How much are you willing to disclose when selling your classic?

[ljwest]

<blockquote>

<p>Only one buyer ever took me up on this; he bought a an Apple iBook from me, not realising he couldn't run Windows on it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I learned that any time there is some possibility of a mix-up or inappropriate application of anything I'm selling to be more than abundantly clear of not only what it will do, but what it will <strong>not</strong>.<br /><br /></p>

<p>I was selling some car wheels. This particular car maker sold the exact same design and size wheel for many years, but, somewhere in the middle, there was a change on the car, and the wheel had to change to match. I was abundantly clear that the wheels I was selling would fit cars from year X to Y but not cars starting in Z... It helps to avoid most buyer confusion. Unfortunately, there's always someone who just doesn't get it, no matter how clear you are.</p>

 

[Greg M]

<p>You either know the condition or you don't. I've bought many, many cameras used on ebay, often had them subsequently serviced and then used them enough to know they worked perfectly and wound up re-selling them completely knowegdeable they worked perfectly. If I was not 100% sure they worked perfectly the day I listed them, I said so. Pictures in the ad also go a long way. I also know enough about an item I am looking for to know what I want to know before bidding on or buying it used. If someone says one thing and the pictures say another, the ad sounds like the seller does not know what the heck they're talking about or they do not either answer a question I might ask or answer it in a way I would expect, I don't even look twice and go on to the next item.</p>

[brian_m.1]

<p>>>Tell a buyer not just <strong>what you know</strong>, but also <strong>what you do <em>not</em> know</strong> about the item.<<</p>

<p>What I do <em>not</em> know? That is a very long list which includes the condition of every internal gear, lever, screw, true shutter speeds, aperture openings and perhaps even the veracity the film counter. You don't know what you don't know.</p>

<p> </p>

[Michael R Freeman]

<p>Let Rumsfield be your guide.<br>

-</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p><em>"There are known knowns; there are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns; that is to say there are things that, we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know."</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Once again, making something that is very simple more complicated than it is. :-)</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

Knowing what you do not know is very easy, Brain. I, for instance, do not know your size in shoes. You are not assuming that a buyer of one of your cameras would be interested in that? But yes, maybe it will influence his buying decision... Maybe your nextdoor neighbour's cat's favourite brand of tinned food too... Tell him you don't know that either (or if you do, of course, do tell him) ;-)<br><br>If you haven't inspected whether a camera works or not, you do not know whether the camera works or not. If you have only inspected it so far, you do not know how it is beyond that. Etcetera. Child's play to know what you do not know, and to be frank about it.

[brian_m.1]

<p>If I knew what I didn't know, then I wouldn't not know it. And I'll add to Michael's quote that you go to town with the camera you bought on eBay not the camera you might want or wish to have at a later time.</p>

[simon_bruxelles]

<p>Someone who is prepared to lie about the condition of a camera is not going to care what we say here so I would trust anyone contributing to this discussion. We're not the ones we need to worry about.<br>

I follow a simple rule: my description is as fair, honest and accurate as I can make it but the camera is sold "as seen", with no returns unless misdescribed. How can I guarantee a 70 year old camera that may not have been serviced since before I was born? Even if I have had it serviced myself, I can't be sure that some aged component is not going to fail. Buyers should consider the cost of a service when deciding how much to bid. <br>

The other reason for not accepting returns is the horror stories I've heard of vintage cameras, particularly Leicas, being stripped of parts then returned for a refund on the grounds they do not work. These stories may be aprochryphal but I have had experience of enough difficult customers not to be confident it never happens so I prefer not to expose them to temptation.</p>

[bob_miller4]

<p>Things about camera items offered for auction or sale that have bothered me as a buyer, due to seller nondisclosure or denial:<br /> 1. Frozen-in-place battery compartment lid.<br /> 2. Moldy odor<br /> 3. Fungus on or in lens<br /> 4. Non-functional aperture diaphragm (iris)<br /> 5. Super-stiff focus<br /> 6. Dirt and sand<br /> 7. Inoperative slow shutter speeds<br /> 8. Wrong camera mount named, or none named, and photos don't reveal the actual mount.<br /> I'm also amused/repelled by seller attempts to appear ignorant or illiterate. I guess that's either an excuse in advance for bad merchandise or a way to make buyers think they have an advantage (i.e., that the item is better than the seller knows). I'll grant that some sellers really are clueless.</p>

<p> </p>

[brian_m.1]

<p>Bob,<br>

How would you expect a seller disclose what he is told to be "shutter capping" and explain it in the context and space of eBay auction?</p>

[dennis_w3]

<p>Ebay has plenty of space to disclose the good, bad, and ugly of any item listed, including lots of Kb of space for images. A seller with integrity should not need to decide what to disclose or not to disclose. If the seller is not disclosing a known issue, that person is being dishonest. I can't imagine another way to list anything there.</p>

[brian_m.1]

<p>I will ask that the following link be required reading before they bid. That should cover me.<br>

http://jay.fedka.com/index_files/Page389.htm</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

Brian,<br><br>You: <i>"If I knew what I didn't know, then I wouldn't not know it"</i><br>I: <i>"I, for instance, do not know your size in shoes"</i><br>And still, i do not know it.<br><br>You appear to be rather reluctant about being totally honest about the things you hope to sell. Yet i don't know whether you really are. Do you think the sentence preceding this one makes a difference to how the one before that could be received and understood?<br><br>The important bit you could quote from Michael is that about making simple things complicated. Don't.

[yuri_yupiter3]

<p>I used small outboards I have sold on Ebay I often post a video of the unit in operation. The youtube video shows the motor peeing cooling water from the motor from the impeller. Thus there is no assuming of how well the impeller works based on slimy sales marketing terms. ie no wezzel words</p>

<p>With cameras many folks are insane and loony about tiny flaws like bubbles, nicks and fungus on lenses. With a collector or Leica owner this insanity is greater. These insane folks derate a lens based on looks rather than function thus they are picky about things that do not effect performance. Many are collectors and they shoot few images. The lens goes on a trophy case to view. :)</p>

<p> </p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

Yuri,<br><br>If you want to sell something, it's not wise to judge your buyers on the reason why they want to buy the stuff you're selling.<br>And even if not trying to sell things: people are not "insane" because their motivation to do or have something is not one you share.<br><br>But talking about selling and strange behaviour: it always makes me laugh to see how people chime in on threads started by someone looking for an opinion on a particular bit of hardware, saying that they still have one and ask if the OP wants to buy it. Great recommendation, that: "i don't want that thing, but if you want it, i'll gladly say it's something nobody should be without. So do you want mine?"

[jeff_sudduth]

<blockquote>

<p>I notice everybody agrees that any defect must be disclosed, but that is not the end of the story. Cameras are used to take pictures. Are you willing to guarantee results too? Just because the rewind mechanism works and shutter clicks and the lens has no fungus (BTW, why would fungi choose to live inside glass is beyond me) does not mean that it takes good pictures too. <strong>If you really want to be honest, you have to include actual pictures taken with the camera and authenticate them in some way</strong> to prove that they were produced by that camera. How far down this disclosure path are you expected to go?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Two questions...</p>

<p>Why would it be a problem taking a picture with the camera? Every time I have sold a camera I included a picture taken with it. It's a great idea from a marketing point of view. I get some Velvia 50, a tripod, and a colorful scene and then I snap a picture. I get the film developed and scan it in. I then downsize it for the screen and declare this is a photograph I took with this camera. Any expert knows screen size images don't tell you a damn thing about lens quality. But the average consumer sees the picture and falls in love with the camera and buys it. Frankly nothing distracts from a detailed list of known flaws like a couple of pretty pictures. Heck even alleged pros seem to be susceptible to that kind of marketing. I've had people on this forum request to see pictures I've taken because they think looking at shrunken images on the web is going to tell them the whole story about medium format images taken with Zeiss glass.</p>

<p>Second question is why do you have to "authenticate" the images? Either the buyer believes you or they don't. It's not like you are going to get sued and have to prove something in court. Even if that were to ever occur it is fairly easy to demonstrate the image came from your camera. I mean you have the negative and you can set the camera up and reproduce the results.</p>

<p>I take honest and detailed pictures of any product I sell. I disclose what I know. But I also include some colorful distracting images. I don't dwell on the flaws. I list them but I talk up the pros and show nice pictures. Seriously though check out the market for what you are selling and think about if some flaw would be a deal breaker or require a 20+% discount. If you are selling this camera on ebay you do NOT want the hassle of a disappointed buyer. If there is going to be disappointment it is much better if the defect is clearly stated in the ad and shown in a picture. That way when the buyer demands their money back ebay will tell them to screw off... hopefully.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>With cameras many folks are insane and loony about tiny flaws like bubbles, nicks and <strong>fungus</strong> on lenses.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yuri, fungus grows and from what I understand spreads. I don't want any in my camera bag. If fungus just sat their minded it's own business and didn't affect optical quality I wouldn't be too miffed... assuming it was a sub $100 lens. But if I drop $500 on a Zeiss lens because I am upgrading I want to know about what is living inside my potential purchase. If you know you have fungus living in your lens you need to tell people.</p>

[gary_turner1]

<p>As a collector nowadays (was once a Navy photographer and shot film a lot up until about 5 years ago but rarely now), I often buy vintage film cameras based on cosmetics and bargain pricing rather than concerns about optimum shutter speed accuracy, sluggish aperture blades, fungus, etc. Hence, full functional disclosure is my minor concern. So many film cameras are now being sold by thrift stores, pawn shops. Then there's the younger folks who also generally have no knowledge, interest, or any practical use for their parents or grandfather's 'treasures'.<br>

I have bought several fungus infected and oily jammed aperture blade lenses at low cost (lots of infested Nikkors still out there) knowing I can usually clean up such problems. I rely as much or more on the photos provided (eBay) than description of the camera or lens function. For me it's nice enough to have a camera that not only looks pretty good but also winds and fires at various speeds regardless of accuracy. I can also be satisfied with some dents, dings, Zeiss bumps, and a jammed, rumpled or torn shutter if it's a rare or harder to find camera.<br>

For the diminishing number of dedicated film camera shooters still alive and kicking, there are so many cameras now available at ridiculously low prices that rising postage is becoming more of a concern. <br>

I now still use some of my film camera lenses on a digital SLR and I suppose that's why we see an increase in many lens values compared to the bodies they were once attached to...and a reason there's so many cheap bodies available on eBay at least for the most popular SLRs from the 1960's to early 1980s. <br>

My advice is: if a seller markets their item at a premium price towards a person that will actually use the camera for it's original intended purpose, they ought to disclose all that they are aware of, allow reasonable return policy, but also state that like any camera of its advanced age it may benefit from a professional CLA. Critical buyers with high expectations should ask questions. If the seller is unaware of any faults and/or not familiar with item then their obligation is just to say "it's not been tested". If camera winds and fires at certain speeds then one should say so, and if it hangs or jams, say so. If the seller has no clue about what they are selling they should also say so and sell 'as is' for display or likely in need of repair. It's 'buyer beware' in so many of those situations. EBay for one can be a crap shoot. Buyer also needs to have reasonable expectations based on the amount they have paid and from who they bought it from. In my experience, some eBay buyers can be more of a pain than the sellers!<br>

Final notes: I have bought several cameras from sellers 'without a clue' and ended up with more gems than duds. I have fixed many of my duds and have usually enjoyed that 'priceless' experience. A lot of my working or self repaired cameras have also been passed on to high school photo class students and other film users. My apologies if you find this long winded reply inappropriate or irritating in any way.</p>

[gnashings]

Quite frankly I find this discussion

puzzling. Just think what you would like

to see as a buyer and with that golden

rule you can't go wrong. I always prefer

the sellers who are over describing and

providing lots of photos tO the ones

who don't. If you DON'T know

something then obviously protect

yourself with a statement outlining that

item is described to the best of your

ability but beyond that no guarantees

are made or implied. I don't

understand why anyone who actually

KNOWS cameras would choose to not

disclose anything he or she is aware

of. Not knowing and making that fact

plainly known to the buyers is one

thing, concealing or omitting is just

plain shady and underhanded. We are

dealing with collectible items with a

niche market, so don't tell me you just

can't make the time... Most likely the

person buying the item is much like

any of us here on this forum. I liked

the point about raising the bar, not

trying to squeeze under it...

[kyle_madison]

<p>Brian, you're getting a lot of sage advice and commentary here and you're fighting it. It makes me wonder why you posted this here. Did you think a bunch of camera buyers were going to condone you not disclosing problems with your wares. And let's face it, that's what you're doing. We're not talking about unknowns, we're talking about problems you've admitted to knowing about but don't think are a big deal. If the shutter hiccups every five releases then say so. Let the camera go to someone who can fix it. I sold a Pen F lens with etched fungus on it. I disclosed. I took pictures. I still sold it at near market value. Disclosing pays. Laying leads to headache. I hope we never meet on eBay.</p>