Strobes for daylight-exterior formals: [large groups; direct-sun]

[studio460]

<p>I was planning to use a single, 1,000 Watt-second, Speedotron Force 10 monolight for daylight exteriors of large groups (just assume worst-case: hard, direct overhead sun--no open shade, no silks, etc.). However, I'm going to pick up a second Dynalite Uni400Jr. for use on another shoot I have coming up anyway. So, I was thinking that two Dynalight Uni400Jrs. may be better for daylight exteriors for large groups, rather than a single 1,000 Watt-second source. Using the two Dynalights, I'll have slightly better light distribution, and a total of 800 Watt-seconds (no modifiers). Just so you know what I have now (including the soon-to-be purchased, second Dynalite):</p>

<p>x1 Speedotron Force 10 [1,000Ws]<br /> x2 Dynalight Uni400 Jr. [400Ws]<br /> x1 Quantum Qflash Model T [150Ws]<br /> x1 Nikon SB-800<br /> x4 Nikon SB-600<br /> x1 Dynalite XP-1100 AC inverter + x3 PC680s (new)<br /> x2 Vagabond Mini-Lithium AC inverters<br /> x2 Quantum Turbos<br /> x1 Jackrabbit</p>

<p>I like the Dynalites because I can power both units from a single Dynalite XP-1100 AC inverter. Also, when plugged into 110VAC, the Dynalights recycle pretty darned fast--1.3 seconds at full-power (plus, they also can run on either Quantum Turbos, or my Jackrabbit if needed, for other mobile applications).</p>

<p>I'm planning to test both set-ups (Speedotron/Dynalites) in the back yard in hard midday sun as soon as I get a chance. Is 800Ws (two Dynalights) enough, or should I pick up a second Speedotron Force 10 for a total of 2,000 Ws? Also, just curious . . . what's everyone else's strobe of choice for harsh, midday, daylight-exterior group shots (again, assuming worst-case, direct-sun--no other available options)?</p>

[studio460]

<p>One more thing . . . the Dynalights are very compact, and very lightweight--only 3.6 lbs. The Speedtrons are huge, and heavy as heck--8 lbs. (seems heavier since the fixture is so bulky).</p>

[studio460]

<p>Also . . . by "large groups," I mean the largest typical group shot which includes B+G, bridesmaids, groomsmen, flower girl, ring bearer, and both parents and/or grandparents; i.e., the "typical" or average-size, complete wedding party, plus family (just to be clear, I don't mean the entire guest-list type of shot).</p>

[michaelmowery]

Why would you choose to shoot in this scenario? Most pro photographers would seek open shaded area. In any case if

this was the only solution you must turn the group so the Sun is behind them giving more or less a rim light. You then fill

flash the face to your liking. It is best to fill with soft light so use a soft box or umbrella. Two are better than one as it will

evenly spread the light onto your group shot. It is always better to have more power than not enough.

[Ian Taylor]

<p>You're making this way hard on yourself.<br>

Make sure you have a good crew working for you and good luck out there.</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Actually, with wedding work, a large open shaded area is sometimes unavailable more often than any pro shooter would like. Schedule, time of day, and lack of a suitable shaded location close enough to either the church or reception hall can make already hectic group shots even more challenging. I cannot tell you how many times that has happened to me despite the best laid plans. Or suddenly, you are asked to do an extended family group in a shaded area that doesn't cover that big of a group ... and there is no time to scout another location, move the group and re-set up.</p>

<p><strong>In these cases, luck simply favors the prepared. </strong><br>

<strong> </strong>In open sun, or even partial shade with bright midday backgrounds, the problem becomes one of light balance. Using a max sync speed of 1/250 forces you to lower the ISO and stop down the lens enough to keep the backgrounds from blowing out (white sky, washed out foliage or desirable location features, etc) ... leaving the foreground subjects under-exposed. </p>

<p><strong>The answer to this is lighting power ... enough power to balance out the foreground exposure with that of the background .... and do it so it looks relatively natural.</strong><br>

<em>Note: to mitigate the need for massive strobe power to overcome a sun bleached sky, or a beach/water background, you can add an ND filter or polarizer so you do not have to stop down to f/16 or 22 ... and can shoot at f/5.6 or f/8 ... but it still takes some power to then balance the foreground exposure with the background. </em></p>

<p><strong>If you are working alone, I'd go for a one light solution</strong> because in addition to the camera gear, you'll find yourself dragging along a short step ladder to get high enough to see stacked people in a group.</p>

<p><strong>One Dynalite alone may not be enough</strong> ... it is 320 W/s when battery powered. Two of them with 2 batteries, 2 cords, 2 stands, 2 modifiers, etc. is a lot to lug around at a wedding (been there, done that ... then sold the Dynalites).</p>

<p><strong>The issue with using something like a Force 10 mono</strong> is how top heavy it becomes when up 10 to 15 feet with a soft-box type modifier ... someone coughs half-a-mile away, and it'll come down : -)</p>

<p>I think you want<strong><em> at least</em></strong> 600 W/s from a single head used in conjunction with an on-camera speed-light for about 80 W/s more light as fill. Preferably, it'd be a head that also allows adjustments from the camera ... which is why the 640 W/s PCB Einstein with a mini Vagabond lith battery is so popular with wedding photographers <em>(even though I'm not a fan of them myself). </em></p>

<p><strong>In lighting conditions we are talking about here, a soft-box with diffusers in place are ineffective and a waste of lighting power.</strong> At distances needed for groups, all lighting sources are small, thus specular. Even a 4X6 soft-box out-of-frame and up high will produce small pin-prick highlights in the eyes. </p>

<p>The simplest solution for max power from a single head is a Magnum type reflector with bard-doors to feather foreground spill closer to the camera ... not to mention that it is easier to transport and doesn't act like a big sail in the breeze. </p>

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[studio460]

<p>Michael said:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Why would you choose to shoot in this scenario? Most pro photographers would seek open shaded area.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I just said, assume worst-case, direct-sun, no open shade--with no other available, or practical options.</p>

[studio460]

<p>Ian said:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>You're making this way hard on yourself.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Everything I may need would stay in the van unless needed. It isn't hard to be prepared for worst-case. I would say the opposite.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Make sure you have a good crew working for you and good luck out there.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I will <em>always</em> have at minimum one assistant, if not two, who pre-stages each set-up ahead of time. I've lit several thousand shoots for TV with as many as a dozen grips and electricians under my direction--I <em>always</em> make sure I have adequate crew.</p>

[studio460]

<p>Marc said:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Actually, with wedding work, a large open shaded area is sometimes unavailable more often than any pro shooter would like . . . and there is no time to scout another location, move the group and re-set up.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Thanks for your detailed reply, Marc. Yes, these are exactly the type of contingencies I want to prepared for. The plan was to power both Dynalites with house power, or if that's inconvenient or impractical, via the XP-1100 AC inverter (which is still 110VAC, supplying 800Ws). Both Dynalites would be unmodified.</p>

<p>Yes, the Speedos are top-heavy--those would stay in the van, reserved for more extreme conditions. But if needed, I would put them on steel combos or beefy babys with three shotbags each (actually, not me, the assistants would put these there!). I'll probably just go ahead and get a second Force 10, just to be totally covered. Thanks again for all your advice!</p>

[studio460]

<p>Marc said:</p>

<blockquote>

<p><strong>One Dynalite alone may not be enough . . .</strong></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yeah, I didn't think so. Hopefully, most of the daylight exteriors I encounter may only call for the two Dynalites (each, at their full-400Ws output). I'll know soon enough when I perform some tests.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Two of them with 2 batteries, 2 cords, 2 stands, 2 modifiers, etc. is a lot to lug around at a wedding (been there, done that ... then sold the Dynalites).</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Note that the majority of this gear is only for the daylight-exterior formal group shots--I have lighter gear for inside. What did you replace your Dynalites with?</p>

[studio460]

<p>Michael said:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>In any case if this was the only solution you must turn the group so the Sun is behind them giving more or less a rim light.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes, that's how I typically position subjects for TV when I lack the proper lighting/grip equipment (place the subject's back to the sun and fill with whatever I've got). I have a good feel for what's needed in continuous light for these types of lighting conditions, I just don't have that same familiarity with the level of strobe power needed for these conditions yet. I'll be doing quite of bit of testing on my next available weekend to find this out--thanks for your suggestions.</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Most of my lighting is now Profoto with the exception of some additional Hensel Porty and Elinchrom Quadra battery gear. The outdoor stuff is all battery driven and I select them in stages based on need ... Quadra is 400 W/s Lithium and is extremely small, Profoto is a 600 W/s Acute B Lithium which is a bit bigger, and the Hensel is a 1200 W/s Porty Lithium which is even bigger, and one I only use with an assistant's help. </p>

<p>I'm in a different place than you Ralph. I shoot with a camera that syncs to 1/1000 shutter and use Profoto AIR radio which is the only one that syncs that high ... the Profoto Acute B is AIR triggered, and the Hensel Porty has Profoto AIR receiver built-in including full level adjustments from the camera. The EL Quadra also allows level adjustments from the camera using the Skyport radio. </p>

<p>When you do your tests be sure to calculate the distance needed to shoot groups for an 5X7 and 8X10 crop from a 35mm frame. I can't seem to get it through the sculls of my second shooters to frame groups loose enough to crop a 8X10. BTW, do not cheat with a W/A lens because it distorts people on the sides and makes them look fatter. All this will give you a real-world idea of how far away the light has to be, how high it has to be, and how much spread you need to cover the average wedding group. <br>

</p>

 

[studio460]

<p>Yes, I thought I remembered you had the Quadras! Lovely gear! I have sort of the "budget" versions of your set-up! FYI, I noticed that my Nikon D800E syncs incredibly well at shutter speeds above X-sync (up to 1/4,000th before curtain-shadow), with all of my long-tail strobes. In fact, as you may recall, all of my strobes were chosen for this feature specifically. I have to perform new tests to see how much strobe power I'm losing at speeds over X-sync, but the results with the D800E/TT1/TT5 PocketWizards are significantly better than with the D3s (only about 1/2,000th before shutter-curtain shadow on the D3s).</p>

[studio460]

<p>Marc said:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>When you do your tests be sure to calculate the distance needed to shoot groups for an 5X7 and 8X10 crop from a 35mm frame . . . this will give you a real-world idea of how far away the light has to be, how high it has to be, and how much spread you need to cover the average wedding group.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Excellent, excellent advice, Marc! Yes, I was going to perform all of my tests with a tape measure to nail everything down, but hadn't thought to accommodate the difference in aspect ratio of the traditional print formats. Thanks again!</p>

[studio460]

<p>Marc said:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>BTW, do not cheat with a W/A lens because it distorts people on the sides and makes them look fatter.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes, I was just thinking about that. I was planning to use my new Sigma 35mm f/1.4 (stopped-down, of course) for the large group formals (do I need to go longer?). I think it's the sharpest lens I own now. I'll also be shooting the group formals on the Nikon D800E for its increased resolution, so I was thinking to leave a bit of empty frame on each side regardless (since I'll have a few extra pixels to spare).</p>

[fotografz]

<p>35mm lens full frame with a D800 should work perfectly ... especially with a little left on the sides for cropping. </p>

[michaelmowery]

<p>If you find yourself in a situation where the sun light is still hitting the face in a downward angle I suggest you position you stobes below camera height and balance the light so it fills in the shadows. Having the light up higher will only add more light to the already sun lit face and over expose it. This is just an added shooting tip not necessarily for group shots. Distance plays a factor, if you are to far away the effect wont work. Marc has good suggestion with neutral density filter, I was going to mention it but i thought i mite be to much info. That is something i have yet to do as i have been fortunate enough to always find an area to shoot where the lighting works for me. If the light doesn't work don't be afraid to let them know that and suggest to wait an do the shot at the next location or indoors.</p>

[michaelmowery]

<p>Distance always will effect the softness of light. Through my experience 15ft is about the max that i can see a difference with large light sources two 5ft octa. If you don't have a 5ft light source you can still simulate this effect by adding more smaller light sources to create what we call a wall of light. This is obviously not what i am suggesting to use on a wedding as less equipment is more. I am just giving some lighting tips to help you when you do have a shoot that you can do it properly and time is not an issue. Also having a light source low at or just under camera height will also create a beautiful light fill, a technique commonly used in beauty lighting. Yes experiment and practice and get to know your equipment.</p>

[studio460]

<p>Michael said:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>If you find yourself in a situation where the sun light is still hitting the face in a downward angle I suggest you position [your strobes] below camera height and balance the light so it fills in the shadows.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Thanks for your helpful comments, Michael. Yes, if faced with that situation, I was thinking that I may have to get the light "under." Marc also made a good suggestion about the barn doors so that I don't burn up the grass right in front of the lens.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Distance always will effect the softness of light. Through my experience 15ft is about the max that i can see a difference with large light sources two 5ft octa . . .</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I wasn't initially thinking about using modifiers for the group daylight-exterior formals since the source(s) would necessarily be some distance away. Of course I would love to modify the Speedotrons if they have enough oomph (and, if I can get them close enough); though, obviously, time, and other constraints would make this set-up likely only occasionally. However, I do own a 5' octa, and that would be my preferred option for B+G exteriors, and bride's singles. Thanks for the tips!</p>

[shawn_mertz]

<p>With some nikon cameras, and radio poppers you can use flash with very high shutter speeds making a lower f stop possible.</p>

[ellery_chua___singapore]

<p>Shawn what you suggested "high speed syn" comes at a price. In order to syn the flash with the higher shutter speed, the flash is now a series of pops which means there is a significant reduction on the flash power (if you check the manual there is a more detail set of values roughly it like a loss of a min of 50% of power). You may have noticed that most times the SB types flashes then to have to nearer to the subject roughly in the 6 to 9 feet max (it can get as close as 1ft from subject) distance which is in large group shots (say more than 9 people) not workable the flash(s) will be in the shot. If I had to use SB in these cases, they would probably need to be at least 11 to 15 feet away and would have to shoot without modifiers (it is like pulling teeth). But I would rather do this with min a quantum head or best a 500w onwards strobe. Indoors the equation does reverse for mood shots, where you do not need to raise significantly the levels of the background.</p>