Bride Advice

[sylvia_reese]

<p>Hello, I am new to this forum and was looking for some advice.<br>

I am having difficulty with a bride... My partner and I sat down with her and her finace back in March, she was referred to us by one of our favorite clients, so we thought nothing of it. After meeting with both of them we knew the bride was going to be more demanding than usual, but thought we could handle it. She has a very controlling personolity, which I'm sure most of you are familiar with. This is her second wedding and they were really going all out for it. We had met with them for an hour and a half in the initial concult, going over all the details of how we work, they saw all of our examples and our shooting style. A few weeks later, they signed the contract and put their down payment down. A few weeks later she said she wanted to send us example of some of the shots that they both really like and wanted. We were hesitent because we don't typically like to "copy" poses, but we said we could duplicate the ones they really likes, but in our own style. <br>

The wedding day arrives and everything seems to be going well. They are short on time, but that is what usually happens. We had an itinerary that we were supposed to stick to. She did not want to do photos of her and the bridemaids before hand like she planned, which was okay because were supposed to have plenty of time afterwards. The beach they got married on got double booked, so they had to quickly clean up and move way down the beach to take formals etc. My partner and I started to do the formal shots that they wanted while they were arriving from their qucik limo ride. It was an extremel hot day and the family was growing impatient so we were trying to get everyone done as quickly as possible. Her 9 year old daughter was growing extremely tired and uncooperative so everything took a little longer. After asking her husband is he wanted a photo with his side of the family and him saying "yes", the bride then yelled at me saying "What is going on? This is not what I wanted!" I said this is what Jim wanted, she then yelled back, "Don't listen to him, listen to me!" Her little tantrum was very embarresing as her entire family was standing right their, I am not a child and no matter how much someone pays me, I do not handle disrepect well, especially when it is out of line, but I remained professional. We then did the rest of the formals and bride shots etc. Dinner was served an hour late the guests were getting grumpy. We did all of the shots that she wanted and the day hankfully ended. <br>

The next day we got a call from her asking us if we could take some photos of the changing leaves since we did not have time at the wedding, wording it like it was somehow our fauly, which, is untrue, the leaves were still green by the lake, not colorful fall leaves. We took 2x the amount of photos as any other wedding, she did not seem like she trusted us at all. We repsonded back, saying that we can snap a few pictures of the trees, but we were not driving back 1 hour to their wedding site, unless she paid a fee. This was not in the contract and normally I go above and beyond for a bride but after getting yelled at, I was not going those lengths. Needless to say, her photos turned out beautifully, some of the best we have taken, and this was not just out opinion. They saw their proofs and wanted to know if they could help design the album, we politely said they are welcome to writes and noted and give input, but that is not something that we do. They have a chance to review the album and make edits. I then asked her how she liked the photos, and then she proceeded to make some complaints of what she didn't like, barely mentioning what she did like. We have never had a bride not LOVE her photos. It is really hard to not take this personally. She said they just weren't what she invisioned. It seems that what she invisioned was another photographers work and not ours. I know that she is going to be extremely difficult with the album, which leads to me to my question. Would it be very unprofessional to give them a refund for the album/design work and say that we don't think we will be able to please her, and she can take the disk to someone that can. Obviously, saying this politely. This wedding has caused a tremendous amount of stress for my partner and I. We know she will not like the design work because if she doesn't do it herself she won't like it. I am so sorry for the novel I wrote, but any advice is welcome. Thank you very much!!!</p>

[mariosforsos]

<p>First, setting aside the fact that this is a public forum and your name, along with the comments, are now fully searchable, I do not think you should pre-empt the client's reactions. From what you've written she does not sound unlike approximately 50% of my wedding clients (give or take something) - especially those who are going through the process for the second or third time. They tend to be ALOT more specific with respect to what they want, how they want it and, give the fact you pretty much knew that from the beginning, you should have either anticipated it or simply bear it and keep moving forward.</p>

<p>Without knowing what your contract says about what is included and what not, I cannot offer any more specific advice, but my one would be to remain completely calm, ALWAYS be reasonable and professional in ALL aspects of your contacts with her and deliver what you would anyway and then simply work with her on any changes she might want. Remember, while this for you is a job, for her is something about a billion times more special and, frankly, you should try to be more understanding and accommodating.</p>

<p>But hey, that's just me. I have been faced with explosions far grander and more embarassing than the one you describe, but I know this has nothing to do with me - most brides (and their mothers) place themselved under enormous stress when preparing their dream wedding, so I have come to expect an explosion or two as part of the normal proceedings. Smile and always speak in a calm and collected voice and everything will always be fine. </p>

<p>As for the album, accommodate her as much as you can. You gain nothing (save a few hours) by making her an "enemy" but you may gain alot by making her a satisfied customer (even if she doesn't realise it, when people see your work in her album and photos will naturally inquire about you).</p>

[john_h.1]

<p>Its wedding photography. It sometimes features undesirable drama. If you don't turn away the work at the outset, handle it methodically. You will probably encounter grief either way so suck it up and follow the contract. You are taking this WAY to personally and hyping yourself up. Look at this long winded chronicle you drafted. It should have been condensed in to a normal length paragraph. Instead, you spend a great amount of your time revisiting the events in great consuming detail. A genuine crisis was expected after all that.</p>

<p>I do sympathize with you but some tough love is required. Wedding photography requires thick skin sometimes. Grow some. Finish the job and when that's done, then close the door and walk away.</p>

[bikealps]

<p>Can you satisfy her desire for fall leaves by photographing some leaf backgrounds and using them in the album? At the wedding site, the leaves hadn't turned yet and it would be expensive in time -- 1 hour each way -- to reshoot them. Instead, can you take a couple of leaf shots and use them in the album? For example, you could:</p>

<ol>

<li>do the classic carpet of leaves on the ground and use it as a background, putting wedding shots on top of it,</li>

<li>photograph some individual leaves that are particularly beautiful, cut them out in photoshop, and use them to decorate the margins of a few pages, or</li>

<li>photograph some backlit trees with red/yello leaves and use that as a background in the album.</li>

</ol>

<p>Potentially, you could re-use these background shots for future work, so the time wouldn't be completely wasted.<br /><br />I think its very nice that she had ideas of poses she wanted. A more involved bride is one who cares more about the end product and your fine work. Suggesting her own poses lets you shoot her as she would like to be seen and means you're less likely to get a bunch of stiff-jointed mannekins.<br /><br />Weddings are stressful for families and especially for brides. Even a dream bride is going to experience stress. It's the biggest day of her life, so it's really important. If you're working for someone who is experiencing stress, you'll get to share the stress.<br /><br />The next day call and album review experience sounds tough, but the pre-wedding day and wedding day don't sound too out of the ordinary. I'd push back diplomatically by putting things in the positive and finding other ways to satisfy the bride as best you can.</p>

[Marcus Ian]

<p>Well, even though it's clear you are distressed by her response, you'll need to put your emotions aside. As others have pointed out, you seem to have internalized a lot of the emotions of the day, and the experience. Frankly, bring it back to a rational business propostition. It sounds like you rocked the day -- the hard part is over</p>

<p>I've dealt with this 'type' of bride before, and to be honest, the simplest thing may be to mediate your 'policies' to most effectively handle it.<br>

For example, "They saw their proofs and wanted to know if they could help design the album, we politely said they are welcome to writes and noted and give input, but that is not something that we do"<br>

There is a simple solution. Find a way to let them design it. Have them submit their design to you when they finish, at which you can certainly revise (but wouldn't necessarily advise it). It's not really that simple, but given the difficulties, it may be the simplest (and most cost effective) solution. You DO NOT want to have to continually revise your design to meet her expectations (adds a lot of time), which WILL occur if anybody (other than her) is in the drivers seat. A 'refund' for this isn't appropriate, as she is requesting the option, which <em>of course</em> you can accommodate.</p>

<p>I would also offer to do a 'bridal party' shoot (for a fee of course) in which you guys could work in a much less time restricted (and much less stressful) environment to get some imagery she 'envisioned', and who's images could be incorporated into the album.</p>

<p>As far as the leaves go, your response was the right one, did she pay you to go back, or accept 'local leaves'?</p>

<p>I guess the lesson to take is that you can always act professional, and as a professional, upgrades/extras (always something on the table for the <em>discerning</em> bride) are saleable items.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>The time to walk away was before the contract was signed.</p>

<p>Best advice at this point is to put on a brave face, suck it up and deliver the best album you can. Of course, making sure that she reviews and approves the proofs before you go to print the album.</p>

<p>As for the leaves, unless she is looking for a complete, specific location shot, she's not going to know the difference between one tree and another. If your contract called for a location shot (showing the beach) where the wedding occurred at - you may want to run back and get that for her.</p>

<p>Weddings bring out the best and worst in people - every bride wants the perfect everything. Some brides are easier to satisfy than others. They have a vision of what the day should be like in their mind and if it doesn't go exactly like they see it - they are not happy.</p>

<p>Sounds like you handled the double booking as well as you could - I've had that a couple of times - where there is a before or after wedding. Since the venue booked them back - to - back - you really don't have a say in that and have to work with what you get dealt.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

<p> </p>

[sylvia_reese]

<p>Marios-Obviously, I did not use my real name or their real names. And we remained and still remain calm and professional when dealing with her. We are professionals. And this is not just a paycheck for me, this is my passsion, so yes, I do take it personally even when I shouldn't always.<br>

Allan- Yes, we took the shots of the leaves she requested at a local park, that wasn't as big of a deal. We appreciate any ideas couples share with us, but she wanted everything to look EXACTLY like it did in her samples. Which is just not possible.<br>

Marcus- Do you have any suggestions of how they can design it themselves? We mainly use photoshop, is there an easier program they can create. She initially asked if they could sit with us and design the album, which is just not possible either. Thank you for your response it was very helpful. We have dealt with stressed and detail oriented brides many times, but she has taken it to a whole new level.<br>

David- Thanks for the advice. I was so hoping someone would say we could give her a refund, hahaha. </p>

[bikealps]

<p>Sit with you and design the album together? wow! I'd never sign up for that. It is a multi-day process.</p>

<p>You could suggest she purchase CS5 or InDesign and design the album and submit it to you for printing. Once she gets started, she'll realize just how impossible this is. :-) Only problem is you have to hand over all your originals to let her get this education.</p>

[bob_sunley]

<p>Congrats on not using your real name, there have been a number of threads similar to this where the photographer did use her real name. The moderators have usually been kind enough to change those names as well.</p>

<p> </p>

[maira_sharron]

<p>When she met with you, she should have seen your style in your prints and your albums. Had she brought up at that time that she wanted to be fully participatory in the album design, that's one thing. To say it after the fact is another. I also don't agree with changing your shooting style to accommodate your client, if it wasn't discussed before the contract was signed. If the reason she hired you wasn't your shooting style or the quality of your album design - what was it? My guess is price? Then she wanted you to emulate a photographer that she could not afford (I'm guessing of course). </p>

<p>I agree that the customer should be dealt with kid gloves, but not at the cost of compromising my work style. And I have said this to them. With regard to copying other photographers style - I had a bride that wanted to show me photos of what she wanted that she saw at her friend's wedding, including the way to process it. This was a couple days before the wedding. I said no. Not that bluntly, of course. It's not that I didn't want to please her -- just wanted to give her a reality check. If she wanted another photographer, she should have hired that other photographer. People hired me based on the work that I have done. I'm fully okay with them hiring someone else if they want to be immersed in how the photos are taken. It takes the pressure of trying to be what I'm not off of me.</p>

<p>As far as the album design -- what I told my brides was that I create the design of the album and choose the photos that I feel best tell their story. Once I complete the design, I send it to them in a page flipping web format. At that time, if they would rather replace certain photos with other photos, they have one opportunity to tell me their changes, and I gladly make them and create the final version. No more changes after that. And no changes to the design at all.</p>

<p>I'm not hardened to the needs of the bride and groom. I have offered a free after session to one bride and groom when a tornado ripped through their city on their wedding day. I often offered free engagement sessions to couples when I thought an area was in gorgeous bloom, or I wanted to try out a series of photos that weren't typical. However, I do draw the line at being told that I would need to give them a free session because the trees weren't the color they wanted, or if they didn't plan their day well enough to incorporate all the photos they wanted. By the way -- a preconsult a few days before the wedding, looking at their timeline (which I would have requested), might have given you a heads up on issues you may have to face. Roll with the punches on the day of the wedding - timelines never stick anyway. Do your best on the wedding day - be professional and polite, which I'm sure you were. However, I will not bend over backwards after the fact to ensure they still liked me. I would feel no qualms about saying that I would be happy to accommodate their wish for another session at a stated fee. But no freebies. And heaven forbid - don't get her involved in designing the album, otherwise it will take you three times as long.</p>

<p>Many will disagree with me, I'm sure. </p>

[maira_sharron]

<p>Of course I skimmed through your original post and then waited a couple hours before replying so what you wrote wasn't fresh in my mind. Let me add - Was there a shot list? Was the groom's family on the shot list? If not - why was the photo taken? I guess that's the real question. If it wasn't something that the bride and groom stated that they wanted, then she had a reason to get a little ticked off and then I'm sure it probably grew from that moment. The other question is -- did you promise her something and then didn't deliver? Like the trees? Why was dinner an hour late -- was it due to the formal photos that had to be taken? I suppose I should have asked those questions first. If, for some reason, the timeline was messed up because you took longer than needed to take photos, then she might have a reason to complain about "her vision." I guess I need to hear more of the story to determine whether or not I would offer an after session "for free." It all depends on if you delivered what you promised -- and if the delays were issues out of or in your control.</p>

<p>I stick by my album design comments, however. It sounds like you do what I do -- there's no reason for a bride to determine every aspect of the design. If she doesn't like your design, she can feel free to create her own with the pictures she received from you. Don't offer a refund -- stick it out to the end and do what your contract states you would do.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>I agree with many above, on the following points.</p>

<p>1. The time to walk away from this client was before the wedding. Since you thought you could handle her, you have a responsibility (professional integrity) to complete what you promised to do. So I take a dim view of trying to duck out of the album design part of your commitment.</p>

<p>2. You are taking things a bit too personally. If you photograph weddings long enough you will run across all kinds of bad behavior, directed at others during the day and directed at you. It will run the gamut from direct abuse to well disguised manipulation.</p>

<p>When you are shooting as a professional, you must be 'professionally nice' at all times, including while taking direct abuse. This does not mean you allow people to walk all over you--it just means that you remain calm, not do anything to make the situation worse (as in responding in kind), and do everything to smooth things over so that you all can do what you are all supposed to do. If this means ignoring insults, you do it. Sounds like you were professionally nice, and that is good. It is good to be able to vent later, among other professionals too. If that is what you are doing, that's fine, but this aspect should not be part of the decision to duck out album design.</p>

<p>3. You handled the issue with the leaves just fine.</p>

<p>4. Again--if you shoot weddings long enough, you will run across brides who, for whatever reason (and there are many), feel that a photographer should be able to read their mind and know exactly what she 'envisioned' for her wedding photos. There is always an emotional let down for a bride immediately after the wedding and honeymoon. This can sometimes translate into the bride feeling that her day wasn't 'captured' properly in images because she cannot get the same emotional impact from her photos as she felt leading up to and including the wedding day. Of course, no photographer alive can give her images that have the same emotional impact.</p>

<p>Your suspicion that she wanted some other photographer's style may or may not be true. I would not necessarily take it as a given.</p>

<p>It is hard to swallow the fact that a bride may not be ecstatic over your images. To repeat--it is going to happen from time to time. It is hard not to take it personally, but basically, you have to. Your stress does not absolve you from this. Don't make the mistake of letting a hurt ego create excuses or speculative reasons for this fact. Remain objective and do what you said you'd do.</p>

<p>5. Re the album design. I've done things the old fashioned way, and it has worked for me before. For brides who wanted to be 'all in' when designing their album, I actually ask them to draw the design on sheets of paper. One sheet per album page. It can help for the bride to print up 4x6s of the images she wants to use, and use them to layout the album pages on her floor, then transfer the design to the drawings on sheets of paper. It is horribly old style, but it works--no special software required.</p>

<p>Then, do up her design as given to you and apply controls and deadlines to the process. Design has to be given to you by x date and the whole process must be complete by x date or you can't guarantee the price. Then they are allowed x changes, x rounds of changes (you don't even have to allow this), x proofs, otherwise you start charging x dollars.</p>

[Marcus Ian]

<p>As far as the album design goes, Adobe has a 30day fully functional 'trial' license. Just have her DL CS5 w/ the trial license. She'll have 30days to finish her album and get it to you. Easier though... IDK, PSelements? PaintShopPro? I'd think those'd work in a pinch, really, but it depends on the format you/your vendor will accept... Of course she will have to have a copy of the pics, but I'm sure you can arrange that.</p>

<p>Of course Nadines method would work just fine too (I'd think) :-)</p>

[sylvia_reese]

<p>Maira- There was a shot list and that was what we were going off of, it said "Jack's extended family", which is who was in the photo, it was Jack's family and he wanted the photo. I'm still not sure where the outburst came from, which is why I was offended. The wedding was delayed for many reasons, the bride was not ready when she planned on being ready, and then the vendor that was setting up the beach site was not ready in time. Then we had to gather the family much farther down the beach then we originally thought (the double booking). She had told us several times that the photos were her main priority and she wanted to get everything she wanted, the photos didn't take longer than planned, everything just got pushed back and their was a lot of photos to take. <br>

Nadine- That actually is a great idea, maybe if she just designs a couple spreads she will feel like it was her design, which I am fine with at this point. <br>

We actually got a call from her today apologizing for the earlier phone conversation, she said that when I asked about that photos she just named off things she didn't like, which was not right to do because she actually liked the photos a lot and appreciates our time. <br>

It made things a little better, haha. Thank you to all of you who offered constructive advice and suggestions, we really appreciate it!!</p>

[ianivey]

<p>Do you own a Taser? I've only had to use mine three times on mouthy brides, but each instance has reinforced my hypothesis that it's hard to be bossy and expect people to take you seriously when you're lying prone on the ground with your jaw clenched shut. As with so many other things, I learned this technique from Nadine (though she's quicker and more stealthy with hers than I am with mine -- I'm still learning; she's like a freakin' ninja). Side benefit: all the temporary muscle tension it causes is a lot like exercise, and after a few minutes it helps people wind down when they're stressed out. The device takes up about as much room as a speedlight -- fits perfectly in the bag, and even sorta looks like a flash when it goes off.</p>

<p>When the bride shouted at you, that might have been an opportunity to be a calming influence at a stressful moment. Or maybe not -- photography was the focal point of the stress, so perhaps you could have done nothing better. But even after she shouted at you the second time, you might have earned considerable benefit from reacting in a way that showed you were immediately and solely conscious of her distress and wanted to figure out a way to alleviate it right away. It's difficult to react this way when a bride's distress causes her to act out disrespectfully, but a reaction that demonstrates genuine concern and understanding from you in that moment is so unexpected that it alone can jar someone out of the panic she is feeling. </p>

<p>But again, perhaps you did this to no avail.</p>

<p>As for the album design, it probably doesn't matter much whether you flex to allow her to guide the album design or not. If you don't, you'll still allow her to make edits, and that's just the way you work. She might be difficult or not. If you do, then you'll certainly need to establish clearly that you're modifying your agreement, and then set (and get written agreement to) well-defined limitations to the process. </p>

<p>And through all of this, you'll be okay. </p>

[ianivey]

<blockquote>

<p>I'm still not sure where the outburst came from, which is why I was offended. </p>

</blockquote>

<p>You know, you probably <em>do </em>know where it came from. It wasn't you. It came from:</p>

<ol>

<li>being a bride,</li>

<li>on an extremely hot day,</li>

<li>with her family growing impatient,</li>

<li>and her 9-year-old daughter being tired and uncooperative,</li>

<li>all while someone else started directing the photos while these things were nagging at her, and from</li>

<li>being a bride.</li>

</ol>

<p>If you start expecting this kind of response to a situation with several stress-inducing components, you'll react better, and primarily with sympathy, when brides snap, rather than taking it personally or even bothering to be offended at all. And you'll earn a lot of points with the bride, the groom, and the family. </p>

<p>Sounds like you held your tongue in the moment, which is a very good first step. :)</p>

[francie_baltazar]

<p>I am hoping that things smoother over for you with this bride... the only piece of advise I would give you is to meet with her before you design - take your albums and get her likes and dislikes from that... then you have a foundation to build on... leave your feelings behind and start anew... she may end up being a good client -- good luck...</p>

[wedding-photography-denver]

<p>If you are under contract to provide the album, this will be a though one. However, if you can get through it with her, AND please her with a ton of work, do so.</p>

<p>A good reputation is very hard to gain, and very easy to lose (even when you client seems the most unreasonable).</p>