Choosing customers/ saying, "No Thank You."

[thibaud_guerin_williams]

So this summer I essentially dedicated to shooting a few weddings in hope of building my portfolio, making

some contacts with wedding planners and clients' families. And for the most part everything went well. I am

comfortable with my ability. None the less, I am still my own worst critic...im a perfectionist with alot still left to

learn, but that's besides the point.

 

I would like to know how you guys say no to customers you do not want to work for...ie mainly so that you do not

attract clientele that you don't want in the future. In theory it should be simple, but after having a face to face

meeting it is difficult for me to say no.

 

So, going forward for next year and focusing now on branding my business, how exactly would you tell a

customer that based on the chosen location, personality of the couple, etc. that you don't feel comfortable

working with them?

[daverhaas]

<p>First off - keep in mind that the meeting with the client is as much a chance for you to get a feel for the couple as it is for them to get a feel for you. Much the same as a job interview is a chance for the company as it is for the candidate.</p>

<p>If it is clear to you that their expectations are beyond your ability to deliver, if you don't think you can shoot at the venue, if for whatever reason your personality doesn't click (from your point of view) - then the best advice is to be honest with the couple. </p>

<p>Don't make up excuses, don't take a gig your heart or head isn't in - be honest -<br>

"Thank you for taking the time to meet with me today - however, I won't be able to shoot your wedding because I am not confident that I would be able to meet your expectations for photography for the day. I wish you and your future spouse all the sucesses in the world and hope you have a joyus wedding!"<br>

Subsitute the reason for declining after the word "Because" -<br>

- Because I did not feel our personalities were a good match<br>

- Because I am already booked for your requested date (only if you are)<br>

- Because I am not able to meet your demands for copyright / image release...</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[thibaud_guerin_williams]

Do you think it's valid to turn down a wedding based on how you perceive the feel of the whole day will go, or for aesthetic reasons? For example even if you were competent enough to shoot the wedding but the bride told you that the groom and grooms men would be wearing tuxedo shirts and jeans, or you felt the couple was disorganized and that even though you discuss a shot list you have a feeling getting the shots to make it valuable to the clients and your customer would be stressful.

[william-porter]

I defer to David H's greater experience in wedding photography. However I do have experience with this issue, and I

wonder: is it a good idea to make personality an issue?

 

I would NOT say that our personalities didn't match (his words) and certainly wouldn't say that I "didn't feel comfortable

working with them" (the OP's words). If you get the "uh-oh" feeling about a client in time, what you want is to end your

relationship with them as efficiently as possible. You don't want to say anything that could POSSIBLY be understood by

the bride as a personal criticism, a suggestion that she's unreasonable, a bridezilla, impossible to work with, etc. This

hasn't happened in my small wedding practice it it has happened with portrait clients and also in my other small business:

I've turned a client away in such a way that they actually thanked me and thought better of me.

 

Now it's true: if you and the bride don't click, it's to HER advantage as well as yours for her to find someone else. It's just

better if you can find an impersonal way to decline.

 

Good luck.

 

Will

[green_photog]

<p>Looking back at the meetings and weddings I booked, I would say may be 10%-20% of them I was excited to do, thought it was a good match right off the bat. The remaining 80%-90% I was either unsure of or skeptical. If I had gone with my gut instinct and just booked the 10%-20% of the weddings, I would have no business to speak of.</p>

<p>It depends on your personalities, some people just go along with everyone and some people like myself are more analytical and are prone to over analyze. But as a photog we must be able to work with a greater range of people with different backgrounds, charateristics, religions and so on.</p>

<p>To say "no" is easy, I just give them a higher quote. But to know who to say "no" to is hard. In the end, the 80%-90% weddings that I was first skeptical about turned out fine (all but one). So now I tend to base my decision on more objective terms.</p>

<p>Some venues I just don't like doing or are far away, I say no. A 3 hour booking for a summer long weekend Saturday, I say no, as I know it will be taken by other party.</p>

<p> </p>

[savagesax]

Why would anyone refuse to do a wedding? If you are already booked ask one of the local photographers to cover it and maybe see if they will give you a few bucks for the referral. It seems like a no brainer to make money. Staying home and sitting around watching the 2012 Olympics doesn't pay the bills, unless of course you have another job that does pay the bills and photography is something fun to do.

[Hector Javkin]

<blockquote>

<p>but after having a face to face meeting it is difficult for me to say no as long as they are not complete . . .</p>

</blockquote>

<p>For many clients, you can just show them this thread. They'll go away. I'm sure you didn't realize it (or at least hope you didn't) but you're using a word that has for decades now been avoided as demeaning to persons with Down's syndrome. Anyone who has a child with Down's syndrome in their family, or knows someone who does, or even who, like me, has worked on aids for persons with disabilities, is likely to end the meeting and look for a different photographer.</p>

[dave_wilson1]

Ouch...

[laronge photographie coutu]

<p>What Dave Wilson said.</p>

[thibaud_guerin_williams]

Hector, I meant no offense with my word choice. I have only ever seen and heard that word used in the context of calling someone incompetent. Sorry, it was a poor choice of words. And I don't mean to give the impression that I'm elitist in any way. Its just you hear enough advice on the net about being choosy with customers...and part of me wants to see to what extent others do that? To me, it seems easier just to go with couples who are reasonable for the most part and only blog/portfolio the ones that fit your tastes so to speak.

 

One example is church weddings, most people get married in churches, so it would be stupid to turn down weddings in churches. Personally, i hate editing the church segments because of the crappy lighting. And I am dissatisfied with the results at the end of it. No one has complained, but it just isn't what id like it to be. I know a photographer who turns away weddings in churches sometimes for that reason. I just wanted to know if any of you went to that extent, or knew anyone that did for "good" reasons. Like I said it seems intelligible to refuse church weddings, but the more I thought about many of the photographers I like hardly ever put church weddings in their portfolios. This is not an issue about churches specifically, but it was an example I thought others could relate to.

[green_photog]

<p>Thibaud, I would like to do only the best and most perfect wedding too. But as soon as one says I don't do church wedding, one's open oneself up for other weddings they won't do as well (like small dark restaurant weddings or same sex weddings). And pretty soon, there aren't a whole lot of weddings for that person to do anymore.</p>

<p>I have only turned away a few clients and here are the reasons why:<br /> 1. A bride wanted to take pictures at a parking lot and though I could just photoshop the background into a beach or something. In fact, her idea was that I could photoshop anything including changing her dress into something else.</p>

<p>2. A bride who wasn't sure of the wedding day, wedding place or what she wanted to do for that day. After an hour long consultation, she still wasn't sure about anything about her wedding, I turned her down when 3 days later she was sure she wanted to book me.</p>

<p>3. A bride who brough her sister to the meeting who was a photography student. And the sister poked me about all thing wedding photography related and asked if she could shadow me on that day.</p>

<p> </p>

[katrin_d.]

<p>RE: Why would anyone refuse to do a wedding? If you are already booked ask one of the local photographers to cover it and maybe see if they will give you a few bucks for the referral. It seems like a no brainer to make money. Staying home and sitting around watching the 2012 Olympics doesn't pay the bills<br>

<br />Easy enough to answer. I don't photograph weddings at the local Elk's Club [been there, done that]. I'd really rather sit at home and mow the lawn or something similar. I'm not a body with a camera. If my heart isn't into it, I am not going to do it. It's not about taking any "gig" that comes my way, it's about having fun doing what I love doing and attracting the right clients...which I am incredibly stoked with. My website/portfolio weeds out those candidates that aren't "my" clients. Otherwise, I might as well have kept my corporate job. </p>

[thibaud_guerin_williams]

I'm pretty much getting the answers that I was expecting, that not that many photos are all that choosy. again, I'm not trying to come across as someone who off the bat without a tremendous amount of experience wants to turn away business. I just wanted to see how you all felt about the idea.

 

Katrin, I think we are all pretty much saying the same thing. I think getting "perfect" weddings is more f a matter of pricing higher so that you get those clients who have the awesome location weddings.

[savagesax]

I'm actually in shock, stunned, find this inconceivable, unthinkable, the list of words are endless, from what Mr. Williams has said.

 

While waiting for that perfect wedding couple kindly ask your competitors if they would like to photograph all of your weddings except that one perfect wedding you are waiting for. Also ask them if they wouldn't mind putting you out of business. Be sure to give out your competitors cards and their phone numbers at bridal shows, places like that.

 

I don't understand, but good luck and be sure to post some of those images for us to see on this wedding site.

 

I'm not trying to be mean at all, but I am a bit frustrated to say the least.

[thibaud_guerin_williams]

Bob, as I have said a couple times now I am not trying to wait for that perfect couple and turn down all others. I was simply asking about how other photographers would politely decline clients they did not feel comfortable working with, and I feel that a few of us reached the consensus that it was ridiculous to turn away perfectly good clients just because they did not fit the bill of the perfect couple. I also sited that i know a photographer that doesn't like to shoot in churches and has turned a few weddings down for that reason, supposedly...to which i said seemed "unintelligible." if that confused you, I'm am sorry. But i will not amend the fact that i do not think it is, in some cases (like a couple that seems difficult, unorganized, TUXEDO SHIRTS) understandable if one were to turn down customers. If you feel that it is necessary to work for every customer that contacts you until you are booked up, then good for you. I will say it again, do not think that i am a new guy who already wants to turn away customers, because that was not what i intended. I was simply curious as to how and why other photographers have said no to past clients.

[Hector Javkin]

<p>I kind of thought you didn't know that it's a nasty word. I appreciate your recognizing the error. And I fully understand feeling uncomfortable with some clients and deciding that you don't need the money that much.</p>

[thibaud_guerin_williams]

Re my last post: that should say "I do think it is...understandable..."

[thibaud_guerin_williams]

Hector, sorry again. Thank you for being gracious about it, and thank you for understanding that part of the point of running your business, especially in this industry, is to maintain a bit of your integrity. If I needed the money so badly as to work with clients I know I will hate to work with...well then I might as well do a job that I hate and not have to deal with the stress of running my own business.

[thibaud_guerin_williams]

<p>good lord...all my typos. I need to stop typing online with my phone...</p>

[savagesax]

Well we are all different I guess. Tux t-shirts are kind of fun. Beach weddings are also quite fun because the attire is pretty casual. I've photographed all sorts of weird weddings including a triple X movie star wedding, most people didn't have cloths on after the ceremony. Now that was strange, 2 renaissance weddings in which I dressed for this era.

 

A lot of these weddings you need to play the part.

 

I guess we have a different point of view here. I look at photography as an art, not a job. This includes all forms of photography, not just weddings. There's fun and creativity with all types of

weddings. Perhaps simply try to fit in by asking the couple what the dress code is for their wedding. I'll photograph at the beach wearing the 1950's Elvis wedding theme if asked to. However I won't take the cloths off at the receptions for x rated weddings!

 

To fully answer your question I don't remember ever turning down a wedding with the exception of an attorney. He wanted to write up his own wedding contract and discard mine. I was rude, this never happens to me, and told him to get out of the studio with an angered voice. Since he was rude I switched from an artist to an ass.

 

If interested, there is a post about a client/attorney freaking out a poor photographer. It's a fairly new post so check it out.

 

Since you are in the wedding business have fun and enjoy the unusual. I'll take on any wedding thats different as well as the formal black tie events. Hope this helps you look at weddings in a different artistic way. Good luck with your business and I hope all of the people that posted so far will change your thinking process. As I said before your competition will be happy to shoot T-shirt tux weddings.

[markonestudios]

<p>I can't help but feel this thread starts off with a healthy dose of egoism. For someone trying to build a portfolio, the OP sounds awfully ermmm...picky.<br>

<br /> A very large and critical part of wedding photography is knowing or at least <em>learning how</em> to deal with people from all walks of life, all types of personality and temperament. I deal with demanding clients all the time. For me I view it like this: if I can please a very demanding client, it likely means my work is of a higher standard. I wouldn't enjoy just dealing with "Yes men." And once in a while, it is good to deal with a difficult client, just to see how you will react to them and how the shoot will turn out despite the pressure. </p>

<p>Unless there is a fundamental clash of personalities that may affect your service delivery on the day, I'd say suck it up and shoot. When you've built a sufficient reputation and strong portfolio and have started making a decent income from it, then you can be a bit more selective. But at the start of our journey? I would say that is ill-advised.</p>

 

[thibaud_guerin_williams]

Mark, the personality issues I am suggesting are in line with the critical differences you speak of. Merely wanting alot of shots or alot out of me is not necessarily a problem. In fact I agree that the challenge is actually fun. But, demanding is not the same thing as difficult in my eyes. Clients who are unnecessarily difficult because they either don't know what they want or are intentionally uncooperative go down in my book as difficult....a couple that loves your work and believes in you and would like you to photograph a wedding party of 30plus people or get plenty of photos of the reclusive father, that's a challenge, and I am willing to accept it.

 

 

I have tried to distill this idea that I am egotistically selective. Again, I only wanted to know how you all say no, and for what reasons, because undoubtedly you all have at some point. And while people like Bob way see that the art aspect of this job involves shooting everyone for the sake of variety and the challenge, I instead see that part of the art of this job is knowing that not every subject is best suited to me for the reasons noted above.

[green_photog]

<p>Thibaud, you can state that the meeting is merely a chance to see if we are a good fit. I would never say no to the client in a face to face meeting.</p>

<p>However, the better mindset is to assume you can work with everybody except the very difficult ones, instead of I will only work with the ones I can work with. Most people, myself included, think that we can read people accurately. But we don't. I cannot tell you how many times when I didn't feel particularly excited about going into a wedding and that wedding turned out to be a gem. The reverse happened to me often too.</p>

<p>So now I go into every wedding level headed and treat it as a job without getting too emotionally attached to the wedding or clients. </p>

[thibaud_guerin_williams]

<p>I would never say no to a customer face to face either. You can get referrals from a tactful "rejection," but I would be surprised if anyone said anything good about a photographer that would tell the customer no to their face. After all I think you would need a little more interaction with a customer a couple different mediums like email, an in person consultation, and phone calls to really get a feel for how a client is to work with. But of course they will be completely different on the day of.</p>

<p>The last wedding I shot, the bride seemed completely unimpressed, had no questions for me, answered questions in one word responses, and then at the end of the meeting whipped out a big pile of cash for me after I specifically told her I do not take cash...but the wedding was fun and once I send it off to her I will be submitting it to a few blogs.</p>

[fuccisphotos]

<p>Thibaud, I just had a nice response written on my iPad and then safari crashed, so if this isn't as eloquent, sorry.</p>

<p>So first off, make sure your website reflects the type of client you want to attract. If you want super luxe weddings, make it look luxe. If I have your website right, which I'll abbreviate as p-p.com, I don't get luxe from it. You should have an about part, and in it describe what you love to photograph. If you stated you love photographing all the pomp and circumstance of elegant weddings, I doubt the client with the tuxedo shirts would have contacted you for a meeting. Keep the audience you want to attract in mind. </p>

<p>That being said, I don't think turning down a wedding because they are wearing tuxedo shirts is reason enough when building a portfolio. You can still get great portfolio worthy shots without showing off the tuxedo shirts. Head shots, ring shots, flowers, etc. A photographer worth their salt can make any wedding, even a wedding that seems blah to you, look amazing. I started out shooting weddings in basements and gyms, and am now shooting in 5 star hotels. But some of those shots I took in those initial weddings are still in my portfolio. You may ask yourself HOW?! Well, they were shots of their rings, their flowers, first dance shots with very shallow depth of field, and I brought the couples outside (even though in one there was snow on the ground!). Remember, you are not limited to the surroundings you are presented with many times. Almost always I shoot the shoes, rings, and dress outside of the room where people are getting ready, even if I'm in a 5-star hotel room. The other thing to remember is the setting may be blah to you, but it certainly isn't to the client, it is THEIR WEDDING DAY! If you can't find some way to photograph things beautifully, no matter what the background, I would say you probably shouldn't get into wedding photography. The emotion and the little details are what the day is all about, not crazy expensive venues.</p>

<p>Lastly, I think you should reconsider your ideas about only blogging some of your weddings. I say blog 'em all, or don't blog at all. If you are selective about what to blog on the basis of how nice the venue is or how "pretty" the bride is, then you are setting yourself up for bad reviews and clients with hurt feelings. What you choose to blog about from the wedding is up to you. You should only show what you want to shoot on your blog. So if you don't want to show tuxedo shirts, then don't feature that. But no matter what, do show at least one shot of the couple. You could do it as a headshot (which doesn't have to show the shirts), or as a silhouette shot, or holding hands, or shot of hands with rings on. </p>

<p>I don't think that a couple seeming disorganized is a reason not to book them. You are often the first or second vendor they are booking, so many details are still up in the air. A reason why I would question booking a couple is if they are looking for someone with a vastly different shooting style than my own or looking for different things than I provide, or if our personalities just REALLY don't mesh. Then I have no problem saying to them that I don't think I am a good match for them, and then suggest the names of other photographers that I know do match the style they are looking for. I don't think just raising your prices is a good idea because if you post your prices on your site like I do, then they can see that you upcharged them. And if they still go with you, then you now have a client you didn't want in the first place, and they will likely be expecting even more from you since they are paying even more.<br>

Last if you don't like shooting in dark environments like churches, get faster lenses, and practice, practice, practice. <br>

Hope this helps.</p>