mary_maria Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>I have a very clear and concise contract, outlining payment schedules, due dates, and cancellation policies. However as a person with a heart, occasionally I've given people a break and never before has it caused me this much headache. I require in my contract for my brides to pay their retainer fee at contact signing, 1/2 of the remainder 6 months out and the remainder the week before the wedding. </p> <p>This particular bride has stressed money issues from the beginning; looking for ways to save money in every avenue possible. I ultimately ended up giving her a huge discount on her wedding package to trade services for my own wedding the following week. The week prior to her wedding, when I typically will meet with clients to receive final payments and go over the schedule the day of the wedding, she called me in tears to let me know she didn't have the money, and begged me to let it slide. I told her I'd still shoot the wedding (although my contract states I'm not obligated to) and did so. She said she'd pay right after the wedding, which was October 13.</p> <p>A few weeks later, I received a payment from her for 1/3 of what she owed; a check she asked me to hold for a week before cashing, and then demanded I give her some 'sneaks' of her wedding to look at on facebook, as I typically do for all my clients 1-2 weeks after the wedding while I process the remainder of their photos. This is usually done for clients because they've paid in full, I don't mind doing favors.</p> <p>She begged, I caved. I put up 7 pictures on facebook. Now she is saying that she only owes x amount of dollars and she should at least get to see her photos. She insists it will be paid in full before Christmas. However, he late payments have affected my business and my ability to pay myself - putting me out for my own Christmas shopping this year.</p> <p>What are my legal rights here? What should I do? I don't want her to flip out and say my business is bad and unwilling to help. And she made my wedding cake, which was lovely. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e_rin Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>If I was you, I wouldn't give her any more photographs or sneak peeks until she pays you in full. She shouldn't have signed the contract saying that she would pay you before the wedding if she had no intentions of paying until a few months after. Be honest with her and let her know that her lateness is now affecting you and your business personally. Let her know that you have already gone above and beyond for her by making exceptions to your own rules. If your contract says that you were not required to shoot her wedding without payment in full, then she shouldn't expect to receive photographs before she has paid you. Let her know that the photographs are ready and will be sent to her as soon as she makes the payment in full.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt_kalkstein1 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>It sounds like you've extended yourself waaaaaaaaay more than enough. If she winds up using Facebook as a venue, as some do, I don't think you have to worry about backlash - as long as she tells the truth. I bring that up just to make sure you're prepared for it.<br> It also sounds like you have your bases covered legally, so if you need to use the court system for this, you should win (how long it takes to get the money might not make it feel that way).<br> I'd vary things a little from what E Rin suggested. I think it IS a good idea to write her a letter, but I don't think you should include anything about how her lack of timely payment has affected you. That's appropriate for something more casual like a conversation. I'd limit the content of the letter to the facts and legalities: We entered into a contract that stipulates 1, 2, 3; MM Photography has upheld its obligation by doing A, B, C. After that, I'd get firm, but not threatening - this time. I'd conclude with something like, "please have this paid in full by no later than..." If that date comes without payment, I think the next letter notifies her of likely court action.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daverhaas Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>I would not show her any more images - stating that it is not your business practice to give / show images until payment in full has been received and that you've already compromised that for her.</p> <p>I'm assuming you paid in full for any balance, on the cake?</p> <p>Inform her that per the terms of your contract, all images will be delivered to her as soon as payment in full is received and that (assuming they are) the images you haven't shown are on par with the ones that you've shown. </p> <p>The challenge is - how much of a heart to have? Based on your side of things, you've accomidated her, you've been flexible and now it is hurting your business and you.</p> <p>The other question - is she saying the amount she owes is different that what you believe it is? If she is saying that - then I'd get out the contract, bank statements, deposit slips, receipts, etc... to be able to prove to her that a) here's the amount we agreed upon, b) here's the amounts you paid and the dates and c) here's the amount you still owe.</p> <p>Worse case - and this is the worse case scenario - to be used only when all other efforts have failed, you could take her to conciliation or small claims court. There are varying requirements, fees, and other things to consider with this option, including how much bad publicity will you get from her if you do haul her to court?</p> <p>A final thought - since she is also a wedding vendor - maybe there is a way for her to work off some or all of what she owes - Ie - you book a wedding she recommends you too, she gets a portion of her fee reduced. You get a signed contract and retainer for a future wedding... Another thought might be for her to give you referal $ if you recommend a couple to her and they have her do their cake... Just thinking outloud here...</p> <p>Dave</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccosh Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>I agree with everything that has been said, I hope you never paid for her to make your wedding cake. Deduct this amount from what she owe's you and then invite her over to sit down with you and view her images on your computer. Explain to her that you can't release them to her until you have received payment in full. Your happy to set up a payment plan that will work for her and maybe even help her find work by promoting her wedding cakes to other couples that you have booked to shoot their weddings. If her cake was good for your wedding then help her find work and be able to pay you. You have nothing to loose and could be a win win situation. If her Wedding Cake business grows then she will return the favour by sending work your way. Better making a friend by helping her than making an enemy. <br /><br />Hope this helps.<br />John<br /><br /><br /></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Ian Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>Based on your description of her behavior, I'd be surprised if you manage to make this a win-win situation. While I would certainly try (and the suggestions regarding marketing are great!), I wouldn't expect it to turn out well. It seems likely she will <em>continue</em> to abuse every opportunity you give her.</p> <p>Instead, you should be prepared to hold your ground. I wouldn't have posted the facebook pics, but it <em>is</em> an effective sales tool. (showing her what she is missing) I assume the modification to your contract (cost and payment terms) was executed in accordance with the terms therein. The only additional thing you could do (perhaps as an incentive) would be to post a gallery with very small max viewable sizes, and HUGE, OBNOXIOUS watermarks. She (of course) could not do anything other than view images that are too small to print. I get the feeling that she is the type who will screen capture, and try to print them, and if she gets the opportunity to do so (and print approaching reasonably decent prints), I doubt you'll ever see the remainder.</p> <p>Obviously that limitation would disapear as soon as she paid, and I would keep an eye on her FB feed and be prepared to respond to any desparaging comments with a simple (public) reminder that she hasn't paid you yet (though obviously curteously). I don't like to do that, but you should be prepared for her to make it an issue, and be prepared to respond appropriately.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_deerfield Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <blockquote> <p>However as a person with a heart, occasionally I've given people a break and never before has it caused me this much headache.<br> </p> </blockquote> <p>Everyone offered some great situational advice. To add to that: it isn't personal, it's business. You can have a heart of gold, but you still don't work for free. It's two very different things. However this turns out, let this be a lesson: business is business. Otherwise there would never be any need for contracts because we are all wonderful people... :)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mary_maria Posted November 27, 2012 Author Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>Thanks so much for the responses! I've chosen to hold my ground on this, I offered to allow her to come by the office to look at the pictures if that's really all she wants to do but she's admitted at this point she thinks coming to our office would be 'awkward'. I'm continuing to get updates, daily, on how her financial situation has been changed because of this, that, or the other.</p> <p>It's unfortunate that people like this can ruin us for other good people. I doubt I'll be so forgiving in the future. Just hoping to get my money out of the situation.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Stop fooling around with analyzing intentions and getting worked up over this straight forward breach of contract issue. Don't invite the client to the office to look at photos. It wiil only satisfy curiousity and increase odds of stalling further on payment. It may even prompt gratuitous complaints in order to seek discounting. The advice on having nothing to lose is wrong (as was using the word loose). The person is in financial distress and unreliable. Spending time and risking a bad referral for your reputation and still not getting paid is a high risk outcome. Surely she has other expenses to pay as well which may be higher in priority. Stop everything, hold off all pic viewing and delivery until paid and note for the future that when you allow deviations from your contract (without officially modifying it) that could cause a court to allow deviations in the reverse to your detriment as well as repeating this type of event needlessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Stop fooling around with analyzing intentions and getting worked up over this straight forward breach of contract issue. Don't invite the client to the office to look at photos. It wiil only satisfy curiousity and increase odds of stalling further on payment. It may veven prompt gratuitous complaints in order to seek discounting. The advice on having nothing to lose is wrong (as was using the word loose). The person is in financial distress and unreliable. Spending time and risking a bad referral for your reputation and still not getting paid is a high risk outcome. Surely she has other expenses to pay as well which may be higher in priority. Stop everything, hold off all pic viewing and delivery until paid and note for the future that when you allow deviations from your contract (without officially modifying it) that could cause a court to allow deviations in the reverse to your detriment as well as repeating this type of event needlessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natureslight Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>I am a writer who also does photography, generally in support of the writing. I put this upfront, so you can better weigh the advice I have to offer. I do a great deal of work for not-for-profit organizations, particularly those dedicated to environmental causes or to education. When I first began I was a bit shy about setting my prices and then collecting what was due. After all, I believe in many of the causes my clients work to uphold. In addition, this was a major change in career for me and I felt somewhat inadequte, particularly on the photography side of the business. However, after doing this work for almost six years, my attitude changed dramatically. I'm a push over for causes reflecting my personal values; however, I have learned the hard way how to separate emotion from business. <br> After hearing, for something like the tenth time, the words "but, this is such an important cause, can't you give us a break on the costs?" I stopped accepting the undeserved guilt and began getting tough. If a potential client contacts me for a job and asks for a reduction in fees, I decide - <em><strong>BEFORE</strong></em> signing a contract - whether I wish to offer this discount and why. The terms of payment, the payment schedule and the terms of the job are clearly spelled out in the contract and the client is free to have the contract examined by their legal representative should they choose to do so. Once the contract is signed I make no exceptions or alterations unless I were to fail in some manner (Has never happened and hopefully never will). I've learned that when a client shows reluctance or nervousness about the payment schedule or terms, it's time for me to rethink taking the job. I still support causes in which I believe and still do a lot of volunteer work, but it's my choice, not the "client".<br> I think you're being taught an important lesson: when a client begins by discussing her/his money issues and continues seeking ways of cutting costs and then fails to make timely payments, it's a clear warning of trouble to come. A lot of people want services which they cannot afford and these folks will weedle and deal to get what they want, but you will always come out the loser.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>From a Business Perspective, you have two options:</p> <ul> <li>change the manner in which you address this customer which requires a firm but polite request payment in full before any further work is made, including your time and at and supply of a viewing of the Photography. </li> <li>continue with the emotionally involved ‘negotiations’ to reach an outcome which is might be ‘pleasurable’.</li> </ul> <p>Taking only one side of the story as the facts it appears that this Customer is stretching the elastic and will continue so to do, until an ultimatum given.</p> <p>It is your choice how you wish to <em><strong>run your business</strong></em>: <em><strong>and that is the crux of this issue.</strong></em><br> That does not mean that one never provides pro bono or supports clients’ other needs – but my rule in business is that I support clients’ needs or provide pro bono, such that I control it, not them: and from your story, this Client was very much in control way, way - long ago.<br> Nothing will change unless you change it – and that means a change in viewpoint, standpoint and attitude, from you.</p> <p>WW </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccosh Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>I'm glad I don't do business with the vast majority of you. Yes business is business but every one of my clients I regard as a new friend and get repeat business and referrals from every single one of them. Maybe because I help them where I can and not stick a knife in their back.<br /><br />You have control and always will have control of this situation while you hold the images, it's what you do with this control that will decide if you have someone working against you or with you. <br /><br />Is your client in a position where she can pay you in full today, doesn't sound like it... Does she want her wedding images, I presume yes then you have control. Images will be handed over when payment is received in full. End of story.<br /><br />Now you can help by offering payment terms and be seen as the good guy by helping. Again though no images until payment is received in full.<br /><br />Or you could dig your toes in and demand payment. You can't get blood out of a stone so good luck with this one unless she is not telling you the truth with her finances.<br /><br />While you hold the images you have control of the situation. So accept that your not going to get paid in full soon, so give her a time frame if you must for her to pay her debt off with the images only handed over when payment is made in full. <br /><br />John<br /><br /><br /></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <blockquote> <p><strong><em>You have control and always will have control of this situation while you hold the images</em></strong>, it's what you do with this control that will decide if you have someone working against you or with you.</p> </blockquote> <p><br /><strong><em>and </em></strong></p> <blockquote> <p><strong><em>While you hold the images you have control of the situation.</em></strong> So accept that your not going to get paid in full soon, so give her a time frame if you must for her to pay her debt off with the images only handed over when payment is made in full. </p> </blockquote> <p>No. <br> <em><strong>Control of the situation</strong></em> was <em><strong>lost</strong></em> months ago.<br> It is now limited control of the brushfire, which at the moment is out of control.</p> <p>There is a big difference.</p> <p>WW</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccosh Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>William, Mary still has control as she has the images. She never had control of when she would be paid for them so she hasn't lost control of anything. Yes she had a contract that stated payment was due before the wedding but she never ever had control of this being honoured that always remained with the client. <br /><br />John</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <blockquote> <p>"Mary still has control as she has the images"</p> </blockquote> <p>Nope.<br> Read the OP.<br> Mary has very little control.<br> She is fretting, to say the least.</p> <p>WW</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Its bizzare for John M. to describe "the vast majority" here as backstabbers. Worse is that the advice given is the same as the practices condemned. Granting a time frame. Namely, tendering imagery when there is payment. The only substantial difference is the claim that every single customer are best buddies who, in every single case, return for more services as well as refer work. Even if it were true, it has no relevance to the advice given which is the same as all us backstabbing cretins gave. No one is suggesting being mean. We're suggesting establishing control. The same theme as here. At least to the extent that is left with the imagrry not yet released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>I did like the phrase and also the generalized attribution of: "<em>stick a knife in their back</em>"<br> But "<em>bizzare</em>" just tickles me a tad more - nice juxtaposition and certainly relevance.<br> "<em>cretins</em>" - that's an oldie but a goody. I haven’t been called a cretin for many years.</p> <p>We spell ‘bizzare’ – ‘bizarre’.<br> Is yours a US spelling? Or were you just passionately stuck on tremolo, over the ‘z’ </p> <p>WW</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 It is also somewhat misleading to say Mary had no control over when she would be paid for images. She had the ability to require it beforehand or to walk. She chose neither. Note the word "chose". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Having mentioned grammatical error elsewhere, I humbly concede error William. Accidental as it may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccosh Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>Sorry if I offended you John H. I was not referring to any one on here as a back stabber. I was saying you can either assist where you can to help this women pay for her images or stick a knife in her back and say sorry pay up now or nothing.<br /><br />Mary decided to do the job even though she was told beforehand that there was more than a possibility that payment was going to be a problem. I would have done the same in Mary's situation.<br> Once you have the images then you have something to sell. Walk away with the non-refundable deposit would have left you no option to make any more money out of this. That was Mary's choice to make.<br /><br />Now as stated she can either help her client and get paid in full all be it sometime in the future or walk away with nothing but experience. Mary has nothing to loose by trying to help her client pay for her images.<br /><br />John<br /> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joleigh_van_hoy Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>Have any of you actually sent someone to collections? What's the process and cost - and should I pass that cost along to the client after giving ample warning? Luckily, haven't had to do it yet, but I'm really close with two clients.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>I suspected it was just a momentary case of loose typing: though it is unlike you to lose control.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joleigh_van_hoy Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <p>BTW I work with Mary and had the honor of fielding all the pleading text messages from this bride. She also got away with not having to pay for several other things as we were in forgiving moods but I'd have to sit the woman down in front of our finances and show her line for line what she has NOT had to pay for because we were being forgiving. There wasn't a whole lot of warning that they'd be rough to collect from. We sat with her and the parents at the end of the wedding day and that's when we got our first inkling that this might take a while. Most important lesson learned - DO sit down and go through the contract clearly so that there is absolutely no confusion on the back end. I've certainly learned that one. Holy hell. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 <blockquote> <p><em><strong>Have any of you actually sent someone to collections?</strong></em> What's the process and cost - and should I pass that cost along to the client after giving ample warning? Luckily, haven't had to do it yet, but I'm really close with two clients.</p> </blockquote> <p>Yes. But not a Wedding Client: a Commercial Client.<br> Costs vary according to jurisdictions – so does the procedures: and so do the options available to you.</p> <p>WW</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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