optically identical"<br /> <br /> First I've heard about that...and also about the insurance issue you raised. Interesting, indeed...<br /> <br /> Maybe you can tell something about the mysterious Zeiss 120mm CB Makro for Hasselblad. I've been trying to get information on that lens without much success....</p>

<p>You might just be the fellow who knows all about it.</p>

<p> </p>

[douglas_fairbank1]

<p>There are 120mm CF, CB, CFi and CFE, lenses. I believe them to be optically the same, the optical parts have the same code in my manuals so that means the optics are the same as far as Zeiss is concerned. The CB lens will have no 'T' setting and closely resembles the CFi.<br>

When shipping lenses to customers the CFi and CFE have a greater value and therefore have a 'slightly' higher shipping cost.<br>

The construction of all the above lenses is very similar, there are some small differences in the CF, shutter compared to the later lenses. My service charges for CLA or service (same thing in my opinion) is the same for each of these lenses.</p>

[steve_barrett]

<p>Zeiss manuals indicate the front element of the 120mm CB is different that the 120mm CFI and CFE versions. The 120mm CB front element has a different code than the one for the CFi and CFE.</p>

<p> </p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

I don't about the same or different codes. But different code, if indicating a difference in the part, does not necessarily mean a different optical design. Different mounts may need the edge of the lens shaped a bit differently.

[douglas_fairbank1]

<p>Steve, you and I must have different Zeiss manuals. Mine are dated 2001.</p>

[steve_barrett]

<p>The Zeiss produced manual I saw is online...not sure about the date of its publication.<br /> <br /> It listed these codes for front elements:<br /> <br /> 120 CFi 107 836 0001 010<br />120 CB 107 836 0001 000<br /> <br />Obviously, I have a case of idle curiosity about this lens. As Mr. de Bakker has written in the past, very little is known about the 120mm CB.<br /> <br /> If I needed a 120mm lens, I might well buy a 120 CB just to satisfy my curiosity : )</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

Very little is known, but how much do we need to know? Once a few of these surfaced, there wasn't much mystery about them left.<br>Finding one may prove a tad difficult. There weren't many sold. Because they didn't make it available worldwide and dropped the line entirely at just about the moment they launched the CB 120 mm.<br>The little that is known is that the CB version (probably ;-) ) isn't any different from the other versions as far as the optical design is concerned. One of the reasons why the CB line was a bad idea and was discontinued.

[steve_barrett]

<p>I've seen a couple of 120CB's for sale at 2 well-known photo stores in the USA recently. That's what inspired my interest. The price being asked in excellent condition is $600-650. That is a good price compared to the typical price of a used 120 CFi/CFE. One for sale at Adorama, that includes its box, has remained unsold for several months.</p>

 

[paul_loveteck]

<p>My manual says:<br>

120 CB Front element: 107836-0001-000<br>

120 CFi Front element: 107836-0001-010<br>

The associated holding rings and all other glass elements have the same part numbers so I suspect that the the two front elements are optically identical.<br>

Most other internal parts are identical, except for the shutter assemblies.</p>