Shooting at Indoor Gymnastics Meet

[kristin_zinis]

<p>We just got a new F2.8 70-200mm nikon lens. We are hoping to shoot better quality pictures at indoor gymnastics meets where no flash is allowed. Please send any suggestions to keep feet and hands from being blurry on action shots indoors! Thanks!</p>

[Matt Laur]

<p>Which camera are you using?<br /><br />The usual answer is: use the lens wide open or nearly so, and raise the ISO as high as you can stand it, in terms of image quality (noise-wise) so that you don't under-expose while using a high enough shutter speed to get the motion freezing you need.<br /><br />The higher ISO you need is key, here. You might be able to go higher than you think, as long as you do <em>not</em> under-expose at the time you shoot. Shoot RAW, so you have every bit of latitude you can get in post production. How high you can push it depends on not only the camera you're using, but the way you'll be using the images. Web only? 8x10 prints? Larger prints? A lot of high ISO sins are washed away when you don't need a ton of resolution, later. </p>

[rnt]

<p>AAhhh... Just switched from CNN to Unified Forum and saw the headline "Shooting at Indoor Gymnastics Meet" and immediately thought something terrible had happened. Whew!</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Depending on the level of competition, and the lighting, and what body you're using - getting still hands and feet can be difficult. </p>

<p>If you are using a D700 / D7000 don't be afraid of 6400 iso. D300 / D300s you're good up to 3200 perhaps 6400 if you need it. </p>

<p>Shoot in shutter (S) mode to stop the action - start at 1/320 and go up. Learn to anticipate the action - so you are ready to shoot at the right moment. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[kristin_zinis]

<p>OMG!!! I laughed so hard when I saw Bob's response!!! Thank you for that!! Maybe I should change the title of my post??</p>

<p>I am using a D70 Nikon. Sorry, I should have put that on the initial post. </p>

<p>Also, If you can be VERY specific for all the settings or combos of settings, that would be greatly appreciated as well!!</p>

[bruce_brown]

<p>Kristin: What lens/iso etc. that wasn't working before you got the 70-200?</p>

[gary_sempler]

Hi Kristin. The gym i shoot in gives me iso 6400, 1/640 sec at f 2.8. D700. At 1/640I still get blur but only about 20% of the time. I would think you need a d300 or300s to get good resalts. Even better with the D700.<div></div>

[pcnilssen]

<p>I don't remember whether the D70 has Auto ISO, but if it has, I'd try manual settings, 1/320sec or shorter, f3.3 and AutoISO. If the D70 has not AutoISO, I'd set it to ISO 1600 and compensate with the shutter. But I remember that the D70 was no wizard on High Iso numbers regarding grain.</p>

<p>That being said, my shooting in similar conditions as yours, indoor gymnastics, was the main reason why I upgraded my D70 to a D300.....</p>

[frank_skomial]

<p>In case lighting there is too dark, have a 50/1.4 and/or 85/1.4 lenses handy.<br>

Unless you do your own post-processing, I would activate some noise reduction for high ISO.<br>

It works nicely on D70 at ISO 1600.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Kristin - </p>

<p>With the D70 I'd go ISO 1600 or HI 1 - and use a post production noise reducer like Noise Ninja or Noiseware Pro (both photoshop plug-ins) - </p>

<p>Unfortunately with the D70 - you won't have the super ISO of the later models (D300, D700, D7000) - so you will be somewhat limited there. </p>

<p>Personally even though the D70 has Auto ISO, I avoid it like the plague. It's a pain in the neck and one more thing to worry about, plus it always seems to blow out highlights in darker places. </p>

<p>So - I'd start at ISO 1600, shutter speed 1/320, S priority mode. See what that looks like then adjust from there - if photos are blurry increase ISO and Shutter speed. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[eric_arnold]

<p>don't go above ISO 1600 with a D70.</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>If you need to show people the pix on the day, I'd shoot JPEGs as well, I would think Auto White Balance would work. The only arena I've shot in was indoor show-jumping and it had Incandescent, Fluorescent , Mercury Vapour and a few shafts of daylight!</p>

<p>Difficult to know whether this shoot can be done on a tripod/monopod?</p>

<p>At the speeds quoted so far, ie about 1/320, it's a borderline speed for VR, it could be helpful if handheld. Don't forget the VR on the lens will diminish your movement, but will not effect the gymnast's movement. I'd switch it on to the Normal setting, unless you're on 'bouncy' bench seating where Active might be better. You don't say which lens version I or II you have, so I'm not sure you have all these settings available.</p>

[lisae]

<p>Kristin, you've already gotten great advice. Just wanted to add that I shoot Acrobatic gymnastics for my son's team. I'll share my personal experience. With my D5000, I almost always have to shoot at ISO 3200, f/2.8, and 1/320. I still get blur at the tips of fingers and toes but most people are forgiving of that. (So do the pros. I don't know why they don't raise their ISOs to get better shutter speeds.) I think a better shutter speed is 1/500. But some gyms are so dark that I can't get above 1/200. Every time I go to a new gym I feel like I'm stepping off a ledge - I never know what I will find. </p>

<p>And I agree about using auto white balance. Most gyms have a mix of old and new lights and even a mix of lights. I've tried setting a custom white balance and it doesn't do much better than the camera does on auto white balance.</p>

<p>Depending on what you are shooting and where you are standing, you also need to think about depth of field at f/2.8. F/3.5 is better, but I don't usually have that much flexibility. (Someone bought a digital file from a pro last year, and he used f/3.5.) I have a 50mm/1.4, but I end up with more depth-of-field problems.</p>

<p>Acro is slightly different than Artistic, but please let me know if I can help any further. </p>

<p>Mike, are mercury vapor lights the ones that cycle from green to pink? </p>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>In ye olde days of film, when ASA speeds were limited to around 800 under artificial light, the maxim was to aim for the "peak of the action", i.e. at the zenith of a jump or at the moment when the action is at the very point of changing direction. This way the amount of movement is at a minimum while still giving the impression of action and speed. The gymnast at the most upside-down point of a somersault shown above is a good example. Another good thing to bear in mind is that movement toward or away from the camera gives less blur than movement across the frame.<br>

Personally I think this is still a good way to work, despite cameras being several times more sensitive and indoor light levels at public events being generally a lot higher these days.</p>

[sjoerd_leeuwenberg]

<p>I agree with Lisa that the F2.8 aperture is not always helpful because of the limited depth of field. The nice picture Gary posted also looks like suffering more from DOF issues than motion blur issues, but it's not easy to see at this size, so maybe I'm mistaken.<br>

@200m F2.8 and 10 meters distance, the DOF will only be 28cm according to <a href="http://www.dofmaster.com">www.dofmaster.com</a>. Maybe besides the great new lens you got, a step towards a D90 or D7000 might be helpfull. Don't think you are trying simple things, pictures like that are not easy even under the best circumstances. I personally would not mind the blurry toes as in Gary's picture. Good luck </p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>Lisa, I've experienced it under pairs of fluorescent 'strip' lights with magnetic ballast (old design). It's to do with the (humanly) invisible flicker at a frequency that comes in and out of phase with your shutter speed. As the colour temp varies on the way up and down the cycle frequency, you can end up with an unbalanced amount of alternating green - magenta. Often paired strip lights are completely out of phase to try to balance flicker. It also stops the stroboscopic 'freezing' effect of high speed rotating objects. The newer electronic ballast type work at a much higher frequency so don't enter the flicker frequency zone that effects shutter based images.</p>

<p>As it is a phosphor based system aswell, Mercury vapour lights <em>might</em> be the same, I've never seen it, but...!!</p>

[craig_shearman1]

<p>I do a custom white balance when shooting under these situations in order not to have to spend time correct WB later. As Sjoerd says, depth of field is limited even at 2.8, so a 1.4 lens isn't much help, especailly if it's not long enough. Real key is having a camera that can do high ISO and still look good. My D200 can't go past 1600 without looking like crap. The D70 is even older so I imagine you have the same limit. Rodeo is on the money -- pretend that it's film days and go for peak of action, etc. Also, even though the 70-200 has VR, a monopod can still be useful in minimizing camera shake.</p>

[lisae]

<p>Rodeo Joe, just wanted to thank for you summing that up so succinctly. I've learned to do that instinctively but hadn't thought about the physics of it. It's a bit easier with Acro because the pairs/trios usually pause for a moment before the skill. I'll be carrying your words in my head now. </p>

<p>Mike, these aren't fluorescent strip lights, but maybe I don't know what those look like. They may just be tungsten lights or fluorescent bulbs in a round dome fixture. I can't find a picture right now.... Two gyms have these and they are much, much worse (in terms of cycling and temp color change) than [what I think are] the fluorescent strip lights. I'll have to look around when I have more time tonight.</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>Fluorescents can be 'ring' shaped aswell. Tungstens are pretty stable in the short term, no flicker and an even colour temp; they do gradually get cooler over months/years of use, ie > lower Deg K > more orangey.</p>

<p>There's a rough way to find out, bit weird but it usually works! Set the camera to daylight balance, the little sun symbol I guess..:-) Take a shot of the light without any another light source if you can. Tungsten comes out a nice yellowy orange, old fluorescents come out a pretty horrid green, the more modern ones a kinda greeny purply white and mercury vapour bulbs a more blue-green white.</p>

[jim_jones3]

<p>This evening I'll be shooting small town basketball with a Nikon D3100, 35mm f/1.8 at maybe f.2.2, and about 1/320 second, manual exposure. It should be much easier to catch the peak of action in basketball than in gymnastics</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Jim - It's all about anticipation and knowing the sport - knowing where the action is going to be 2 or 3 steps ahead of the action. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[zack_zoll]

<p>Kristen, there's been a lot of suggestions, but I just want to add one: I used a D70 myself for a long time, and I wouldn't expect miracles. I shot roller derby very well with my 85 f/1.4 (faster bodies, but hands and feet move more slowly), but I never had much luck with my 70-200. When using the larger lens, I actually found it helped to use a bounce flash on low power to add those extra couple stops of light I lost when switching to 2.8. With a lowish ceiling I was only on 1/8th flash power from an SB-800, but in a gymnasium I might have used 1/2, which is obviously a lot more.</p>

<p>Don't expect miracles from the new lens. It's a fantastic piece of kit, but there are still limiations to your gear, and it's neither realistic or fair to your gear or to yourself to expect pro shots every time now that you've bought it. As David said ...</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p ><a name="00a1He"></a><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=3687314">David Haas</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub5.gif" alt="" /></a>, Feb 16, 2012; 07:16 p.m.</p>

</blockquote>

 

<blockquote>

<p>It's all about anticipation and knowing the sport - knowing where the action is going to be 2 or 3 steps ahead of the action.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's the most important part. I missed 100% of the shots I wasn't prepared for. If you know the routines, getting the photos will be much easier, with any gear. A D70 and familiarity with their routines will almost always yield better photos than a D3 with a guy that doesn't know what to expect.</p>

 

[michael_kuhne]

<p>I sometimes shoot some indoor roller hockey these days, and need around 1/500 sec to stop action with this very fast-moving sport. The lighting is not the greatest in many rinks, but f/2.8 is usually sufficient. Flash would not be useful. I do not always wish to stop action completely, however, and sometimes go to a little less shutter speed.</p>

<p>For other, less-fast sports, I have used much less shutter speed because I sometimes want some blur of extemities to convey action and the dynamics of what is going on. For wrestling competition I usually like 1/125 to 1/250 sec. and use fill flash. Since the flash only provides a little fill, it has no meaningful ability to stop action. In this example, you can see the effect would be far less dynamic if the foot blur were not there and his body appeared to be stationary. I have many wrestling shots with motion blur to good effect. Here, 1/125 sec and about f/4.5 or so with ISO 800 film.</p><div></div>

[lisae]

<p>Mike, interesting experiment. Thanks, I'm going to try it this season.</p>

<p>I just typed in a search for "sodium gym lights" (I was trying out different possibilities) and this picture popped up: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=216343. This is what I get at one of the gyms. So maybe they are sodium. I do get more of a greenish tint when it cycles, but that may be a white balance problem. I'm now at the point in the learning curve to start thinking about the more challenging white balance problems. (I get a lot of experience with fluorescent in our gym. Fortunately, the lighting there is fairly good.)</p>

<p>As Zack said:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>If you know the routines, getting the photos will be much easier, with any gear. A D70 and familiarity with their routines will almost always yield better photos than a D3 with a guy that doesn't know what to expect.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Never having used a D70, I would add that a D70 with a thoughtful photographer will get better photos than the one with the D3 who shoots mindlessly. (IMO, processing skills help, too.)</p>

[daniel_johnson6]

<p>Congratulations on the new lens---it's a good one.<br>

Here are my suggestions:<br>

ISO at 1600.<br>

<em>Aperture </em>priority (A) and set the lens to f2.8. This way, your D70 will always give you the maximum shutter speed available for the current lighting conditions. Then watch what shutter speed the camera is giving you--it will fluctuate depending on the current composition. If it's 1/250 or higher, you're doing okay, if it's over 1/500, you're going to be happy. If it drops below 1/250, then motion images probably won't be sharp, so you should look for a different angle/area.<br>

If you're way under 1/250, then there might not be much you can do.<br>

If you get lucky and are up over 1/1000 (though I doubt it), you might experiment with lowering the ISO (maybe to 800), or stopping down the lens (maybe to f/4). In any case, don't be afraid to try various settings during the shoot.</p>

<p>Good luck, and why not share some of your shots after the big day?</p>