Post disaster and Chanukah/Christmas rush quality decline for Canon or not?

[a._t._burke]

<p>Taking out double post...</p>

[a._t._burke]

<p>Mr. Meddaugh…</p>

<p>Thank you for your return post. I’d attach a photo of my items showing the “Made in Japan” statement but…my camera was DOA. So, I went to B&H and did a screen-print of their enlarged 360 degree view of the 580 ex II in their product ad. I’ll try to attach it at the end of this post. If unsuccessful, I’ll put it my Photonet photo area and post an address. It too says made in Japan embossed in the outer shell. </p>

<p>Addressing the time factor, I could not find a reliable Canon dating source be it serial numbers or “codes.” One fellow thought he had it down but several responders had serial numbers that would indicate a camera built in 2013. </p>

<p>Except for camera models introduced some time after the disaster, it would be hard to guess when it was made. I wanted to get the sample down to recently purchased cameras from large volume retailers. At least that would have some logic to it. And if there was a recent surge in percentage defective merchandise, then that might arose suspicion. </p>

<p>Also, a Japan disaster might affect the entire company’s marketing and production plan. There would be a great pressure to keep retailers supplied with stuff made anywhere in the world. Also, standards of what is shipped or not shipped might be adjusted for short- term benefit. Here in the USA, people talk about not wanting to buy a car made on Monday. You also don’t want to buy one when retail sales are above predictions. Pressure to produce is brought down upon all facets of the process. Added to that is the year-end buying rush. Neither retailers nor wholesalers stock up for the season sales. More and more they rely on “just in time” delivery which puts more pressure for the manufacture to rapidly adjust production volumes. </p>

<p>If the production line is speeded up more mistakes happen both on the line and at the inspection stations. Suppliers of sub-assemblies suffer the same fate. Rust proofing is not done as well because the parts are rushed faster through the baths giving the solution less time to “galvanize” to the metal. Decisions of what constitutes a tolerance for a “good fit” are loosened up. Parts that might have formerly been rejected for a small flaw are now judged “good enough.” Employees feel pushed too hard and sabotage their work in retaliation. Are you old enough to remember the famous “I Love Lucy” skit where she is working on a candy packing assembly line that is speed up? </p>

<p>Here is the old Lucy candy packing (or maybe even Canon?) </p>

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<p>A. T. Burke</p><div></div>

[a._t._burke]

<p>Mr. Meddaugh…</p>

<p>P.S. I truly hope that you do better than I do. Buying a camera to specifically for use during the holidays and have it arrive DOA only have the replacement delayed until it is too late, by dealer policies is frustrating. It should NOT happen to you! </p>

<p>A. T. Burke</p>

[a._t._burke]

<p>Gentlepersons…</p>

<p>Thank you for all the replies. Although I only got one response that fit the time period I was after, there were many other worthwhile photography and equipment issues raised. That is the nature (good) of Photonet. </p>

<p>One of the themes that ran through the thread was about buying locally or buying mail order/on line. I intend on addressing that in the area called Casual Photo Conversations, as it would be more appropriate there. As the local camera shops close down, choice is going to be limited to mail order/on line type buying. There will still be the timely need for new gear or replacement for commercial photo shoots, events and holidays. Gone in many places and going in most is the choice to touch and taste the actual product before purchase to make sure it is suitable or even works. One of the larger eastern dealers could gain a business advantage by seeing this and becoming the closest thing to local dealers by changing only slightly their policies (which may have worked just fine in times past.) The one I dealt with certainly has not done that with me concerning this unfortunate transaction. </p>

<p>I have not wanted to name the dealer. I was not being mysterious. I simply did not want to have someone read into my frustrations that which had not happened, nor speak ill of the seller in any way until I had at least a semi-final resolution. I thought that would be unfair to a company who had maintained a good reputation in the past. I foolishly thought they would make a good effort rather than a lame effort to make it right. </p>

<p>I now have that semi-final resolution. I do not think the seller will be violating any laws (that I know of yet), nor has acted too far outside their previous business policies, nor did they set out to screw me. They have still left me SOL. The matter is settled and I have eaten the loss. </p>

<p>I was accused of not being able to choose a company who had a good reputation, but I had. </p>

<p>I was accused of not being able to tell if a company had both a good reputation and was an authorized Canon dealer but I was able to and did choose one that was both. </p>

<p>Mr. Ian pronounced “…B&H sees hundreds to thousands of pieces of fresh Canon Product every week, and he certainly would have seen this before it got to B&H's customer's front doors.” Wrong again.</p>

<p>Although it pains me to say it, as they have been a good supplier and Mr. Posner has been a good friend to Photonet and a pleasant and informative occasional e-mail correspondent to me, it was B&H. </p>

<p>I’m certainly not going to go crying to Mr. Posner and impose on his good will. If B&H will simply follow through on their last correspondence, I’ll let all the other stuff go. I have accepted my losses. On the other hand, I’m taking no more crap. </p>

<p>A. T. Burke </p>

<p>P.S. I did not like getting a Canon DOA product. However, Canon customer service has been timely, technically correct, understanding, has not tried to insult my lack of intelligence and has followed up. They spoke most highly of B&H. Although willing to take swift action themselves, they thought that the fastest resolution for my sake would surely be through B&H. I agreed, not knowing what I know now.</p>

<p> </p>

[craig_meddaugh]

<p>Just to update, I had another Canon 5d II and a 24-105 come in today and both are working just fine. Fit and finish was good too, and these were through Amazon. Date code on the lens indicates that it was manufactured this year, but there is no way of telling exactly when it was manufactured. I'll check firmware dates to see if I can get a rough gauge on when the body was manufactured.</p>

[a._t._burke]

<p>Mr. Meddaugh....</p>

<p>Thank you for the update. Yours makes two recent purchase reports. One good (yours), one bad. However, it is far, far too small a sample to draw any conclusions, especially since we don't know the build dates. Of course, I don't know my build date because it was DOA. </p>

<p>May I ask you, what the date code is and where it is on your lens? Or where would I get that information? I had not tried to find a date code for the lens, simply because it wasn't DOA. I found several sites, user groups, and posting areas that thought they had figured out production months from serial numbers, but none turned out to be accurate. Too many people reported serial numbers that would indicate their 5DII had been built next year or the year after (back to the future?). </p>

<p>If you should be able to get a build date from the firmware, I would be interested. Although B&H has been pretty untimely in their replacement, I'm still expecting I will get a replacement. Once you find your build date, I then can find mine on the replacement by looking at the same place. </p>

<p>In any case, I'm glad you got a working camera and lens combination. </p>

<p>A. T. Burke </p>

[deozmac]

Mr Burke

 

Good luck in getting a resolution to this before Christmas Eve. You appear to have been very unlucky indeed. I

understand why you wanted to raise your theory of perceived post-climatic / per-holiday market pressures on Canon

quality control.

 

I also fully resonate with your frustration at an unusually early Sabbath closing on the Friday in question.

 

May you have many more years enjoyment of your new gear when you finally get it replaced.

[alioffe]

<p>Mr. Burke,<br>

I'd rather be not so sure that if a good labeled "Made in ..." it is really made of 100% components manufactured, assemled, QA tested, packed and so on in the country the label is made for. In modern world of cooperation, when even a simple thing includes tens components and involves in the PROCESS many international companies it is hard to say where exactly the thing is "Made in".<br>

Said that I must tell that I'm not qualified to discuss this matter regarding "Made in Japan" or any other "Made in..." label. But as example, I could give a refernce on "Made in Canada":<br>

<a href="http://canadian-lawyers.ca/Understand-Your-Legal-Issue/Consumer-Law/Made-in-Canada-or-Product-of-Canada-Whats-the-Difference.html">http://canadian-lawyers.ca/Understand-Your-Legal-Issue/Consumer-Law/Made-in-Canada-or-Product-of-Canada-Whats-the-Difference.html</a><br>

Regards and happy X-mas!</p>

[a._t._burke]

<p>Mr. Ioffe...</p>

<p>Few products that are made up of more than a few sub-assemblies are made totally in any country. “Made in” is now a relative term. Even back in 1995, I was buying a Suzuki Sidekick four door to tow behind a motorhome. Some were assembled in Canada and some in Japan. The vehicle window information stickers all said Made In Japan. However the “country of manufacture” code in the serial number of some had a Canada designation and some had a Japan designation. The manufacturers could legally put Made In Japan on the stickers but had to tell the truth for registration purpose. </p>

<p>Additionally, my last new car purchase showed on the sticker, XX % made in one country and XX % made in another. </p>

<p>It is changing world. </p>

<p>A. T. Burke</p>

[a._t._burke]

<p>Gentlepersons:</p>

<p><strong>Update on DOA 5DII saga. </strong></p>

<p>B&H return rules contains the admonishment “Ship via insured ground service with a tracking number. Return shipping charges are the responsibility of the customer. We are not responsible for lost or damaged packages.”</p>

<p>I could not even ship the camera back Fed Ex overnight at my cost to speed up a replacement. Why? What do they gain by my loss?</p>

<p>I followed their rules and used their supplied RMA/shipping label. UPS estimates B&H will receive the DOA carcass before close of business on December 28^th. That means I did not have the camera for Chanukah or Christmas (extended family is made up of both Jews and Christians) and probably will not have it for either New Year’s Eve or New Year’s Day. Additionally, those expensive items bought for use with the camera, the “L” lens, grip and 580 EX II flash sit idle. Oh, and the filter “add-on” they asked me to buy (Want some fries with that, buddy?).</p>

<p>I must sound like an ungrateful, grumpy old coot. First, I’m probably going to get something someday. Second, I could have gotten my ears pierced, hung the flash from my right ear, the grip from my left ear and attached a neck chain to that expensive “L” lens. That way I could have sat tonight at Christmas Eve dinner, looking very stylish. Wait! I almost forgot about that filter again. I could have stuck it in front of my eye like a monocle and looked ever so distinguished too. With a costume like that, I could have celebrated Halloween and Christmas at the same time.</p>

<p>A. T. Burke</p>

[henryp]

<p>Mr Burke:<br /><br />I am certainly sorry you received merchandise that was defective or otherwise unsatisfactory. All the merchandise we shipped to you was brand new and shipped to you exactly as we received it from Canon USA.</p>

<p>We have NOT seen a measurable uptick in Canon returns, either for out-of-the-box defects or due to poor workmanship, slipshod manufacturer or lax quality control. Canon does not need me to defend them, (and most here know I've been a Nikon shooter since the mid-1970s) but they deserve their excellent reputation.<br /> <br />B&H received your order after 5:30 EST on 12/8 and shipped it the next day. We issued return authorization with a pre-paid UPS label as soon as you contacted us to report the camera's defect.</p>

<p>I do not believe, under the circumstances, you can reasonable hold us responsible for either your initial dissatisfaction or for the circumstances which resulted in your not having a camera for Christmas and Hanukkah. I certainly regret that these are the circumstances and I sympathize but I do not believe we deserve your criticism, overt or implied.</p>

<p>B&H has maintained the same weekly schedule since we opened, in 1973. We close Friday afternoons at 1:00pm EST (2:00pm DST). Traffic in NYC is unpredictable and whether our observant Jewish employees live in NYC or an upstate suburb, they work hard and deserve the opportunity to get home Fridays without undue stress. Once home, an observant Jewish man has not less than an hour's pre-Sabbath personal and family preparations. That culminates in the family. lead by the wife, lighting the Sabbath candles, a ritual which must be completed before local sunset. Frankly I am happy to explain this, although I myself do not subscribe, but I absolutely will not apologize for it.</p>

<p>There are a number of reasons we do not open and inspect new merchandise prior to shipping. Doing so would be prohibitively expensive and time consuming. Our standard warehouse employees do their jobs quite well but are not equipped for this task so specialists would have to be transferred from our sales departments. Customers rightly prefer to receive unopened products when buying new items from us. Modern cameras have a daunting array of features, options and menu choices. Checking them all, or even the main ones, would be a Herculean task. If we opened and checked a camera and then a customer reported it was defective the question could be raised that the camera's defect was due to our handling, not the original manufacture process bringing the validity of the end user's warranty into question. I could go on.</p>

<p>BTW, you wrote, <em>"I could not even ship the camera back Fed Ex overnight at my cost to speed up a replacement."</em> You could certainly have done so. As long as the package is traceable while in transit (for your protection) and insured against loss or damage while in the vendor's possession (also for your protection), we're entirely content to have a customer in your situation take this upon him/her self.</p>

<p>In closing, I am sorry for the circumstances which have lead to this now 4 or 5 page thread and its sibling, now headed towards its third page. I am confident you will get your replacement camera soon and I hope will find it entirely satisfactory. I have asked customer service to "bump" your return shipping one grade to get the replacement camera to you a day or so more quickly.</p>

<p>Henry Posner<br /><strong>B&H Photo-Video</strong></p>