moving up from 35mm

[jamiew]

I am interested in moving beyond 35mm and am currently looking for a

larger format camera. My requirements are (in no preticular order)

hand holdable, durrable, portable, great quality pictures, reletively

cheap, at least 120 film capable. Based on some research I have

selected three rather different cameras that seem to meet my

criteria, and represent (base on my research) some of the best

cameras in their respective categories. They are:

 

- Rolleiflex 3.5/2.8F TLR

 

- Zeiss (Super) Ikonta C 520/2

 

- Graflex Speed Graphic (with 4x5 and 120 back)

 

While I have read many people's opinions on each camera, for obvious

reasons I have never seen a really good comparison between the

cameras. I already have a good understanding of their sizes and the

benefits of the (limited) movements of the speed graphic so I am

looking for other comments. Here are a few questions I have:

 

- Which camera takes the best possible pictures (in order)?

 

- Which camera is the most reliable?

 

- Which camera is the most cost effective in the long run (Not

counting film, and assuming no more than one extra lens on the Speed

Graphic). I am looking for comments on repairs, CLA, parts, etc...

 

- What should I expect to pay for each camera in a condition 8,9 or

10.

 

- What other cameras would be good alternatives? I am only concerned

with brand names in the sence that they tend to have earned their

reputations. I am also wondering how much better they are than their

competition. An example of this is that the Rolleiflex 3.5/2.8F is

definatly better than the YashicaMat 124G, but is it 10% better or

something more substantial like 50% better. At what size

enlargements would I notice the difference, etc...

 

I realize that I am asking a lot, but I am a rather troubled soul in

need of advise =). I guess you can summarize everything based on me

looking for the best picture with a low price, and little fuss.

[david_goldfarb]

Cameras don't take pictures, people do. Many great photographs have been made with each of these systems.

 

That said, the Speed Graphic, if you don't find it too cumbersome for your style of work, gives you the most flexibility in terms of options. You can easily switch to 4x5" or Polaroid or 6x7, 6x9, or 6x12 if you get a camera with a Graflok back. All large format lenses work on virtually any large format camera (pending certain physical parameters like min./max. bellows extension and the diameter of the lens in comparison with the size of the lensboard), so you can upgrade or add additional lenses any time you want. If you get a later Super Graphic, you get front tilt, though you lose the focal plane shutter, if that is of interest.

 

A TLR is faster to work with--you compose and focus through the same finder, but with the Rollei you have a fixed lens. The Mamiya C330 is a nice option if you like the way a TLR works, but want interchangeable lenses.

[bob_chong]

Personally, I would never use a vintage folder (e.g., Super Ikonta) as my ONLY camera. I'm sure some people do, though.

 

No car can fit a family of six, go 225 MPH, haul ten tons behind it, and get 50 miles per gallon. Likewise, no camera can do everything, either. Decide what you want to *do* with the camera, and that will make your choice simple. For example, if you need movements, then you've ruled out two camera immediately.

 

The Yash 124G is overrated/overpriced. Look for a Yashica D or any other Y'mat with the Yahshinon lens. It's hard to quantify how muc "better" or "worse" this set-up would be than a Rolleiflex, in terms of picture quality. The Yashinon is tack sharp and will produce beautiful enlargements that will blow away your 35mm stuff. I do not think that a $600 Rolleiflex will produce pictures 6 times better than a $100 Yashica D. Also, when buying Rollei you are competing not only with other users but with Rollei fetishists, which will drive up the price. The fit and finish of a Rollei is something entirely different than the Yashica, but the Yashicas are no slouches and built to last.

 

You should just buy any of your choices (or a Yashica) in perfect optical and mechanical condition and start using it. If you like it, keep it. If not, sell it on eBay for what you paid. It's like a free rental system. Or buy all of the cameras and then sell the one(s) you like least.

 

It's hard to argue that the 4x5 negatives from the Graphic wouldn't be the biggest improvement over your 35mm stuff. The negative is 15x the size. A 16x20 print from the Graphic would be about the same enlargement factor as a 4x6 print from 35mm.

[fwstutterheim]

I have both the Rolleiflex and the Super Ikonta. The Ikonta is a nice camera to own and to use occasionally. The finder is very small and the bellows is prone to trouble at some time. The Rolleiflex handles much better and far more easily. The Rollei screen is a marvel. Don´t know about the S.G. These cameras were never very popular overhere in Europe. Ferdi.

[robert_eastman]

Well, if you are considering the speed graphic it opens up the range a fair bit. There are heaps of press camera options that are just as good an option as a Speed, unless the focal plane shutter is the big drawcard. Though IMO an Mamiya RB is more hand holdable than a press camera. At least the focusing is more accurate than the rangefinder. Checkout prices for the second lens before you consider a 4x5 to be cheap though. You would probably end up with a 127 ektar on the camera when bought. A nice lens but no movements and a bit wide for general use IMO.

 

My recomendation would be a quasi reputable brand TLR with good optics and NOT the most sought after models. This is just to dip your toes. Then you can decide if you want to start saving for a better camera. The rollieflex is probably a great camera but budget photographers cannot compete with dedicated fetishists.

 

Cheap, rugged and handholdable, your overlooking the RB67. Get one in good nick, with a prism and it is a great starter camera. Don't listen to people who say it weighs too much unless you have held one. As a starter you can deal with the weight until you can afford a Mamiya 7 or even a Blad.

 

Forget the folder route. Unless it has a rangefinder its not worth the hassle. Folders tend to be collected or used a supplimentary cameras.

 

I have no idea about prices, I don't even know what currency you would use.

 

You best use of money would be to buy a lightmeter if you don't already have one. Budget wise a minolta 4f will cover you (with attachments) for everything except 4 to 1 degree spotmetering.

 

I have the above lightmeter, a mamiya c33 three lens kit 55, 80, 180, a pentax 6x7 body w hacked lenses and a 4x5 Crown Graphic. The lack of a polaroid back on the C33 is pushing me towards buying a RB/RZ or Blad. If you buy a cheap TLR you won't be too badly out of pocket when you decide you want the flexibility of a SLR.

[david_goldfarb]

Agreed about the folder. I love my Voigtlander Perkeo II as a 6x6 camera that is smaller than most 35mm rangefinders and that I can carry everywhere, but I wouldn't want it as my only medium format camera. I can do much better with the Bronica S2A.

[graphicjoe]

Jamie,

You don�t give a price range, but you have omitted a camera that I like very much and which can be had with an excellent lens for $1300-$1800�the Mamiya 7II. It is an excellent camera, solid, good handling, a sufficient number of lenses, first rate quality, durable, and reliable.

 

I got mine a few months ago on ebay for $1750 in as-new condition with the 65 mm lens, a good all round choice. To me the Speed Graphic is a fun and interesting novelty, but too heavy and cumbersome for day to day use. The mamiya feels like a 35 mm range finder, albeit a large heavy one. I take mine hiking and it hand holds quite nicely, although a tripod is always recommended if its use is possible.

 

You talk more about cameras than picture taking, and it�s hard to make recommendations without knowing what you want from your work. I wouldn�t get too hung up on just how much percentage-wise one camera is over another. Your questions suggest to me a misunderstanding of what makes for great images, and great images come from photographers, not cameras. Some of my favorite photos were taken with antiquated equipment and film that most modern photographers would scoff at using. All the same, skill and imagination overcame the limitations of the gear to produce something special. This can still happen. Some of my own favorite photos were taken with an Olympus OM-1 and 50 mm lens that would cost about $250 or less in today�s market.

 

If you opt for the Mamiya I would strongly recommend starting with one lens�a 65 or 80�and learning it well before branching out to other focal lengths, assuming you ever need another lens. Note that the older Mamiyas (sixes and sevens) are also great cameras and can be had at lower prices.

Cheers,

Joe

 

PS: great pictures don�t come with �little fuss;� usually they involve a lot of work and planning.

[jamiew]

Thanks for all the advise. Based on all the comments I think I should clarify a few things:

 

- This is not intended to replace my 35mm. It is primarily intended for landscape, and experimentation.

- I did not mention my budget on purpose since I have noticed that in the fourms that when someone mentions prices people's replies seem to be VERY focused on price. I wanted to hear what people's personal opinions were. By the way, In responce to Joe's comments, the Mamiya 7II (or a Fuji) would be my camera of choice if price were not an issue, but I am not willing to invest in that kind of money until I know for sure that I love medium format. I am looking to spend less than $1,000, and preferably much less.

- Based on the comments it seems that the Rolleiflex (or other TLR) would present the least "fuss" of ownership.

[triblett_lungre_thurd]

well,

 

if it's landscapes yer after, that means you'll be using/packing a tripod and if yer gonna go to that much trouble, you might as well shoot a big neg. fer a grand, you can have a nice, light view cam. the SG is a nice route, folds up into a neat/rugged little box and once you take the time to learn it, you'll never consider going back, only up in formats. do keep in mind that you might be in for more investments, like uh, if yer current enlarger can't print the bigger negs... but hey, few folks are willing to fuss with the big stuff anymore, fact is, most are going digital and everything you need to start LF is going cheap, cheap, cheap(got an entire 4x darkroom for $150, got my first B&J orbit fer free!). Do some more research, consider the weight of a mf slr compared to that of a 4x5(same is same unless you've got the money fer somethin' like the M7)... then consider the advantages of having the extra neg space. should be easy to decide if you take yer time.

 

it's slow work, sure, but then, landscape photos look better when you take your time. it's like catfishing. you gotta be patient and wait for the lunker light. the prices? well, ya get what ya pay for... but in all things photo, save yer money fer good glass. but recognize, you can get amazing LF glass fer a song these days(i'm seeing a 90 goerz dagor w/wipes fer 3 bills dood, and i'll bet you my super angulon it has no effect!). on mpex, fer instance, there's a wista vx metal for $739, a toyo 45a metal for $869 and your choice of very useable woodfields starting at $200. ooh! found a sweet little meridian fer $550 in a back-alley shop!

 

i'm talkin' a thousand percent better jamie,

 

me

 

p.s. good luck, have fun...

[r s]

> I am not willing to invest in that kind of money until I know for

> sure that I love medium format.

 

If you dont know if you love medium format yet that might be something to resolve before you spend a thousand dollars on it.

 

Rent a medium format outfit. Try a pentax 67 and a mamiya rb/rz.

Play around with them over a weekend (which is normally cheaper than renting over weekdays) and put both negative and positives through the camera.

Then when you have the slides in your hands start thinking about what you are going to do with them... If you used to scan your slides with a 35mm film scanner chances are it doesn't work for MF size slides.

You may have to buy a new scanner - or have the lab scan for you. Added cost.

 

Do you develop and print yourself? Are you setup to magnify MF negatives? Added cost.

 

If you are currently projecting your 35mm slides...etc..etc...

 

Good luck with your decision.

[photobyalan.com]

I own a Rolleiflex 3.5F with the Planar lens. I cannot speak directly to the Yashicamat, but I have heard both good and not so good things about them. The Rollei is everything you could want in a TLR. That lens is absolutely stunning and the camera has a lot of nice extra features like a DOF scale, self-timer, light meter (and it still works very well) and a small focusing window when using the sports finder.

 

If you are doing landscapes, the Rollei will be fine. However, if you are planning to make really large prints, bigger than 20x24, then your best choice is large format. I don't think you really appreciate the difference that that big negative makes until you see a huge print made from one. I'm talking about a print that you can walk right up to and almost put your nose against it and still marvel at the deatil and sharpness. If you want to see the grain, you have to get your loupe out!

 

Large format would probably be a bigger investment overall, with the film holders and a 4x5 enlarger and fairly expensive lenses, but if you like big prints, it's the best way to go.

[robert_davis2]

" It is primarily intended for landscape, and experimentation. "

 

You don't mention if this means long hikes or just out of the back of the car. If you can handle the weight/size of a large format system I don't think you can go wrong. But I'm not sure I'd focuss on a speed graphic. It's already been mentioned that the lens you get with it might not be the best. In addition they are currently fashionable and that hurts the price. Actually I bet all three of your choices are fashionable to some extent. That's not good if you're trying to keep prices down.

 

Obviously the graphic can take the best pictures. Depending on the lens. It's also potentially the most reliable since most lens will have thier own shutter. Depending on condition and the lens it's bundled with I've seen Graphics go for less then $100 and almost hit $1k. It all depends on the model,condition etc.

 

If you can handle the weight I'd suggest getting something like an older monorail 4x5. A B&J or Calumet should be less then $200. If the condition is less then mint quite a bit less. Add a lens of your choice. Depending on what you mean by experimentation then the monorail will give you max options. If the bellows are good then things like CLA aren't an issue for the camera. Shutters for the lens might need it but that depends on what you buy. The other thing is a 50 year old monorail can use virtually any modern lens. Or only vintage lens for that matter. My camera is 30+ years old. The lens I have is almost 40. The only thing the setup really needs is to have the slow shutter speeds adjusted.

 

"I guess you can summarize everything based on me looking for the best picture with a low price, and little fuss. "

 

I'd suggest forgetting the stuff with collector appeal then and getting a solid TLR. Less then $100 will get you something that works well and takes solid pictures. If you ever get bored with it you won't take a hit on selling it. If that turns out to not be enough then try and borrow a 4x5 camera for a day or two. See if you like the process.

[gene crumpler]

To get your feet wet, the Rolleicord V, Va, or Vb might fill the bill. They have good lenses when shot a f11 and are reasonably priced, $100 to $200. One in good condition will likely appreciate in price as time goes by, so your investment will be protected.