un happy clients - may use legal action

[m_belloway]

so i shot a wedding for a couple, who found me on my gumtree add which was called 'cheap student wedding photographer'. they

booked with me after we met and discussed what they would like they told me the venue the date and that they were not very interested

in set up shots of them etc. i told them i do more natural shots. i told them it would be £50 per hour of wedding photograohy. so they

decided that they would like me for 4 hours, for £200 pounds. they then told me that they would like a wedding album i told them that i

had not sorted out prices yet but it would be £25+.

 

i then turned up to there wedding the groom was lovely but the bride was awful. a few days before we had emailed amd they had given

me a few list of things they would like the usual stuff a few pictures of them, family and couple shots and bridesmades.

i took over 900 images, i hold my hands up and admit i forgot to take the couples shots but am i only a student and this was only one of

my first weddings.

 

so anyway i come to edit the images, a few arent the best but obviously i cant afford the best equipment to make the best images aas i

am only a student and dont charge much so they cant expect the best. i edited and sent them over 150+ images.

 

they have now come back to me with a long list of things that they said i havent taken, ones of i had and some they never asked me to.

they are expecting that i should give them the full 200 pounds bacl, but for what i sent them i think 200 pounds is good wnough i have

also offered to give them all the images for free and a free shoot to compensate for the lack of couples images.

but i dont think its fair i should give them the 200 pounds back, 100 i seem faor enough at a push because of the lack of couples shots.

but i spent over 15hrs editing there images and gave them an extra hour for freee on the wedding day so i think they have paid for my

time and the pictures fairly.

 

im expecting that they will take legal action when i inform them i am not keen on the idea of giving them money back.

 

sorry that didnt make much sense. i dont want to pay the 200 back and i dont think its fair that they want me to

 

what should i do?

[john_williams]

<p>It is hard to start out, but as you gain experience and equipments you will get better. Good luck with that.</p>

<p>Also, the way you write, w/o caps and some punctuation, makes me think you are not too serious about things or your work anyway. Thanks.</p>

[personalphotos]

<p>You don't say what type of student you are or what you are studying. Is it photography? Is it public school or post secondary education?</p>

<p>First, did you have anything in writing with them? Emails that outline your skills and experience or a contract that outlined what was expected of you as their photographer.</p>

<p>Second, for a fee of £200, I would expect that there is not much here for them to sue over, certainly it would be small claims court and nothing more. It's not worth their time to go much beyond that to get 'damages'. Who knows though if they get the right lawyer and judge. You could be in for a much larger cost and it's almost a 100% guarantee that you would loose a case like this. If they did take this to small claims court, you would most certainly have to refund them the fee and also have to pay any court related fees or costs. Give them the refund now and get this behind you.</p>

<p>If I were you, I would refund the full amount and in writing, have them sign off that there are no further business deals between you and the couple regarding this wedding. You were very unprepared for the job at hand and never should have been charging if you didn't have the experience or the equipment to do the job at hand.</p>

<p>Let me put this another way. If I hired a car mechanic student to fix my car and he advertised he could do the work but in reality didn't have the experience or the tools to get the job done right. Then I would have a claim against him. If I told him to fix the brakes and he forgot and then if I got in a car accident because the work he did was poor and my brakes failed as a result of that work, he did not deserve to get paid for substandard work. I would get my refund without question.</p>

<p>This will also come across as unfair but each and every experienced photographer or car mechanic or what ever other occupation, had to apprentice in their profession before they were ready to do the work for a fee. They took the time to learn and gain experience before they were ready to charge for paid work. There are too many people that think this is fairly easy and expect to get money for work they are in no way prepared for.</p>

<p>Last and this will sound harsh, I certainly hope you don't write emails or any correspondence with the couple like the post above. The English, spelling and grammar is very poor and reads like "text speak". From reading this, you come across as very young and unprepared. Please do yourself a favour and learn to write English much better.</p>

<p> </p>

[william-porter]

<p>You should do everything possible to make them happy — or at least to mitigate their dissatisfaction. If they do sue you, it's going to cost you way more than the £200. Forget about the money. This is a lesson you should be willing to pay £200 to learn.</p>

<p>Try to meet with them in person. Bring a refund check. Remind them politely that you told them you were a student photographer. (I'm assuming here you DID make this clear to them.) And tell them you are determined to work with them now to give them what they want, as far as you can at this date. Remember, you do not meet them as equals. You were hired as a craftsman — in other words, you're basically a servant. It isn't true that the "customer is always right" but close enough that it doesn't matter much. </p>

<p>My lawyer wife isn't here to confirm this but I suspect she would suggest that you try, as nicely as possible, to trade the refund check for some sort of written release. Unfortunately I have no experience with this sort of thing and I'm not completely sure how you handle it or how you word the release. Anyway, pertinent law in the UK might be very different from law in Texas. I suppose they'd acknowledge getting their money back; they'd acknowledge that you've offered to work with them to provide, insofar as possible, the couple photos they most would like retaken. But you might want to get more formal advice on that.</p>

<p>You are by your own admission not an experienced wedding photographer. You didn't say anything about a contract so I've gotten the impression you didn't have one. (Bad mistake, that.) Anyway, the point I'm making is, you aren't an established, confident craftsman in a strong position to defend yourself against their complaints. </p>

<p>I am curious about something. Did you show them a portfolio before they hired you? I mean, did they see a good and representative sample of your work? Or did they hire you simply because they found your ad and liked your price?</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>Will</p>

<p>p.s. Do be careful about what you say here. These forums are public. Think about what that means. Never say anything on the Internet that you wouldn't want your clients to see. </p>

[m_belloway]

i was writing on my phone, hard to write sorry

[Marcus Ian]

<p>Ah yes, computers are still good for some things it seems ;-)</p>

<p>I would agree that you would loose any kind of legal case brought against you. If you give them back the money (which I'm sure you've already spent), then that puts the legal terms into a much more gray area, because then they haven't actually given you <em>any</em> consideration for your time and work. (and so your responsibilities are mitigated somewhat), which generally makes a 'contract' (which the judge will assume you guys have) nearly unenforceable. Give them back their money - it's the best thing you could do at this point to. Also give them every image you took. </p>

<p>Doing both of those things would make it much more likely that you would 'win' (or at least not 'lose') a legal case brought against you. Especially if you can provide a significant amount of evidence that you are naive, and unexperienced, and kind of ditzy (but well-meaning). The ad would be a great example, as well as any emails in which you were like "what's a processional?" or "do you want prints to go with the album?"</p>

<p>If they do bring an action against you, I would go through the entire day, and select the best of the best images, and make them better, and build a short 'album' for the judge to see what they got for free.</p>

<p>This would also be a great example of why wedding pros are <em>professionals</em>, and why we have contracts (though most of us won't shoot a wedding for $350) ;-)</p>

 

[andrewkurcan]

<p>I'm not trying to be mean, but it would benefit you greatly to go out and work as an assistant/2nd shooter BEFORE you try and take clients on your own. </p>

<p>In this business your reputation is everything. Talent, refinement, and determination aside - it's what people say about the work you do that makes or breaks you. I understand that you're a student, and that at some point you need to get out there and fly on your own - but don't set yourself up for failure! Find someone whose work you like, and work with them! Take this experience as a very real and hard life lesson - don't ever fake when stakes are high, and don't bite off more than you can chew. </p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>If they do sue you, it's going to cost you way more than the £200<br /><br /></p>

</blockquote>

<p>I don't see why. If it goes to small claims court they will just claim the lost amount.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Who knows though if they get the right lawyer and judge.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No lawyers allowed or needed in small claims.<br>

<br /> I would offer a £100 refund for a full and final settlement.</p>

[personalphotos]

<p>Steve, you are so wrong. If they find a lawyer who is willing to sue for emotional or other damages, then this could easily cost 10x or 20x in just legal fees, even if it was thrown out of court. There's absolutely no guarantee that they couldn't take this beyond small claims court.</p>

<p>Give them a full refund, get a signed release and move on. </p>

[william-porter]

<p>Steve,</p>

<p>I could be wrong here about the monetary, out-of-pocket cost of being sued. But I'm not sure. I'm not a lawyer. I know just enough to make myself nervous.</p>

<p>I assume the OP is in the UK. Have no idea whether small claims court works in UK the way it works in Texas. If there was no contract specifically limiting damages, seems to me the client could at least try to claim that it's going to cost them a bundle now to hire somebody new to do things right. Court proceedings are unpredictable.</p>

<p>And besides, there's more to costs than what you pull out of your pocket. Time. Aggravation. Damage to one's reputation if the unhappy client decides to take to the Internet and vent. </p>

<p>The best thing is to manage expectations well beforehand and then do a good job: Under-promise and over-deliver. The next best thing — and it's a very distant second — is to do everything possible to make client happy after the fact. After that, pretty much all of your options suck. <br>

<br />Will</p>

[steve m smith]

<p>This is the UK, not the US! I don't think it will go that far.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>then this could easily cost 10x or 20x in just legal fees, even if it was thrown out of court.</p>

</blockquote>

<p> If it was 'thrown out of court' the defendant would not be liable for legal fees.</p>

[personalphotos]

<p>Steve, if you hire a lawyer to defend you, you pay those costs. Been there, done that and trust me, it can cost a bundle. No way this is worth holding back £100 of a £200 fee. </p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>Steve, if you hire a lawyer to defend you</p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

I wouldn't.</p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>If you give them back the money... ...then that puts the legal terms into a much more gray area, because then they haven't actually given you <em>any</em> consideration for your time and work... ...which generally makes a 'contract'... ...nearly unenforceable.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p><br />Exchange of consideration concerns creating an enforceable contract. A contract is either created because it there is consideration or it is not created because of a lack of consideration. One doesn't 'uncreate' a contract merely by giving consideration back. Such a phenomenon would result in all sorts of absurd situations. Moreover, so many forms of consideration are incapable of being returned.</p>

<p>The issue presented here is whether there is a breach of a contract and, if so, what the remedy is, not whether there is a contract to breach. </p>

[western_isles]

<p>Megan how much experience do you have of photography? If you have, as I suspect, little or no prior experience as a wedding photographer then don't do it until you have built up experience with another pro.<br>

It is yours responsibility to use reasonable skill in the discharge of the contract which you entered into. This is the basis of contract law in the UK. If you don't have the skills, don't take on the job!<br>

Your customer is entitled to take you to court via the small claims system in the UK (Google small claim UK for more information) but I suspect the best they would get would be a refund. However you do not want to go down that path if possible as the publicity would be damaging and hit your pocket. Fortunately, in the UK small claims tend not to award large damages on the scale that US courts do although they can be used effectively.<br>

Brides are never "awful" in the wedding photography game ask the mother of any bride!<br>

You say that "obviously i cant afford the best equipment to make the best images aas i am only a student" (sic). This make me think of the old adage "a poor workman blames his/her tools". I have some terrible images but no one, apart from my wife ever sees them! <br>

I think that you really need some business training, which in the UK can often be available for free, as this will help you sort out the business end of things. <br>

Anyone taking on wedding photography should always remember that they are being expected to capture a special day in the life of at least two people and two families plus others. It could also be a special day for a photographer, by making or breaking a reputation. </p>

 

[john_h.1]

<p>I forgot to add the ultimate result of the notion (uncreating contracts) discussed above which is that contracts wouldn't even be binding. The entire financial world we know of wouldn't even exist.</p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>Fortunately, in the UK small claims tend not to award large damages on the scale that US courts do</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br />Can you cite an instance where U.S. small claims courts award large scale damages? It will be interesting to know of such an occurrence since such courts limit and cap damages. Hence, the name SMALL CLAIMS.</p>

[personalphotos]

<p>Well lets sum up this to this point regardless of the legal discussions that may or may not be accurate (since none of us are lawyers and are only guessing).</p>

<p>To this point, everyone is in agreement that the fees* should be refunded and a release signed upon returning those fees. So I would suggest that Megan find the correct wording for a release and give the refund quickly to try and avoid further issues.</p>

<p>*Steve thinks half but the rest indicate 100%</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Typically US small claims courts put a limit on damages - both that you may ask for and that the judge may issue. It varies by state, but I know in MN it is $7,500 plus fees (Attorney, filing, serving, etc). If the amount goes over $7,500 - it goes to state / district court. </p>

<p>As for the OP's question - </p>

<p>You clearly bit off more than you could chew on this one. Weddings are the perhaps one of the two most important days in a lady's life - with the birth of a child being the other. </p>

<p>You don't get a 2nd chance to make a wedding right - unless you want to spend a ton of money getting everyone back together again, renting tuxes, getting the dress cleaned, hair and make-up, etc... </p>

<p>Which is why wedding photographers have some degree of expertise and experience both we go down this road. We get that experience by 2nd shooting, watching other pro wedding photographers and reading and gaining knowledge about what we need to do to pull off a successful wedding shoot. </p>

<p>When I started doing weddings again 6 years ago - I did some low stress / low cost ones to get familiar with my gear. I was honest with the couples and I HAD EVERYTHING IN WRITING and SIGNED by both sides. I had prospective clients turn me down - because they wanted a more experienced shooter (even though I had been doing photography for years and had done weddings off and on over 20 + years.) </p>

<p>That was fine by me. I learned what works and what doesn't. </p>

<p>What doesn't work in your case is saying that you forgot to get photos of the couple (I'm assuming the bride / groom) and that you only got 150 keepers out of 900. That isn't a good percentage. </p>

<p>I'd suck it up, give the clients the money back (all of it), apologize profusely and let them keep all the images. </p>

<p>Then, if you really want to be a wedding photographer, get experience by offering to 2nd shoot for a real pro. Learn the craft and the business. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

<p> </p>

[william-porter]

<p>I generally agree with David Haas' recent post (as I generally agree with most of what he posts). I want to quibble with just one thing. David wrote:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I'd suck it up, give the clients the money back (all of it), apologize profusely and let them keep all the images.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Agree about giving the money back and don't have an opinion about letting them keep the images. But I disagree with the part in the middle — "apologize profusely". A brief "I'm sorry you're not completely happy" is harmless. It's the word "profusely" that I'm disagreeing with.</p>

<p>Me personally, I'm by nature an apologizer. But I have learned from friends (especially former military, plus some successful business types) and also from my lawyer wife, that in the world of action and business, the best policy is "Do it right, and if you screw up, don't make excuses, don't apologize, just do what you can to make it right." <br>

<br>

The OP's job now isn't an easy one. She cannot blame the client. In other words, can't say, "I told you I was a student and had never shot a wedding and I charged you so little that you should have lowered your expectations". Might be some truth to that, but it CANNOT BE SAID.</p>

<p>But it's equally unprofessional to come out and say, "Oh, I'm so terribly sorry, I really should never have agreed to shoot your wedding because I have no experience and didn't realize what I was getting into." That's a way of <em>denying</em> responsibility, when what the photographer needs to do is <em>take responsibility.</em> The OP took the job. Now she needs to take ownership of the problem. That is, she needs to do her best to complete the job, that is, to pick up the pieces and provide whatever satisfaction it's possible to provide.</p>

<p>You do what you can do, and (to paraphrase Popeye) that's all you can do. If the client's so unhappy that they never want to see the photographer again, then the photographer gives the money back, gets the release, and takes the whole experience as a painful lesson. If the photographer can do more than that — if the client's willing to work a little more with the photographer — then do that. </p>

<p>At least that's how I view it. </p>

<p>Will</p>

 

[rob_caswell1]

<p>In the future, please don't use a couples most important day for practice. Never, never, never, let the clients see your subpar work. Bad word of mouth, poor images, and legal troubles can follow you for a long time and sink your reputation/career before you ever get started. I would refund the money and offer a portrait session.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Thanks for the compliment Will - </p>

<p>You're right - it is unprofessional to babble and blather... but that's not what I advised her to do... I advised her to apologize profusely - which can be done in a professional and courteous manner. If I were her client - I would want her to take responsibility AND apologize. Which I think she can do without sounding like a cop-out or denying / dodging responsibility for her actions. </p>

<p>Something along the lines of: <br>

"I'm terribly sorry that you are not happy with the quality or contents of your wedding photos - I believe that I delivered the best quality images which I could, however, I realize that they are not up to your standards and that key images are not in the set. As a result of that failure, I am refunding the entire amount of monies paid to me for your wedding and I would like to offer you a complimentary family photo shoot. " </p>

<p>Sometimes, with an irate customer - a "sorry" can go a long way toward easing the problem. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[ruslan]

<p><strong>Megan,</strong> many right words have been told to you. BTW, where can we all see your portfolio on-line? So, did they place an order without having a look at <em>your portfolio?</em> <br />And, sign a full contract - what, of what quality, number of photos, length of your working day and the acceptance report after your job is completely done, must be signed. </p>

[fotografz]

<p>Yep, it is ALWAYS the enthusiastic, less experienced photographer's fault entirely.</p>

<p>It has nothing to do with some penny pinching, greedy client that expects Cristal Champagne @ Budwieser prices. <em>(Not to be confused with less fortunate people who expect beer at beer prices, and are delighted if they get more than they paid for). </em></p>

<p>These clients throw the dice, and when it comes up snake eyes and they lose ... they want their money back. Try that in Vegas.</p>

<p>So, I go to Barber college and they chop up my hair so I look like Moe ... then I want my money back because it doesn't look like Jose' Eber styled my hair. Really?</p>

<p>Even the least intelligent person on the planet knows the difference between tin and gold ... so ignorance is no excuse. </p>

<p>The race to the bottom has never been more vividly portrayed than a recent wedding site that advised cost cutting measures include NOT hiring a photographer at all ... just pass out table cameras and rely on friends to shoot one of the most important days of a Bride's life. A true formula for tears and regret. Whom do you sue then ... all of your friends and family?</p>

<p>Buyer beware. You get what you pay for. There is no free lunch. All true to this day.</p>

<p>The clients have to start reaping what they sow, or this will never end and the bottom will become bottomless.</p>

<p> </p>

[m_belloway]

they never asked to see any of my work, im working with a pro at the moment and ive done several weddings of my own

before that went great, it was clear that i was low budget but evet other wedding i have taken on have seen my portfolio

and loved it, the days and the imaging giving when great fpr the rest. ive never made any contracts as its not spmething i

completely want to go in alone, people and find me and ask me online so i say yes.

 

but they never wanted to see a portfolio, even when i offered to bring one when we met. then we neverade a contract

there were a few on and off changing agreements, so everything was very confusing.

 

ive taken the images to a few pro photographers i know amd they say the images are more than worth the 200 pound

they paid. they arent bad images at all, there is one or two that arent great but thats what photoshop is for sometimes.

because of the confusin, i didnt take couples set up shots because i thpught they wanted them naturally and everytime i

offered them to couples they did not want them. amd i did not photograph the bridesmades on there own but did it with

the bride instead. they then went on to give me a list of things we definalty never agreed on that i didnt take, but i never

knew i wanted that taking.

 

i understand that everything hasnt gone completly there way or as plabned and i am happu to refund 100 pounds. but

those images and the time and effort i spent are still worth something.

 

i would of showed you all my images online, but to be honest you are going to rip me apart, if youbwpuld like to see me

portrait fashion stuff then i would be happy to link you all to that? but please exsue that where i would link you isnt my

portfolio its just a place for different people to view it and have a quick look and fhere are some old images on thee.

 

sorry my english is awful when writing on my phone (keys are a pain to ype on, so sorry again)