How Wedding Photographers Market Their Business Today

[personalphotos]

<p>I suggest she take a deep breath and wait on the email. Personally, I'm not comfortable being involved "behind the scenes" in another photographers business. The package seems very fair, Album prices can vary but any good quality album will be similar in price from one photographer to another. If she's happy with who she chose, she should relax. Nothing wrong with asking a few extra questions but she shouldn't doubt her choice because we were discussing marketing ideas.</p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>Ok, now <em><strong>I need some help!</strong></em> I <strong><em>want to get your thoughts on all of this</em></strong>. Please <em><strong>post back your feedback</strong></em>. Let me know <strong><em>how things go from your perspective.</em></strong> I mean marketing is not black and white, so little variables change everything, so I know everyone has different experiences, let's hear some!</p>

</blockquote>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>OK, Here's the pricing package for our wedding shoot.<strong><em> I've been talking to my fiance about this stuff and she's kind of freaking out now</em></strong>. She was starting to doubt if she really wants to use this person, and now <em><strong>with all these questions I've been asking her from you guys,</strong> </em>she's getting really nervous. She's drafting an email now to the photographer, <strong><em>what should she be asking</em></strong>? <strong><em>I appreciate the help guys!</em> </strong></p>

</blockquote>

<p><strong></strong> </p>

<p>Are these two different questions - or was it the same, all along?</p>

<p>WW<br>

<strong></strong></p>

<p> </p>

[nate_delucca]

<p>Ok, a couple of responses to what's been said earlier today.</p>

<p>First, although it pains me to write this, here was my fiance's comment when I asked if she was going to ask if our photographer carried insurance (even after I educated her briefly about it).</p>

<p>"No normal person would think to ask those things. I never even heard of photography insurance."</p>

<p>I'm wondering if there shouldn't be more "fear marketing" being done with wedding photography. I mean, it happens in a lot of niches, where the price drops but there's no worry that quality or anything else drops. Sometimes it takes a little fear to get someone realizing what they are actually missing for the price difference. </p>

<p>From a marketing perspective you'll have two headlines like, "5 things that lead to a great wedding photographer experience" and "5 things that a photographer will do to ruin your wedding" and have the latter overwhelmingly get the majority of views. I mean any bride just worried about price doesn't appear to be thinking that anything could go wrong if she used the cheapest option out there. Maybe it doesn't change a thing, but I'd be interested in seeing if anything changed in a bride's mind if they had some fear struck in them. Could be as simple as emailing out a little video or guide that listed what happens if you don't ask this question or if your photographer doesn't have insurance, or a key moment is missed because the photographer wasn't experienced enough to catch it. Chances are it wouldn't change a thing, but still would be interesting. </p>

<p>(Btw, Peter, she has relaxed now, and is just clarifying a few things now via email with the photographer. She saw that printing rights were included on the photographer's website, so definitely not thinking about dropping her, just wants to make sure she's not missing out on anything she thought was automatically included)</p>

<p>The other thing I wanted to touch on by Marc, was "It should be noted that getting a lot of hits on a website is no indicator of anything ... " While this is 100% true, the potential is so much greater for business if you have traffic like that, if you are the first person that's contacted. There's a concept that's put to practice by experience marketers that simply is, get paid when your visitor comes to your site, and get paid when they leave. This pretty much means that you want to be positioned to make money regardless of what the customer chooses to do. Buy from my site, great, I get paid. Not interested in what I have to offer, great, here are my biggest competitors. I'll make it really easy for you to go check them out, and I really hope you buy, because I make a profit off of it as well, and I already know you didn't want what I had to offer.</p>

<p>With all these craigslist shooters and amateur photographers, has anyone ever thought of reaching out to them and contracting work to them? I know it sounds crazy and you never want to lose business, but what if you took some of the young ones, the ones that don't quite know the industry, and say I'll shuffle you work and provide some professional guidance in return for a cut of your profits. It's kind of win-win, as they will be learning from you, and you'll be making money you wouldn't normally have seen anyway. </p>

<p>Even if they are really good at it and decide to step it up and go on their own, chances are they move out of the cheap photographer bracket, into the market that makes it tough for them to survive anyway. While you just find the next newbie coming up to profit off of. If you could perfect this technique, you could have a team of the craigslist shooters and uncle bobs that would be earning you money while you're out shooting your own weddings. </p>

<p>This way, you'll never be undercut. The lowest market is the one that's gaining the most steam right now, and you'll pretty much own it (other then a friend shooting for free). Again, while it's never good to lose money and paid gigs, if someone wanted the work for less than half price of what you were offering, wouldn't it be a good idea to say, I have this person as an option in that price range. Or even better, I have 5 people who can work for that price (which will almost guarantee you could take any gig), which one works for you. Book the gig yourself and contract the gig out, make a couple hundred off of it for not working at all. Tell the youngster you have a gig for them, and hook them up with your knowledge and experience, than, go over the shots afterwards as a follow up and teach them. If they want out and want to do it on their own, great, find the next youngster coming along on craigslist.</p>

<p>It's being more of a broker than a photographer, but this just may be the way things are evolving. It definitely seems like craigslist shooters are here to stay, and it sounds like from your responses that they are getting gigs and becoming a substantial part of the market. <strong>Ask yourselves how you can profit off of it instead of fighting it</strong>. I know the whole thing is frustrating and you probably hate acknowledging that a craigslist shooter can possibly do what you do, but it's a matter of who can evolve. They want something that you have, which is experience and expertise in the field, especially if you can give them gigs. </p>

<p>If you're smooth, you could even work it into a paid mentorship program. </p>

<p>Thoughts anyone? </p>

<p> </p>

[nathansanborn]

<p>I'm not a marketer, or a wedding photographer (although I have Uncle Bobed 4 weddings, it was for very close friends and family working on tiny budgets, sometimes I got paid a small amount, usually done as a gift).... But I do sell for a living.</p>

<p>When someone asks for your rates.... DO NOT GIVE A NUMBER AND WAIT FOR A RESPONSE!</p>

<p>Bride: What are your rates?<br>

Photographer: $2500.<br>

Bride: Thanks.</p>

<p>Not how I sell, and likely a waste of both the seller and the brides time. She (or he, you shouldn't assume anything about your customer) is calling or emailing you because they plan on paying a photographer money to take pictures, and you just sent them away.</p>

<p>Bride: What are your rates?<br>

Photographer: That depends on what you're looking for, do you mind if I ask you a few questions so we can determine the right package for you? When are you planning to get married? Where are you getting married at? How many guests will be there? How long is the event scheduled to last? What types of photos are you looking to get? Have you looked at my website? How did you hear about me? What sort of questions do you have for me?</p>

<p>And when you do quote... ASK FOR THE BUSINESS!</p>

<p>Photographer: Sounds like the package for your wedding would be $2500. Would you like me to pencil you in for that date?</p>

<p>If you have done a good job creating trust and fully understanding her situation, you may have been talking to the bride for a fair amount of time, and she may not want to spend another 2 hours talking to the next 5 people on the list and book the date. For sure you made the next photographers short exchange look unprofessional.</p>

<p>Create a dialogue with your client and they will feel more comfortable doing business with you. They may be impressed with your willingness to completely understand their unique circumstances (even if to you they are quite ordinary) to the point that you become more valueable than the competition.</p>

<p>I know, I know, "but Nathan, once I tell them the price, they tell me it's too high!" Something I learned from a decade of selling, the price is always too high.</p>

<p>Bride: That's too much money.<br>

Photographer: Compared to what?<br>

Or the classic: What were you looking to spend?</p>

<p>If low price is the only thing a client is looking for, let them go to uncle Bob. They may be difficult to satisfy, or worse, cancel the date as soon as they find someone cheaper. Realize that the questions regarding price objections should be inquisitive not challenging. The buyer decides what a product or service is worth, you can only guide them by finding out what is valueable to them and presenting your product (service) in a way complimentary to their needs and wants.</p>

<p>(Actual cash value of above message $.02)</p>

<p>Nathan</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Sorry. Sounds like too much work. If I cannot control things (and you cannot control Craigslist/newcomer photographers--the person or the quality of work), I'm not interested. I wouldn't think newcomers would be interested either. As far as I can tell, they teach themselves by talking with each other via social media, and have stopped trying to get more experienced photographers to give up some of their knowledge and experience.</p>

<p>Whenever newcomers ask for mentorship these days, it is always as second shooter work (not starting from the ground up), and they always come right out and say that they want the work so they can further their career, totally unaware how that sounds to a prospective mentor (as in, what's in it for the mentor?). I personally don't want any association with my name and reputation to be any less than excellent, and you are taking a risk with every shoot. Not worth it to me for the small sum that might be realized off a shoot.</p>

<p>I've done my share of mentoring. Thankfully, with photographers who worked hard and appreciated what they were getting, so I don't say the above with bitterness at all.</p>

[nate_delucca]

<p>WV - unrelated. I really didn't think anything I asked here would alter anything in my personal situation, and really it didn't change anything. Fire's over now. </p>

<p>Nadine, what about someone who operates as a professional, but at a cheaper price point? The point would be to keep the work in your sphere of association, but if said person is just an acquaintance and not necessarily a partner it may be less of a risk to your reputation. The idea is to control where the money goes, because it is going somewhere, and profit off of it. </p>

[picturesque]

<p>Someone who operates as a professional is not someone who is a Craigslist/newcomer. Being a professional implies having at least a moderate level of experience--shooting 5 or 6 weddings as primary, hopefully after second shooting and assisting. Or is that what you mean by 'someone who operates as a professional'?</p>

<p>I am not being snobby either, because I believe it is possible for a newcomer to start shooting weddings as primary, and do an excellent job, without ever having assisted or doing any second shooting. Possible, but rare.</p>

<p>I pass along leads now, to photographers I know are good. Most of them have been shooting for years. I'd pass a lead to a newer photographer, if he or she is good. I'd do so without expecting any kind of cut. I don't like to muddy the waters. If that person did a good job, they deserve every penny they make, regardless of price point.</p>

[nate_delucca]

<p>I was referring to someone like this...</p>

<p>I just pulled this off of craigslist (it was the 4th option (out of over 50 for today alone) when I searched for "Wedding Photographer") I'll refrain from putting the person's name in case you are on this forum, this is just for discussion purposes.</p>

 

<h2>Wedding Photography - $995</h2>

Includes... All day coverage package with 2 photographers (one is related to the first shooter) & edited photos on DVD.

 

It appears from the person's website that they've shot at least 20 weddings. That's someone I consider a professional shooter operating at a lower price point.

 

 

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>"WV - unrelated. I really didn't think anything I asked here would alter anything in my personal situation, and really it didn't change anything. Fire's over now."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>“WV” - assumed that's a typo.<br>

OK, thanks for answering.<br>

The original intent has been clarified – thanks for that: I was not interested specifically in your fire - but I am glad that it is over.</p>

<p>Interesting discussion - I've been riveted, since the outset.</p>

<p>WW</p>

 

[picturesque]

<p>OK, I admit I haven't perused Craigslist in a while, so I'm a bit surprised. However, I'd have to see that photographer's work, and probably talk to that person, to make any kind of determination whether I'd call that person a professional or not.</p>

<p>I do know that most professionals realize that one cannot make ends meet shooting <strong>all day</strong> with two shooters and doing all the file processing for $995. The fact that the second shooter is related to the first (probably the wife) helps, but isn't enough. Perhaps this person already has a full time job and regards this kind of work as good for pocket money.</p>

<p>In any case, as stated above, I would not consider taking a cut from any leads given out. I just don't regard this way of 'making money' anything I'd want associated with me, my business or my reputation.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>By the way, Marc, I was also talking about the 'why' people don't call back. As said above, your given reason is something I agree with, but more than that, IMHO, the reason people don't call back (after deciding you are too expensive, or whatever) is because they plain don't have manners.</p>

<p>Perhaps it is the impersonal nature of communications these days. While one can connect so easily via social media or e-mail, you don't have to look a person in the eyes anymore, or even engage in verbal communication. It is just easier to disengage by not bothering to respond.</p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>“what about someone who operates as a professional, but at a cheaper price point?” (Nate)</p>

<p>“I believe it is possible for a newcomer to start shooting weddings as primary, and do an excellent job, without ever having assisted or doing any second shooting. Possible, but rare.” (Nadine)</p>

<p>“[Example from Craigslit] . . . That's someone I consider a professional shooter operating at a lower price point.” (Nate)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Being “professional”, extends well beyond doing the good job even under the pressure of time, but yet when all is going reasonably swimmingly.<br>

I wonder how many of the $995’ers would sit for hours, fixing Moire, if need be - just as one example.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>“The idea is to control where the money goes, because it is going somewhere, and profit off of it.” (Nate)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I do not believe that profiting “off of” anyone or anything on the premise that the money is going “somewhere”, is an appropraite business model, to be applied universally.</p>

<p>If one’s business premise is High Quality Product and (perhaps moreover) Exceptional Service, then all Associations, are integral and should be most closely scrutinized.</p>

<p>My tuppence.</p>

<p>WW </p>

<p> </p>

[nate_delucca]

<blockquote>

<p>"I do not believe that profiting “off of” anyone or anything on the premise that the money is going “somewhere”, is an appropraite business model, to be applied universally." - WW</p>

</blockquote>

<p>William, I hate to break it to you, but this is the current way business being done on the internet. It's called affiliate sales, and it represents billions (yes, billions with a B) of dollars of sales every year. It's pointing people towards a solution. What is surprising to me is that it hasn't reached the photography niche to a strong degree. But I assure you, it is the way things are being done right now online. </p>

<p>It's reached the Wedding band niche. I know because I went to "gig masters" to find a band. There you find a list of all the bands in the area, and they write back to let you know who's available, essentially brokering a deal with you. After being contacted by individual band managers, most band managers follow up with me via email and some phone calls, and let me know that if this band doesn't exactly fit my wants, needs and desires, let me know why and he or she will find one that does. Again, it's the concept of being a broker, and it's the philosophy of I might not be the right answer for you, but let me point you towards the person/product that is. </p>

<p>I agree with...</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"then all Associations, are integral and should be most closely scrutinized." </p>

</blockquote>

<p>which is why it important to be associated with the right people. Your reputation will definitely be judged based on who you refer. But out of each bride that uses a photographer, most will find the perfect one for them. And that's what really matters, as far as reputation, associating yourself with someone that the customer finds perfect for her. If you know a photographer doesn't have as good of an eye as you, isn't as good editing and touching up the photos, etc, but comes in at a price point that the bride wants (who you get the sense wont know the difference anyway and just cares about price), as long as you disclaim the differences to the bride so she knows what she's walking into, that's not a negative association. That's being a good consultant. </p>

<p>Look at it from a 'conceptional selling' approach for a second. This applies anytime you have a person looking for any product or service. It's a great method for getting in touch with your customer. I'll apply it here to wedding photography. </p>

<p>First ask questions to understand where the customer is coming from. In this case, what a person's knows already, and what her wants and needs are for a photographer (something most do right now). Next, identify possible photographer options for that person. Not specific names of people, but types of photographers. What can they expect from a craigslist photographer, a friend photographer, a new photographer, a high end photographer, an experienced middle price photographer. Don't try to sell her anything, and don't pretend that the lowly craigslist and amateur photographers don't exist! Be accurate and she'll respect you for it.</p>

<p>Let her know price averages, what they will get for their dollar, and if they could save money by not having things like a second shooter. This step is important to show that there are no smoke and mirrors, it's really clear that the choices she makes relates to this kind of end product. Once all the paths are understood, the third step is to have her decide on the path that's right for her, even if it isn't you. If you walk someone through this process and feel you've accurately guided her to a decision that is the best for her, it's only fair to be compensated for it. </p>

<p>Nadine, it's not necessarily as much "taking a cut" as it is consulting the customer to the correct choice for them when you do things this way. When you only represent one choice or option, you have no choice but to sell yourself as the only and best option for her. Anything else is direct competition. But when you open up and embrace that any decision a bride makes is a right decision for her (assuming she likes the end product), then you can open yourself up to compensating yourself for helping with this. </p>

<p>I think most photographers here feel like bride's make a lot of wrong choices. But a lot of bride's feel they make the perfect choice (at the time anyway), why not help them with this?</p>

<p>And for the comment</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"I wonder how many of the $995’ers would sit for hours, fixing Moire, if need be - just as one example."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>how many bride's know what that is, and are making decisions based on that? It isn't a selling point if the customer doesn't see enough value in it to affect their decision making process. And when it's all said and done, that's just another amateur with a gig. Maybe the bridge regrets it later, but amateur has long spent that money. </p>

<p>Another thing I'm wondering is how many brides get back their photos and say, "I wish I had used a better photographer" to the point where they warn or tell others? And how many just accept whatever get back as being fine, or it was what it was. I imagine it's the latter, and it's why wedding photography is trending cheaper and cheaper, because so many were able to use average photographers and be ok with the results. </p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>"I do know that most professionals realize that one cannot make ends meet shooting <strong>all day</strong> with two shooters and doing all the file processing for $995." - Nadine</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Unfortunately wedding photography today features people trying to make ends meet and people who don't. You literally have to compete against an army of people who don't need to survive off of the income, but just enjoy the extra few bucks they make off of it. It really changes the industry when this happens. A similar thing happened with the music composition industry. Let me share an example.</p>

<p>At my old company, we had a music composition department that offered custom music for tv and commercials that cost thousands of dollars per track (and deals for music packages that I imagine ran up into the 250k range). It was a solid industry. Then technology shifted. Suddenly any high school kid sitting in his basement could use cheap, but near professional samples (meaning no live musicians) and programs and throw tracks together that will get him reasonably close to what could be done in a music studio. </p>

<p>I could sit here and tell you all the ways that our music studio did things better and more professional, but chances are to the average producer looking for music for their tv show or commercial, all they see is the price tag compared to what they think is a relatively good track. What happened was the whole industry had to shift and adapt it's business model to figure out how to compete with this new threat. Now instead of turning up it's nose at the kid in his basement making music, the company would buy tunes off of these kids and remix and remaster them, and use them to grow it's own library so that producers still come to them for tracks, instead of the young kids. And while it still does sit on shaky ground as a long term business, it's found a way to benefit off of the change. </p>

<p>This happens all the time. As nice as it would be to have a secure, unchanging business, in today's world it doesn't exist. Changes are coming, the question is what are they and how do you adapt to benefit from them?</p>

<p> </p>

[William Michael]

<p>Nate, you haven’t “broken anything to me”: and therefore you should not “hate” so to do.<br>

I do understand this is a particular a turn of phrase and also the meaning of it and I assume it was used as such and to also convey that meaning.<br>

In so far as it was used, I also disagree with the positioning of it, as an adjunct, to repudiate the position which I put.</p>

<p>I appreciate the passion, with which you write, truly I do.<br>

As I mentioned, I have been riveted by this topic, since your first post.<br>

I appreciate and understand the facts of business as done via the internet, which you have outlined, truly I do.</p>

<p>But all that does not change my opinion which is encapsulated in the two sentences, the meaning of which is contained by reading the two, in concert:<br>

<em>“I do not believe that profiting “off of” anyone or anything on the premise that the money is going “somewhere”, is an appropriate business model, to be applied universally.</em><br>

<em>If one’s business premise is High Quality Product and (perhaps moreover) Exceptional Service, then all Associations, are integral and should be most closely scrutinized.”</em></p>

<p>I understand that you’ve separated the two sentences: and I clearly understand how you have addressed <em>“</em><em>then all Associations, are integral and should be most closely scrutinized”.</em></p>

<p>However, I am open to the possibility that the meaning might have been missed entirely and maybe it will be more easily seen if re-written:</p>

<p>I do not believe that just because particular monies are travelling down any particular chute, that profiting “off of” anyone or anything, on the premise that any particular monies are going “somewhere”, is an appropriate business model which then should be applied universally.<br>

If one’s business premise is High Quality Product and (perhaps moreover) Exceptional Service, then ALL Associations are integral and should be most closely scrutinized.</p>

<p>WW</p>

[andrew_andrews1]

<p>Hi Nate,<br>

Thanks for posting you experiences which are useful and contain some good tips, a few of points based on my experience:<br>

Google Places - yes of course this should be done, but it is subject to the same need for optimisation as general web based searches<br>

Don't waste your money on paid ads? - this is bad advice - I use adwords and track the conversions to bookings, I know this method delivers a return on investment<br>

95% of people start their search in Google - I'd say 50% of my business comes from recommendations, another 20% from print ads, 20% from recommendations, and 10% from Google.<br>

Wordpress is a good web CRM, but not the only one.</p>

 

[fotografz]

<p><strong>Nadine:</strong> You're probably right ... it's just plain old being rude.</p>

<p><strong>Nathan S.,</strong> your method is exactly how I sell ... involve the prospect by asking questions and getting specifics, then fit what I do to their needs and ask for their business. Used to work every time. Now it doesn't. They hear the price and you never hear back from them at all. I know I am NOT over-priced, and I also know I connect with my prospects ... I have a premium listing on The Wedding Wire/Martha Steward Weddings where clients rate you on a number of criteria and I have 22 perfect scores ... winning their Bride's Choice Award for 4 years in a row.</p>

<p><strong>My latest USP (Unique Selling Proposition)</strong> is a number of weddings set to music that show a complete wedding from getting ready to the reception endings, BUT each demonstrates a dramatically different personality that is derived from the personality of the clients and their friends and family. While weddings tend to be similar in flow, it is the individuals that provide the marked difference in a humanistically interesting story of a wedding day. Not only do I treat myself as a brand, I treat the client as one also. That approach is starting to bear fruit ... at least I am able to continue a dialog rather than never hearing back at all. </p>

<p><strong>The second selling aspect is that of consistent quality.</strong> In a mentor session with a photographer I respect, and reviewing my work for the past 2 years, he observed that where most wedding shooters are capable of getting a few good shots each wedding, I seem to be nailing 8 or 9 out of ten very good or great shots consistently wedding-to-wedding ... so a whole wedding is interesting artistically and humanistically, not just part of it. Of course, that is subjective, and reactions may vary by client tastes, but it isn't an accident, it is a combination of native talent that is disciplined by experience and ... <em>caring enough to send your very best</em> (to steal an ad phrase).</p>

<p><strong>Nate,</strong> most people do weddings out of love for photography ... not only is it a business, it is a passion outlet. Were it not, there would be considerably less people doing it. Brokering is an additional step away from the passion part. Actually dealing with prospects, handling current clients and managing the business aspects represents a major commitment in time and effort that has to be built into the over-all pricing structure ... or it will also eventually contribute to a doomed business model.</p>

<p>Doing that part to help sell someone else's business would be very difficult to profit from because of the current price shopping environment and the fact that you could spend a good deal of time directing a client to another shooter to no avail ... since they probably already have a list of photographers they are interested in that are also viable prospects.</p>

<p>This business is heavily predicated on individual talent and chemistry. In effect the Brokerage notion is already being practiced by the "studio system" ... where a studio has a stable of approved freelance shooters and supposedly matches talent to need ... a good theory that in practice doesn't work very well anymore. </p>

<p>Most individual wedding photographers are "eating" these hidden costs of doing business ... either because they're <em>pocket change</em> shooters that don't depend on weddings for their living, or they are practicing an eventual demise of their business over time. Add to declining over-all average pricing the fact that every fixed cost associated with wedding deliverables is accelerating ... from cameras, lenses and speed-lights, to Albums and print costs ... the pressure to profit is getting very difficult.</p>

<p><strong>What many individual photographers really need is a rain maker.</strong></p>

<p><strong>Artistic talent and very savvy and native acute business ability is a somewhat rare combination.</strong> My former partner moved to Florida and was lucky enough to hook up with a person that had limited experience in photography, BUT had all the right skills and guts required to make business happen like crazy. Now he is relieved of many business responsibilities, shoots for a bit less than he did, but almost all of his time is now shooting and creating art. Frankly, if I could find the same, I do it in a New York heart beat. </p>

<p> </p>

[personalphotos]

<p>Actually we've forgotten that this is already being done with a broad network that has had it's problems. Bella. This company has had serious financial issues and undergone restructuring at least once. I suspect as price/profit pressure continues, they will find it hard to sustain. </p>

[nate_delucca]

<blockquote>

<p>I do not believe that just because particular monies are traveling down any particular chute, that profiting “off of” anyone or anything, on the premise that any particular monies are going “somewhere”, is an appropriate business model which then should be applied universally.<br />If one’s business premise is High Quality Product and (perhaps moreover) Exceptional Service, then ALL Associations are integral and should be most closely scrutinized. - W.W.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br />Anyone else care to comment on this statement?</p>

<p><br /><br />Andrew, thanks for joining in. The paid ads comment was based on the one opinion I pulled from (said, in part, to stir the pot), but seemed to be backed by some of the people here. I have no doubt that it's a solid investment for you. Like most marketing, if you can master the technique, you can make it work for you.</p>

<p>Has anyone else had any luck with Adwords or any other paid ads and have an ROI they can share?</p>

<p><br />My thoughts on wordpress is that it's popular with developers and other internet marketers, which means that there is a lot of innovation going on with it that other platforms may not have or see for a while, while at the same time everyone knows it. If you launch a site and say, "I wish I had a plugin that did ___," I like wordpress's odds for having it already in existence or being able to create it very cheaply.</p>

<p>To comment on product creation really quickly... simply put, it's easier than most people think. Anything you guys are just screaming to have that you don't see in existence that would make your lives easier? Seriously, chime in.</p>

<p><br />Marc, I was glad to hear that there is in fact a USP that doesn't relate to price. For a while I was starting to think that was the only other direction one could head. I think anything that makes a bride feel just a little more special than the last person she talked to is a great USP.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>What many individual photographers really need is a rain maker. - Marc</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well, what if we flip things around. Rather than becoming a brokerage and farming off work, has anyone ever tried setting up an affiliate program, where people filter them work for a fee? And I'm not talking about studios (which I'm sure you all have tried), I'm talking people who know the internet and can maintain all of your internet responsibilities on a commission basis. I know sites like commission junction and others have programs where companies join and offer say $100 for any paying lead. Here an army of marketers can promote your studio (granted if you're concerned with reputable associations, this may not appeal to you) in any light you feel necessary.</p>

<p>Has anyone thought to try this?</p>

<p>While $100 isn't much to sacrifice to a photographer with a $2500 gig, setting up a campaign for wedding photography in a given area is an easy couple hours of work for a marketer. The marketer would undoubtedly be able to open up avenues that are too time consuming or out of the comfort level of a photographer via the internet. If that paid off with $100 several times a year to the marketer, and several more $2500 gigs for the photographer, it probably would be worth the effort on both parts. Just a thought.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>BUT had all the right skills and guts required to make business happen like crazy.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br />Marc, you left out the juiciest part, what are those "right skills and guts" required to make this happen?</p>

<p>Peter, I just checked out Bella. I can see why they've failed. Their price point is way too high for what they are offering (not enough of a perceived value by the visitor for the cost), and there isn't any unique selling position. They sacrifice personal touch for web convenience, which in wedding photography seems to be a terrible trade off.<br>

<br />This talk of unique selling position reminded me of an old marketing lesson...</p>

<p>Why people don't buy (on the internet):<br /><br />1. They don't know you, who you are, why they should listen to you or why you're any different then the next guy<br />2. They don't understand the product you're selling, what it can do for them, and why they should buy it<br />3. They don't want what you're selling more then what they have to give up to get it (cost, email address, etc)<br />4. The don't believe you</p>

<p>Clearly #3 is the main point here. Bride's aren't really seeing value in paying an extra 1 - 2k for a product they feel the can get for less. So if the price point is as low as you're willing to go, how do you increase the value? How do you take a bride who's already overbudget and convince her that you are worth paying the extra 1 - 2k for?</p>

<p>One thing I can think of is start creating a culture where bad wedding photos aren't acceptable. If anyone wants to make some money as a side project, start a website called "ugly wedding photos." Seriously, these kind of sites blow up. "Ugliest Tattoos" averaged 175k viewers a month last year. Sell ad space on your site and you can easily make an couple of thousand dollars a month on it. It'll take a little effort maintaining it, but still the opportunity is there.<br /><br />But, the main point of this is the site doesn't exist already. It does in the tattoo world. The point isn't to make fun of an individual artist, but rather create a balance where the bad is known as much as the good. It's given the good artists a platform to stand on and say, you don't want to be one of those people on that site (no, they don't actually say that out loud).</p>

<p>In the wedding photography world, there is no bad. No awareness what-so-ever that a bride can't pay the littlest amount and come home happy afterwards. No worry that if you go too cheap, you might end up regretting it. It may be just me, but I think that could be an area that can help change the culture. <br /><br /></p>

[Dave Gardner]

<p>I wonder what the Photographer would think of the Photographers commenting on his/her photography business....I guess it really does come down to character...</p>

[nate_delucca]

<p>That's a good point Dave that didn't occur to me. Tattoos you can photograph on someone and that picture belongs to the individual. Don't photographers hold certain rights to his or her photos? This would make a derogatory public display of them without permission tough without their consent. Maybe I'm mistaken though.</p>

[fotografz]

<p><strong>Nate,</strong> thanks for continuing to hang in there with us.</p>

<p><strong>RE: "flipping things around"</strong> ... there are a number of lead locator sites that offer paid leads ... some even limit the number of photographers that are sent the lead ... or if you are a premium member of the site with ad space, you get the lead earlier than non-paying members. A recent thread here, as well as on other wedding sites confirmed these do not work very well ... I've done it for 3 years now and zilch ROI in either time or money. This is the last year I will participate in any of them ... I have maintained my Wedding Wire account through this year, because it is a source of credible client endorsements for prospects ... but I have enough of those now to last the next few years.</p>

<p><strong>What a "rain maker" does is make personal contact one-on-one.</strong> I've been tracking what my former partner is doing with his surrogate sales person and frankly, I'm impressed. Almost none of their success is attributable to using the internet as a lead locator. This particular person is a woman with okay photographic talent/experience that recognized just how good my partner is, and started selling him even more than herself. People have different skills and talents, and this woman is a born sales person that jumps on any and every opportunity she stumbles across ... and I mean every single one ... she see's a family at Starbucks and she approaches them for family portrait work (which she specializes in) ... she stumps every wedding venue in the area building relationships ... she works the vendors with a vengeance, works reciprocal deals, and on and on and on ... She LOVES the challenge and feeds off it the way many of us feed off great photographs. </p>

<p><strong>Now, it is easy to say this is what every wedding shooter should be doing</strong> ... except it discounts the fact that while some are good at sales, many are not. I've work with and managed thousands of creative people as an advertising executive, and most can hardly remember the name of someone they were just introduced to, where a sales oriented person can remember everyone by name they met at a cocktail party a week ago : -) Another aspect is that agents or sales oriented people are slow to discount or buckle when competitively challenged, and don't have the inherent insecurity that many artistic types suffer from ... it's just business to them, not personal rejection or something to that effect. It is what is known in business as the "killer instinct" ... the will to win which drives really good sales people. </p>

<p>Artists, writers, commercial and fashion photographers, designers, illustrators, art-directors, etc, all have agents, or work for a place with a sales staff. So, I'm dead serious that I'd go with a "rain maker" if given the chance ... it's what they do ... and do as well as I do photographs. </p>

[picturesque]

<blockquote>

<p>First ask questions to understand where the customer is coming from. In this case, what a person's knows already, and what her wants and needs are for a photographer (something most do right now). Next, identify possible photographer options for that person. Not specific names of people, but types of photographers. What can they expect from a craigslist photographer, a friend photographer, a new photographer, a high end photographer, an experienced middle price photographer. Don't try to sell her anything, and don't pretend that the lowly craigslist and amateur photographers don't exist! Be accurate and she'll respect you for it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>As I said above, too much work for small returns. Plus you risk your personal reputation. Not to mention the whole procedure--taking a cut--is somewhat questionable--to me at least. I still think what you describe is 'taking a cut'.</p>

<p>William's Moire comment was not specifically about moire, because of course brides have no idea what that is, but about a $995 photographer's dedication to quality to the point that he or she would spend the necessary time (hours and hours) fixing up files so that quality is maintained. Because one normally can't make ends meet with that price point already, one would not be inclined to spend that time.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Another thing I'm wondering is how many brides get back their photos and say, "I wish I had used a better photographer" to the point where they warn or tell others? And how many just accept whatever get back as being fine, or it was what it was. I imagine it's the latter, and it's why wedding photography is trending cheaper and cheaper, because so many were able to use average photographers and be ok with the results.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I have, from time to time, read about brides who warn others about carefully choosing a wedding photographer, such as on The Knot. I'm sure there are some brides who know perfectly well that they got less than what they wanted but will settle. Others don't care--they got some wedding pictures and that's fine. Bride reactions are probably the same as other consumer reactions--they run the gamut.</p>

<p>I'm also perfectly aware that there are many photographers doing weddings for pocket money. I started out that way. I have no problem with any of them. I actually have no problem with newcomers. The market is what it is, and yes, I realize it changes. Nothing I can do about it (I will not take cuts from newcomers) except mind my own business and be creative about marketing myself. So my adaption to the market will not include taking cuts.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Well, what if we flip things around. Rather than becoming a brokerage and farming off work, has anyone ever tried setting up an affiliate program, where people filter them work for a fee? And I'm not talking about studios (which I'm sure you all have tried), I'm talking people who know the internet and can maintain all of your internet responsibilities on a commission basis. I know sites like commission junction and others have programs where companies join and offer say $100 for any paying lead. Here an army of marketers can promote your studio (granted if you're concerned with reputable associations, this may not appeal to you) in any light you feel necessary.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>In my area there is a similar program called The Short List. However, all the photographers in the program have to be similar in pricing or it wouldn't work well. There used to be another one, but I don't know what happened to it. The problem with this kind of set up is the amount of maintenance and non-shooting work that needs to be done. If a group is lucky enough to find a sales person such as Marc described, that person probably isn't interested in doing the grunt paperwork or maintaining a website. This means the fees have to be pretty high.</p>

<p>Also, group dynamics take over. Someone always ends up doing the largest share of work dedicated to keeping the group alive and someone always gets the largest amount of paying work and everyone else gets restive.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>One thing I can think of is start creating a culture where bad wedding photos aren't acceptable. If anyone wants to make some money as a side project, start a website called "ugly wedding photos."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>These sites exist. Here is one. Just google 'bad wedding photos' or similar.</p>

<p><a href="http://weddings.about.com/b/2009/10/06/worst-wedding-photographer-ever.htm">http://weddings.about.com/b/2009/10/06/worst-wedding-photographer-ever.htm</a></p>

[personalphotos]

<p>It's interesting that you should bring this up Marc. The other day I was driving to an appointment and thinking, many types of artists have agents. Actors, musicians, entertainers, designers and so on. This allows them to focus almost (not totally) on the creation or performance of their work. Here I am, driving to a brides house and knowing I'll spend at least an hour and from door to door, probably 2+ hours on this meeting. As it turned out, she and I didn't click and the following day was one of the 2 "Uncle Bob" emails I got last week. So if there were some way to have an 'agent' or rainmaker as you called it, do this for me, it could be huge.</p>

<p>Photographers at the top of the food chain out-sourse almost everything so they can concentrate on the work and time in studio or shooting. They get other people to edit photos, design albums, do the printing, deliver the finished product, take care of the money, even answer the emails and client communication. The one thing they never seem to outsource is client meetings and chasing leads. Now granted those 1% who are in this position don't often 'chase' leads, they get them coming to them. But from everything I've seen, heard and even anecdotal evidence suggests that when it comes to prospecting and meeting clients, the lead shooter always, always does this hands on. I can't see how else this could work successfully unless you are only in it for the money. Otherwise, you have no connection to the client, no idea of what they want and if you really can provide them with what they would like. The salesperson just hands you any client they can capture and you are expected to do your work based on a conversation or two that you weren't present at.</p>

<p>I have the fortunate background in that I spent 20 years in direct sales. I always did at least a few weddings a year since the early 1980's but while my kids were growing up, the sales agency thing was a more solid income. I've always owned my own business. In fact for the later part of it, I had salespeople working for me and the agency grossed over $15M/year. Anyway, I don't have a problem selling but discovered that the 'usual rules' don't apply to a bride. It's almost never black and white, emotion is often the driver and a personal connection will make of break almost any consultation. Notice how drastically different a consult is if the fiance is an 'Alpha' male and she says nothing. The meeting will be all questions of a price and technical nature, where if it's a meeting with the bride doing the talking, it's all about whether you can capture the emotions of the day. That you understand the 'look' and 'feel' of the images she wants.</p>

<p>All that being said, I just can't see how you could have an agent drive your business. They see numbers and how many deals they closed. They don't take the client's needs personally (many salespeople will take offence to this but really it's always been and always will be a numbers game. They do care about the client and tailor the sale to fit their needs or problem but once it's closed, then it's off to the next one).</p>

<p>A photographer who does maternity glamour, boudoir or weddings has a personal attachment and investment in the clients needs. With weddings in particular, most brides don't realize that we are probably the single most important vendor they will deal with (assuming they value photography and hired a pro to cover the event and like most now, don't hire a wedding planner). We have long consultations before the wedding to ensure we know the schedule and we are there the entire day plus we are the last vendor they have any contact with. Every other vendor (including the person who actually marries you!!) is finished the minute they drop off the flowers, the cake, clean the dishes, collect the chair covers. 3 months later, we're designing an album. 2 years after that we get an occasional email asking "any chance you have a few more shots of my grandmother? She just passed away and the way you captured her on my wedding has been important for me and our family". (Would you trust that question with Bella or an agent? Not me)</p>

<p>I bet few if any brides realize how important the photography will be long after the photographer has closed up shop and retired. Other than the rings, there isn't a single item from the wedding that will be around 50 or 100 years from now. But future generations will be looking at those photos to get a sense of who their great grandma was when she got married.</p>

<p>How many times have each of you in some small or large way, saved the day? I've driven brides to the service when the limo broke down. Provided umbrellas when the weather changed unexpectedly. I've repaired countless dresses (carry a kit just for this) that probably weren't the best body fit choice and blew a zipper or whatever. Provided endless advice, emergency double backed tape, cleaned stains, hair pins and hair spray and so on. For the guys, I bet I've tied 100,000 double Windsor's and put on as many boutonniere's. I carry a couple spare white dress shirts for myself just in case I get wet or need to change a shirt for some reason. A couple of times a groom or best man, who spilled wine or whatever has worn my shirt at the the reception. Even had to play psychologist a few times when the brides day isn't going to plan and she's having a meltdown. I'm sure those of you who have done this awhile have your own stories to tell.</p>

<p>Given all that, I can't see how you can just be handed a client by your agent and expected to understand her needs or have any connection to her day. I think it's the reason, even the top shooters deal directly with each client from start to finish.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I just checked out Bella. I can see why they've failed. Their price point is way too high for what they are offering (not enough of a perceived value by the visitor for the cost), and there isn't any unique selling position. They sacrifice personal touch for web convenience, which in wedding photography seems to be a terrible trade off.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Nate, Bella hasn't failed and are still in business but they have failed in their mission (thankfully). They have tried to turn weddings into a "commodity" (Like Walmart, try to be everything to everyone at the lowest price and wipe out as much competition as possible) and because of the personal connection I discussed above, the model just doesn't work. Any bride who values photography, doesn't want some stranger showing up at the house, that she is now just meeting for the first time, while she's putting her dress on. She doesn't care who delivers the cake, she does care who shoots for her that day. She doesn't care if the Chef she met actually cooks the food as long as the guests and wedding party enjoy it.</p>

<p>Plus, given the price pressures we've discussed, how does the agent make a profit (Bella or anyone else) when so many photographers are struggling or don't even realize they are loosing money doing everything on their own? An agent like Bella can't be the cheapest. The cheapest is $0.00. Uncle Bob does it free. The student who has a $20K student loan from his/her community college and got the 2 year photography diploma will do it free to build a portfolio. Dozens of Craiglist and weekend warriors do it for under $500 or $1000 even if that results in a $1 or $2 hourly wage.</p>

<p>Now if your rainmaker was a business adviser, then that's an entirely different post. Most photographers don't realize that you have to be a business-person first and a photographer second. Shooting is 10-20% of the job. Most see it as the other way around.</p>

<p> </p>

[personalphotos]

<p>Geez these are the longest posts I've ever read or written. Nate you've touched a nerve for some of us!</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Just as Bella tried to turn wedding photography into a commodity, we seem to want to turn wedding photography marketing into a commodity. There isn't one way to do this. Brides are not all the same when it comes to what they want from wedding photography. Photographers aren't all the same. We work in different price markets and locations across the nation (in the US), both urban and non-urban. We work in different countries.</p>

<p>This is why we all need to educate ourselves about marketing first, and then creatively apply what we learn to ourselves and our situations. And then keep changing things to keep up with the changing market.</p>