2nd first wedding, need advice

[max_brunell]

<p>So I have already done one wedding..but I got asked last minute and it was not real formal. But it was my first wedding experience and I learned a lot.</p>

<p>Since then, I have gotten married and both my wife and I shoot. We have been asked to do a wedding for a friend. This will be her first and basically my first "real" wedding. I have done a lot of reading on this site and LOVE all of the information and advice. We both have done individual shoots for other people but have not worked together yet. Our plan is to have me be the main shooter and her assist shooting and composing shots.</p>

<p>Our Gear list:</p>

<p>5d Mark 2 with grip<br>

60D with grip<br>

T2i<br>

extra batteries<br>

Sekonic L758dr light meter (still learning how to use)<br>

580ex ii<br>

430ex<br>

(2 sets) wireless transmitters/receivers<br>

2 light stands<br>

60" umbrella<br>

Tripod and monopod<br>

70-200mm 2.8 IS<br>

17-55mm 2.8 IS<br>

85mm 1.8<br>

100mm 2.8L IS<br>

couple kit lenses (28-135 and 18-55)<br>

Im sure there is more im forgetting</p>

<p>For editing:<br>

Adobe Lightroom 3.X<br>

Dell Ultrasharp IPS panel display - calibrated<br>

Display2 color calibration tool</p>

<p>I have been building my equipment for a little while now and feel we have enough to confidently shoot weddings. Although I would like a Canon 24-70mm 2.8 and 85mm 1.2 :) As we are new to wedding photography, the thing I lack is experience and knowledge. What kind of advice can you offer in way of things you encountered and how you handled them?</p>

<p>I.E. low light and unable to focus... I have a little LED flashlight I have used to focus at sunset with off camera flash. In the fast pace of the wedding day/night I dont forsee the ability to do that.</p>

<p>I guess just the uncertainty that comes with a lack of experience is what Im hoping to overcome through this post. Any and all response are grately appreciated!</p>

<p>Thanks,<br>

Max</p>

 

[Dave Gardner]

<p>It seams you have enough of equipment for a start. I would try to add Adobe PhotoShop for editing...i know it's expensive but if you know anyone who is in college or a teacher...they can go to "Campus Tech" and with their ID can pick up PS for about 1/10 the cost.</p>

<p>Also...and i say this a lot...the bride & groom may be your close friends....but the guess are not. I would try to pick-up some type of insurance...just in case. You may also want to request from your friend a separate small table for your equipment...charging batteries...changing lenses..etc</p>

<p>Dave</p>

[picturesque]

<p>My impression, based on your gear list, is that your expectation is--you'll be able to control and have enough time for the photography. I suspect that if you don't plan so that you have that control and time, you won't, causing distress, missed shots and being flustered.</p>

<p>Most people, especially these days, think that all a photographer does is snap away, and perfect pictures result. They don't have a clue that there is more to getting good photos than their just being there--namely, their cooperation and time. Then they are not happy after the wedding when x pictures are missing or not taken the way they envisioned.</p>

<p>It is impossible to list all the things that I've learned over the years of shooting weddings, since unforseen situations can't be categorized. If you haven't assisted for a while, you just need to rely upon common sense and your knowledge of photographic principles.</p>

<p>However, I have one piece of general advice, which originally came from Marc Williams, and which I've embellished. When you are flustered, use Program and smile. If you have the time, say you need to attend to some piece of gear or something and instead, take the time to deliberately slow yourself down (the racing mind) and recover. What seems like a long time is probably only minutes.</p>

<p>As for focusing--use One Shot and focus assist. There is a way to quench the flash if you don't want the flash.</p>

[Spearhead]

<blockquote>

<p>I would try to add Adobe PhotoShop for editing...i know it's expensive but if you know anyone who is in college or a teacher...they can go to "Campus Tech" and with their ID can pick up PS for about 1/10 the cost.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>First of all, Lightroom has become pretty much standard for event shooting, Photoshop is becoming more and more contained in the "graphics" world. In addition, Photoshop is moving to a subscription model that will be substantially more expensive for occasional users like the poster here.<br>

<br />Second, what you recommend regarding educational purchasing fraud is illegal and not condoned by photo.net. This type of recommendation should never be made here. </p>

[richardsnow]

<p>Remember that with a wedding your people skills are very important. Coordination with the wedding planner/coordinator will also be very important. If there is no planner/coordinator, you will likely need the assistance of a friend or family member of the bride/groom that knows everyone so you can get people where you need them when you need them there.</p>

<p>Since this is your "first real wedding" remember to keep the B&G's expectations in check. If you can't deliver what they expect, don't do it. Better if you over-deliver on your promises and their expectations...it's one way to make sure they are happy.</p>

<p>Remember that wedding days are fast paced and hectic. Don't be afraid to walk away for a second and take a deep breath when needed.</p>

<p>Finally, with two shooters, remember to stay out of each others shots. Be very conscious of where the other photographers are and where their lenses are pointed. Also keep in mind where your lens is pointed. It's inevitable that you will be in a few photos and your wife will also be in a few. Just keep them to a minimum and try to make sure your not in any of the money shots (first kiss, first dance, cake, etc)</p>

<p>RS</p>

[Marcus Ian]

<p>The 17-55 is useless on your 5D. The only WA->normal capability you have for the 5D is the 28-135. Essentially, you are handicapping your strongest player (the 5). I would suggest that this is an essential capability, and without it, severely limits your ability to produce high quality work. <br>

If you have a budget for additional eqp., I would suggest either a Tamron 28-75/2.8, or an EF 28/1.8 & EF 50/1.4. The specific gear you choose is, of course, irrelevant, but I expect you'll find you need a fast zoom or a couple of very fast primes in the WA->normal range. The 28-135 is a good lens, and capable, but for wedding work, it really is a 'backup only' optic. </p>

<p>That said, if both you and your wife are going to work this, you need to plan out ahead of time responsibilities, and working goals. Bumping heads, and interfering w/ shots is always a challenge for teams, especially when their equipment comes from the same 'locker', time spent thinking and discussing and planning ahead of time will pay of in spades the day of.</p>

<p>As far as LR vs. PS? I haven't even started up CS5 in several months, my complete workflow is managed through LR... It is <em>more</em> than capable for the occasional wedding. The only reason I bother w/ PS is when I want/need layering capability.</p>

[david_rosenthal1]

<p>I'd rent or buy a third camera body and give that to the main shooter so you can swap rigs instead of lenses. We bring no less than four, just in case something happens to one of them (dropped due to guest pushing us or guest falls drunk onto camera sitting on the floor in what we thought was a safe location). And before you ask, yes it did happen to me! Wide angle zoom or the bazooka (70-210) goes on the second rig depending upon where ceremony is being held. Third rig gets something else as well as a short list of must haves. A flip bracket is also a good idea. So is a lens cloth for fingerprints or rain. A third strobe in case one Konks-out.</p>

<p>As mentioned before, figure out in advance who is doing what. And who will be where, and responsible for which angles at what zoom settings. Don't both get the exact same thing with horse blinders on and have neither of you remember to get bride & groom full length at the altar during the vows for instance.</p>

<p>Basically I treat a wedding like the DOD treats a thermo-nuclear war scenario: have some back-up and maybe some back-up for that too! Some of the extra stuff can sit in a bag locked in the car trunk. After you have an incident (and everybody has if you do this long enough), you'll know what you really need and what to do. In the meantime, plan away and try to have a little enjoyment from all of this hard work, otherwise you'll be a big flame and burn-out real fast!</p>

[the_mongrel_cat]

<p>Hi</p>

<p>Good luck (sincerely, not sarcastically)</p>

<p>If I were you I would KISS - keep it simple stupid. Sack off the light meter, even if you do learn to use it. I assume the T2i is another body? Get another by hook or by crook. IF you can both have a two cameras, then have one wide and one long each.</p>

<p>Designate one of you to be the main photographer. This avoids confusion from the wedding party re who to look at during formals etc. Keep this heirarchy throughout the day - ie number two holds off camera flash, places stands. Number one stick with bride and groom, number two gets details/guests/wide.</p>

<p>Visit the venue, speak to those involved. Know what is going to happen and when (the timings will go to hell, they always do, but the point is that you know what will come NEXT). </p>

<p>Anticipate the kiss.</p>

<p>Don't piss people off. this means switching off beeps on cameras & flashes, shooting as little as possible during ceremony, being sensitive to bride during photography session (the photographer for our own wedding did not recognise my wifes blatant 'I've had enough' signals, and she still moans to this day!)</p>

<p>breathe and drink water and eat - even on my worst day I can remember how to do this.</p>

<p>only shoot what is worth shooting (easier said than done, especially in the beginning). don't scattergun. take at least three of each formal picture (blinks, tongues etc).</p>

<p>night before, set everything out, charged, formatted, flashes in correct channel/groups, triggers ready so you can pick up and leave.</p>

<p>don't use off camera flash unless you are comfortable using it. you don't want to be in a high stress environment trying to figure something out. if you are comfortable, use it, because it rocks.</p>

<p>know where you want to take formals beforehand, have a backup. stand as far away as you can and shoot long (avoid distortion).</p>

<p>back up everything immediately you get home - at least twice.</p>

<p>For all that lightroom does well, it is no photoshop.</p>

<p>When cropping MAINTAIN ASPECT RATIO, or alter it properly.</p>

<p>All the best, let us know how you get on.</p>

 

[Dave Gardner]

<p>Jeffery,</p>

<p>First off...light room was built off photoshop...so photoshop is the standard. There are many things i as a photographer can do with 'photoshop' that i can not do with lightroom. Maybe you want to limit yourself to lightroom...and that's fine...i on the other hand take my photography to another level.</p>

<p>As for your accusation of fraud...so if i'm in school...and i purchase PS. I should give it back when i'm done with school?....or if my bride who is my business partner and is also a teacher...it's fraud to purchase it? You do understand that the reason they offer it for education/government/ healthcare..... is because they know they will make their money on the up-dates of versions?....and i'm reasonably sure that they are aware that the purchase maybe made by a son or daughter or wife, but...they will still make profit on up-dates.</p>

<p>I am also reasonably sure that the intellectual folks at photonet...are aware of this. But thanks for your 1/2 cent opinion. Forgive me if i pay no attention......</p>

<p>Dave</p>

[Spearhead]

<p>You recommended having someone with an educational discount buy it and hand it off. That's not what you're talking about here. Adobe isn't necessarily aware of it, that wouldn't make it right anyway, and it's a violation of their policies.</p>

<p>Also, Lightroom is not "built off Photoshop." It's a completely separate product but shares the same RAW converter.</p>

[savagesax]

5d Mark 2 with grip

60D with grip

T2i

extra batteries

Sekonic L758dr light meter (still learning how to use)

580ex ii

430ex

(2 sets) wireless transmitters/receivers

2 light stands

60" umbrella

Tripod and monopod

70-200mm 2.8 IS

17-55mm 2.8 IS

85mm 1.8

100mm 2.8L IS

couple kit lenses (28-135 and 18-55)

Im sure there is more im forgetting

 

For editing:

Adobe Lightroom 3.X

Dell Ultrasharp IPS panel display - calibrated

Display2 color calibration tool

 

 

Add a mess of memory cards.

[Jerry_]

<p>1. Flash bracket and cord to make the flash-camera connection.</p>

<p>2. Security: what you can't carry in a couple of camera bags -- do you have a plan for keeping your stuff from walking out the door?</p>

<p>3. Kiddie control: you may need someone to watch the little ones playing tag on/near/under your umbrella setups.</p>

<p>4. Lenses: Something like a 28mm f2.8 or a 35mm f2 ... generally more capable using flash indoors over a multi-sized zoom lens. Lighter to carry around as well.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

 

[phillip_bond]

<blockquote>

<p>You do understand that the reason they offer it for education/government/ healthcare..... is because they know they will make their money on the up-dates of versions?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>One of the limitations of the Adobe Student/Educator license is that it cannot be upgraded.<br>

To my way of thinking it isn't alright to steal or defraud simply because the victim expects that some might. But that's just my ¢1/4 opinion.</p>

[ejder]

<p>Primes are not a good choice for wedding newbies with limited photography experience because they don't know how or what to expect. 99% of newbies start out with some f/2.8 standard zoom (or slower) and a 50 f/1.4. This is just the way it always is.</p>

<p>#1 most important thing: KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT. Since you can't possibly do this without wedding experience, it is impossible to give the most useful information you will ever need for weddings.</p>

<p>#2 - Know what shots are must-haves: Since you are not experienced and do not have the luxury of trying to be creative when you are too busy rushing just to get the most important shots in a way that does not look unflattering (bad angles, bad light, bad facial expressions, blinking, etc...), getting all the must-have shots should be a high priority.</p>

<p>#3 - Knowledge of how to use equipment: You had better know how to use your stuff. You better know how you want your images to come out in any given environment and be able to use flash appropriately as needed. Most weddings need some kind of flash/additional light at some point in time. You had better know how to adapt your exposures to the changing environments. You better know how to get shots of people moving, of people standing still, what shutter speeds are important, how you want to expose them, how you want the light to be. You had better know how to use the autofocus system well for different subjects. You had better know when to use AI Servo, when it works and when it does not, and One Shot. You had better check your viewfinder/LCD to make sure your shots are in focus IN ADVANCE of key things (wedding kiss, etc.) because you do not get second chances for many things. You had better know what to expect as far as idiosyncrasies with your equipment, and when and how to trust all of it. You had better know how to manually adjust flash when shooting at reflective backgrounds that throw off the eTTL exposures.</p>

<p>#4 - You had better know when everything is happening, how to coordinate the day of shooting, and get advance notice before any key events happen (processional, grand entrance, etc etc). You had better know the type of ceremony, any special events or rituals, any things specifically important to the client to be photographed.</p>

<p>#5 - You had better NOT just take a single shot of any formal photo when you have groups of people in standard formals...unless you want to present finished formal photos with someone's eyes closed or looking the wrong way or mouth gaping or yawning or talking. In the last wedding I processed, I had to graft multiple mouths, eyes and faces between several formal photos because the wedding party was about 22 people and it is virtually impossible to get everyone looking in the correct direction, not blinking, not talking, etc., at the exact same time. If they are talking or being disorganized during formals, you had better tell them to STFU (nicely) and gather appropriately for the shot. You had better know how to gather people for formals and what general orders are preferred by most for traditional formals.</p>

<p>#7 - IMO, you had better shoot RAW so you have more control over color balance and exposure.</p>

[ianivey]

<p>Your equipment is adequate if you understand the purpose and limitations of each element. Marcus is correct that the 17-55 isn't for use on the 5D-II. But on the 60D, the 17-55 is basically the equivalent of having a 24-70 or 28-75 on a 5D (image-quality differences between sensors aside). </p>

<p>So on the wedding day, you'd probably have the 17-55 on the 60D and the 70-200 on the 5D-II for most of the action, and use the 85 on the 5D-II if you need a faster lens for low-light situations. If you put on the 85 and start shooting at 1.8 or 2.0, just be careful to compose correctly when focusing, rather than focusing and then recomposing, because focus/recompose at that wide an aperture shifts the focal plane off your target, giving you blurry faces.</p>

<p>You might be happier with your results if you pick up (remember, you can rent) a 24-70 f/2.8 or the Tamron 28-75 f/2.8 for the 5D-II, and put the 70-200 on the 60D. This gives you longer reach with the long lens (but limits the 60D for close-up work use unless you can quick-swap for the 17-55), and mates your best body with the wide-to-mid-tele lens that will give it the most use. </p>

<p>Bring the kit lenses as dire-emergency back-ups, leaving them in the car. </p>

<p>There are only rare opportunities on a wedding day to use light meters. In most cases, you're moving too quickly. So I'd leave the Sekonic at home.</p>

<p>The lights and triggers could be very useful, particularly at the reception, where you might set them up on stands and aim them 45 degrees up and into the room on, say, 1/4 or 1/8 power. You might, however, be happier if you keep one on the camera to bounce and provide fill, and use the other as a kicker or something along those lines. Special lighting is much easier if you have three or four strobes, allowing you to keep one on the camera.</p>

<p>For weddings, most photographers have moved to a 90%+ Lightroom workflow because it is dramatically faster than using PS, and does the vast majority of what you'd need to do. </p>

[fotografz]

<p><strong>IMO, for the most part, you have all the gear you need to shoot this upcoming wedding, </strong><strong>save a few <em>optional</em> items.</strong><em> One can spend themselves out of business by over-preparing when first starting out.</em> Bring the T2i as the back-up camera for either shooter, and the kit lenses as back-up (stopped down a bit and used with flash they will be fine). Maybe borrow or rent another 580ex-II to use for the light stand work ... which can then act as a back-up to each shooter's primary flash.</p>

<p><strong>Shoot in RAW mode and set the camera to RGB as opposed to sRGB.</strong> Give yourself the most data going in in order to provide maximum adjustment latitude. </p>

<p><strong>Off-Camera Lighting:</strong> Keep it simple. Getting to ambitious at first can bring down the whole house of cards. For formals and portraits, you can do fine with one stand and the 60" umbrella using a 580EX-II for the key directional light (I'm assuming you have the proper mount equipment to hold the flash/radio receiver and umbrella, like this: http://www.paramountcords.com/buddy.asp ... Plus this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/90709-REG/Medalight_PGSH_Universal_Umbrella_Bracket_with.html) ... then put a second 580 flash in the camera's hot shoe set to TTL for fill. <em>BTW, in many cases, using a 580EX-II in the hot shoe will provide the focus assist in lower light. </em></p>

<p><strong>To radio fire the off-camera light with a flash in the hot-shoe,</strong> I suggest getting a simple camera bracket to hold the radio sender and connect it from the camera's PC port to the radio PC port using the PC cord that usually comes with any radio kit. This keeps everything simple, fast, and organized. Like this: http://www.paramountcords.com/strobedolly.asp</p>

<p><strong>The other option</strong> is to use the shoe-mount flash as the sender to fire the second 580EX or 430EX. This is an inferred system that relies on line-of-sight signal triggering so it less reliable than the radios, especially at distances like at the reception. <strong><em>BUT it can act as back-up to the radios if necessary.</em></strong></p>

<p><strong>Organization of duties:</strong> get an itinerary from the Bride and study/discuss it. Also ask for the church's photographic rules. Decide who is going to do what and when. For example, one shooter with the 5D and 70-200 may be on a tripod at the back of the church or on a balcony, while the other is up front shooting the processionals with the 60D/17-55/2.8 and flash w/modifier ... and then the remaining available light ceremony with the 60D & 85/1.8 from the ground floor, using the monopod if needed ... while the 70-200 is used to capture from the distance. I've never had this scenario fail to produce excellent coverage.</p>

<p><strong>Post Processing:</strong> You already have Lightroom, so you are good to go. Take LRs suggestion to work in Profoto RGB color space ... and only convert to sRGB when adjustments are finished and you are outputting the final files.</p>

<p><strong>If you already have Photoshop, be aware that it can be added to LR as an optional "open-in" selection</strong> which keeps the file in the Lightroom library. This is valuable for certain additional post work that can be done in Layers, or for using content aware fill to retouch unwanted elements like telephone wires, etc., or add more background ... plus the tools for selecting areas or outlining in PS are very useful, and non-existant in LR, so <em>convincingly </em>removing a tree growing out of someone's head is a snap in PS, where it's almost impossible in LR. This use of PS is really only valuable if you have PSCS4 or PSCS5 ... BTW, that PS is going to subscription is a moot point, if you already have CS4 or CS5, you are good to go as a suppliment to LR, so there is no reason to upgrade from there. LR will probably include many new tools/features in future, so it just a matter of time. </p>

<p>Good luck! </p>

<p> </p>

[fuccisphotos]

<p>Work with the couple in advance on a list of the formal shots. Each and every shot they want should be written out with the name of the people in it and their relations to the bride and groom. Once the couple writes out with you the whole list it starts to make them aware of how much time this will take, and then they will usually cut down the list a bit. if they don't cut down the list, just make them aware of the fact that each shot takes a little time to set up if you want people to look good in each one, and not just thrown in there. Go through this list with them to find out the order of importance of shots. Make sure the high priority shots get taken first so when time escapes you, you still have the most important shots done. Have your wife call out the names of the people for the next shot up on deck so they are ready to go. Don't have her have her camera to her eye for most all of this. It can be around her neck. Have her look for little things like flowers growing outta the back of people's heads that are elements in the background that look funny. Or like every guy has hands in pockets but one. This will use her efficiently and keep people from having wandering eye not knowing which camera to look at. She can also play nice and keep guests from bringing out their cameras at the same time, which can lead to wandering eye again.</p>

[max_brunell]

<p>Great advice, Thank you very much. Ill add more memory cards. I actually just sold the 60d. I am planning on buying a 7d to replace it. I will use the 7d with the 17-55. I understand that I dont have a WA lens for the 5d and I wish I did. I will probably end up selling the 17-55 to get the 24-70. I lose IS if I do that but I gain the WA focal length on the 5d. Any suggestions on this decission?</p>

<p>sRGB vs RGB.. If I remember, this deals with color gamuts correct? If so, my monitor is a standard gamut monitor. and sRGB is to be used for standard gamuts, RGB for wide gamuts. This is a discussion all in itself. I dont know very much about it. If I am wrong, I should shoot in RGB and use RGB in LR?</p>

<p>I will not purchase an educational license for any programs that I use to make a profit. Even though I and my wife still have a couple years left of college classes to finish for our degrees.</p>

[ianivey]

<p>IS/VR/VC is useful, but the wider you go, the less important it becomes. If you're shooting wide (e.g., 24-50 on the FF sensor 5D, 17-30 on the crop sensor 7D), it's not a huge issue, which is probably why neither Canon nor Nikon have put that feature on their 24-70 lenses.</p>

<p>Seriously consider renting the 24-70 for the wedding -- it's not terribly expensive to rent for a weekend, and there's zero learning curve with that lens on the 5D if you're accustomed to using the 17-55 on the 7D -- they'll feel nearly the same. On the 5D, you'll have just a bit wider perspective on the wide end, and a bit less reach on the telephoto end, than you'd have with the 7D/17-55 combo.</p>

<p>I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "sRGB vs. RGB." The sRGB gamut is a standard gamut that you'll probably want to use on everything because it's what most printers are set up for. There are other gamuts, including Adobe RGB and I think the other one is ProPhoto RGB. Your camera can probably shoot in either sRGB or Adobe RGB. </p>

<p>The sRGB color space is the most limited, but is also the most commonly used, so most people shoot and calibrate for that gamut.</p>