Tank / hand-processing of Kodachrome?

[eli_fedele]

<p>I know I'm probably kicking a gigantic hornet's nest here, especially with this being my first post on photo.net and all, but you definitely read correctly.<br>

Everywhere I've read and photographers I've talked to have told me that Kodachrome was a very intricate process to develop, such that it was out of the means of hand-processing (i.e. tank) and even the capability of smaller labs. Hence, why Dwayne's Photo was the last to be able to process it.<br>

However, being introduced into photography and finding the chemistry of film really interesting (and being an applying chemistry major at that), I want to try the tables and see if such a feat can be done. It doesn't help having the headstrong I'm-not-taking-no-for-an-answer mentality either. This isn't necessarily to produce lab-quality, perfect results. This is to do so and prove, yes, I did it. I processed something which is almost impossible to process in the manner that I did. A bit of a bonus point for my mind.<br>

If it helps, I'm not blindly rushing into this. I've in the past month done extensive looking into how color is generally processed, and gone to hundreds of niche forums and photographer's blogs that used Kodachrome and who know some of its intricacies. I've looked in detail to the K-14 process and what it entails. Now, obviously K-14 specific chemicals have been discontinued.<br>

From what I could gather, piece together and what was looked at:</p>

<ul>

<li>K-14 specifies a PQ developer (phenidone-hydroquinone combination). D-76 fulfills such the category, albeit at modified development times</li>

<li>E-6 dyes and color couplers could be used (not sure on this one, I understand the color coupler concepts, but not sure how they varied by process)</li>

<li>Anti-halation backing removal solution could be made by a 1g/800mL sodium hydroxide solution</li>

</ul>

<p>What I planned on doing for the re-exposures (red re-exposure before the cyan coupling and development and the blue re-exposure before yellow development) was re-spool the film into a canister with the leader intact and what not, load into a modified camera where a blue or red light is inserted into a lens barrel and exposed. That has the benefit of allowing for standardized shutter times - then the film is rewound, retanked and on to the next step of the development process.<br>

Obviously all chemical processes would take place at the standard 100F (38C) temperature.<br>

Would this (in theory) work? I'm a chemist - the mentality is "what you know can work is significantly different from what will work should you try to complete it"<br>

E. Fedele</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>Well you let us know..... I will just let you come back after you have finished your project and look at the results..... :)</p>

<p><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7002/6528617927_073483e501.jpg" alt="" /></p>

[eli_fedele]

<p>In that case, I may try to get on board with everything a bit quicker. I know you can readily buy E-6 chemistry kits, and all I believe it requires is a water bath for temperature control.<br>

Do you know if Kodachrome is still readily available in decent quantities, and if so, where?<br /><br />(I may need a couple rolls as "calibration" for my setup - those light re-exposures get to be hard - too much, ruins film; too little, doesn't sensitize) </p>

[larrydressler]

<p>ebay for collectors.... And there are a few different types out there... Storage and age makes all that calibration moot.. You have no base point...</p>

[erik_prestmo]

<p>Those re-exposures : just get into a proper darkromm, and find yourself one of those oldtime 10x10" Kodak darkroom lights, and get filters of the color you need for each exposure.<br /><br />You always reexpose the film wet on the developmet spiral, at least was what I did when I developed ektachrome and Ferraniachrome back in the day.<br /><br />Your method of reexposure in camera would require you to dry the film in a darkroom..... respoling it several times, I doubt that would pan out.<br /><br />Other than that I have few comments on your process, you might get color, most likely not.<br /><br />There is a wast difference between Ektachrome and Kodachrome, the first has the color dyes placed into the emulsion layers at the Kodak film manufacture plant.<br /><br />Kodachrome is a black-and-white emulsion, where the dyes are placed into the emulsion at the time of development, layer by layer, coupled and fixed in place by the color-developer.<br>

I have developed KC as B/W and stripped off the rem-jet black layer by two fingers wetted by wetting agent.</p>

[eli_fedele]

<p>Okay, now my next question is if I can't obtain the coupler and dye agents, is it possible to obtain original K-14 dyes and couplers? I know that KC films don't contain them.<br>

And if I can't obtain them, are there any analogs? What are the specific chemicals in use?</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>No the last batch was sent to Dwayne's and they used them all up... Some of the chemicals to make the couplers and dyes are now on the EPA death list. Well thew were for a few years but had an Exemption. That expired January 15th 2011.</p>

[eli_fedele]

<p>So basically, it's a no-go.</p>

[erik_prestmo]

<p>I think at this stage the most fruitful is to discuss specific recipes........<br /><br />I think I have the K-14 process in detail in a german tome on photo tech that I have.<br />Its a frightful read as I recall, but substitutes might exist or it might not.</p>

[eli_fedele]

<p>In detail you say - enough to specify exact chemicals, or at least close enough to get the job done?</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>Good enough for Government work? It is possible... If you are McGiver. :)</p>

[erik_prestmo]

<p>As I recall - and this was some time ago - it was the process, both recipes and time/temp charts. I'd have to check.</p>

 

[eli_fedele]

<p>Well if you can get ahold of it, please share!<br>

If I can get the chemicals regardless of concentration, I could probably brute-force the development times, or at least figure them out the hard way.<br>

And to process KC in B/W, wouldn't you have to omit the bleaching step?</p>

[erik_prestmo]

<p>Sure thing I developed KC as B/W negative, it was a peach, as soon as I figured out how to get rid of the rem-jet, imagine I had all but forgotten it was there, so it was a big disappointment! The film was KC left in some 35mm vintage cameras I bought, no control over expired or such, but I got weak negatives, I now know how to get them way better in case some KC turns up here......<br>

Larry don't discount a chem engineer to get out of the ordinary chemicals, I have personally handled stuff 1000 times more dangerous than this, and witnessed even worse handled in 55 gallon drums by guys with a cigarette and in their shirt-sleeves.... </p>

[larrydressler]

<p>Oh I am not..... I am the guy who developed film in urine. Erik... :)</p>

 

[walter_degroot]

<p>about 25 yeaqrs ago, I was making duplicate slides with e-4 kist<br>

one of the men told me " next year they will have a home Kodachrome kit"<br>

I tries not to laugh. "god & man" the two musicians managed to create Kodachrome in a hotel room.<br>

Modern Photography reported that ' some guy" in california developed Kodachrome at home- no reports on sucess or failure.<br>

Dynachome appeared when asa 10 kodachrome was discontinued. Someone said they even made an asa 25 clone of Kodachrome. This makes it sound " not too difficult" but that company had the old kodachrome machines and possibly access to the special Kodachrome chemicals.<br>

Movie sites talk about developing kodachrome as a b&w negative.-That is what kodachrome is a multi-layered B&W film.<br>

Reading here you will become aware that Colors are introduced as Dyes. there are no colors or color coupler in the film when you buy it.<br>

all colors are added at the time of processing.. Just about every other Color reversal film has the color couplers in the film.<br>

it is all similar to ektachrome or fujichrome. ( there were move films like technicolor that had colors added at the lab., these films were B&W films shot thru filters..</p>

<p>I do wish you well and possibly there is some way you can proc3ess a film with some color in the finished product.<br>

That alone would be a great sucess. If the world was different or digital photography had not been invented, it is possible that Kodachrome would still<br>

be made. These has been no color reversal paper ( except cibachrome) for several years. so the handwriting is on the wall.<br>

Color slide film is beoming extinct. More power to you if you have some sucess.<br>

eith color negative sand c-41 and ektachome e-6 sand ra-4 paper there si a fairly close identity.<br>

one person reports developing c-41 color negative film in solutions intended for color printing. with some sucess.<br>

but Kodachrome shares none of this. It from a different world<br>

maybe some of the retired Kodak scientists can post and shed some light on this.</p>

<p>DPreview posted that there would soon be "another Kodachrome" I think this is only wishfull thinking.<br>

I aonly want some panatomic x ( or ever real plus-x)</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>Walter<br>

You know this is one post I won't have to figure out of yours. Very well said.</p>

[erik_prestmo]

<p>Jupp, even one color in one layer, not even takling right color in right layer would be an astonishing success, given how long KC was on the market, and noone came up with anything as far as alternative processing....<br /><br />But it would be fun!</p>

 

[walter_degroot]

<p>Ok but I suddenly did not get an english literature degree<br>

I will try harder. BTW I did not even have to edit the "mistreaks"<br>

I might add that Kodak did 200 K-chrome in a sink but they were Kodak.<br>

when I showed a car buff that big-block chevy connecting rods were available for small-block chevy he said ' it can't eb done"<br>

he is right of course but this was chevrolet making them Not joes on the corner.</p>

[erik_prestmo]

<p>Larry I remember you mentioning thaturine project, I pondered upon that this week and decided to attack tea leaves instead, it will be a long project unwinding but so far successful!<br /><br />One question, the stench (teas smells better than coffe!!) hod did hydrolysing urine work as far as that urine stench goes? If it did turn into a *chemical solution* I might one day go down that road..... :-)</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>Walter... That is why i love you.. Always Knowledge... Don't ever go away.. You my friend are a store house.... This is why I call you a friend...</p>

[erik_prestmo]

<p>How is it that noone has anything specific to say about the KC recipes? I think the process times and temperature charts are well known, but noone has posted the recipes, are they THAT secret, even now? Kodak should put everything into the public domain,<br /><br />And for the record it was a shame they did not put out kits for C41 normalized for 20 Centigrade.</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>Eric<br>

The Project I had petered out. :) I tested Female and Male urine and even went for store bought Uria. The problem I had was when I asked how to purify the store bought uria. Seems I got my name on a list....</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>C41 kits at 20C were put out and they sucked....</p>

[erik_prestmo]

<p>Lists..... overe here asking for something stronger than 3%superoxyde for hair dyes will land you on one of their lists.....<br />But you hydrolyzed the stuff, was it still *urine*?</p>