Mamiya ZD back goes with...?!?

[kristoffer_klok]

<p>Hey fellow photographers - I am a total rookie in medium format, and have not yet tried working with this myself, but the other day I came across a Mamiya ZD back and the offer was to good to refuse, so now I need a house and a piece of glass to connect it to :-)<br>

As a TOTAL rookie, I have a million questions, but the most important ones would be:<br>

Which camera's should or could i look for?<br>

Which optics would be interesting?<br>

Extentionrings?<br>

Compatible products? (Are there any besides Mamiya?)<br>

Recommendations in any direction (except "sell it" type) are greatly appreciated. :-)<br>

/Kristoffer Klok</p>

[gregory_king1]

<p>...a Mamiya 645AFD. It's pretty much your only meaningful option (especially as a rookie).</p>

<p>It should come with an 80mm lens, which works well enough. It's 50mm in 35mm terms, or more like 60mm when you factor in the crop factor of the ZD back (which takes off the outer edge of the frame).</p>

<p>Manual focus Mamiya lenses will work on the AFD, and are much cheaper. They will provide focus confirmation, but no auto-stop-down. You'll have to focus wide open then stop down to shoot.</p>

<p>The 150mm AF lens is cheap and a good addition.</p>

<p>Metz makes a nice compatible autoflash, if you can find an SCA 3952 adapter. </p>

<p>(Which ironically, is how I got into Mamiya. I got one attached to a flash I bought, and I googled it. "Ah, a medium format camera...interesting". Now I have an AFD, a digital back, and a whole suite of glass.) </p>

<p>Looks like you're coming at it from the other direction, but equally haphazardly. :-) Have fun!</p>

[henryp]

<p>We featured the ZD back in an article a while ago. The article is <a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/newsLetter/Digital-Cameras-Newsletter-ZD.jsp">here</a>. As far as i know Mamiya products can only be used on Mamiya bodies.</p>

<p>Henry Posner<br /><strong>B&H Photo-Video</strong></p>

[kristoffer_klok]

<p>@Gregory King - Thank's - Yes I was haphazardly, as I was looking at a warehousesale of store inventory etc. and they had bought an old school photo-company so they had some manfrotto parts that I wanted to lay my hands on, and I stumbled on this back while searching their website, so i knew they had it and just wanted to take a peek at it - when i heard the price i just had to pay and run - DKK 1250,- / USD 200,- :-D I have looked at the 645 on the net many times while also drewling over PhaseONE systems...<br>

I will try to look for the 645 AFD (Heard that the 645 AFDII should give a little extra, so i will start from there.<br>

As far as the 80mm I read that it was not very good!? Is that true or is that just demanding a lot of the so called kit-lens? I will try to get either a very wide angel or a 150+ as the second lens then if it's possible to find.<br>

Is there a special fitting that I could search for or is it "one-size-fits-all" or only mamiya something? (I am a Nikon user and all nikon since '59 fits my D700 ;-) so I don't have a clue...)<br>

The flash sounds interesting - i did not know that there was that possibility ;-)</p>

<p>@Henry Posner - Your article is actually one af a very few that I have been able to find on this back, so thank you for that :-)</p>

<p>All the best, Kristoffer</p>

[gregory_king1]

<p>200 bucks! Wow...you hit the jackpot.</p>

<p>The AFDII is much more expensive for very little AF benefit, as I see it. Maybe pricing is different there.</p>

<p>Never had a problem with any of the Mamiya lenses myself. I compared a $50 55mm Mamiya manual lens to my $1200 35mm 1.4 lens on identical shots and found the MFDB still performed better.</p>

<p>Wide angle, 55mm gets better marks than 45mm which is better than 35mm...but again, I'm not picky enough to see much difference in my limited experience.</p>

<p>Mamiya 645 and 645AF lenses are the ones that fit. Leaf shutter (LS) lenses won't work. </p>

<p>Yeah, the Metz is a great flash...can work on your Nikon too. :-)</p>

[steve_parrott]

<p>I have a 645AFD for sell with the 80, 45, and 150 lenses. Camera and lenses are practically mint. I am the second owner and take very good care of my gear. I am only selling due to need for cash. I will try to link to the auction on Ebay, but I do not know if the link is allowed in this answer or not. If the link does not post, you can email me from my profile page. I have the bidding starting at the lowest price I want to accept, which is $1875 including free shipping in the U.S.</p>

<p>http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190592494291#ht_500wt_1351</p>

[kristoffer_klok]

<p>Thats what I though, but then for moving objects such as a model etc. I thought it would make sense with a little AFspeed<br>

In Denmark there is not many for sale, so I can't see realtime pricing - kind of guesswork at this time.<br>

There is a 645 AFDII back for sale at approx $1000,- and a mamiya 110 sekor c for $250 (Would this work with 645 AFD? or is that for another system?) Not to many lenses on sale but i have some patience still ;-)<br>

What model is the Metz exactly ? may have to look in to that at some point </p>

<p>@Steve Parrot - I see your sales ad and the pricing seems fair and the lenses look great, but problem is that i will get hammered by customs when buying outside the EU - I am looking at 25% VAT plus 7% toll and a charging fee of $35,- at least! - so for me to buy in the US I would have to either go there myself or get a huge discount to cover the extra costs added by the danish customs... and it seems that you only wish to sell to US :-)</p>

<p>All the best, Kristoffer</p>

[ondebanks]

<p>Kristoffer,</p>

<p>You absolutely hit the jackpot!</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Which camera's should or could i look for?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I agree with Gregory - the 645AFD body is what I have too, and the AFDII and AFDIII offer very little enhancement for a lot more money. The AFD has the best mirror lockup in my view: an actual lever. The latest body (645DF), developed after PhaseOne took over Mamiya, is said to be more of a step up, and introduces some genuinely new possibilities (compatibility with new Schneider leaf-shutter lenses and a vertical battery grip); but PhaseOne disabled compatibility with the film backs, which was a terrible decision. Anyway your ZD back is compatible with any of these, so you have an upgrade path if you wish to do so later.</p>

<p>For a 90% complete answer to this question, I should also point out that with an adapter plate (HX701 or HX702, several hundred €) you can mount the ZD back to either the Mamiya RZ67 ProIID, or the Mamiya RB67 ProSD. These are bigger and much less automated 6x7 format cameras, so all you really gain over the 645AFD line is the ability to use vertical viewfinders, to rotate the back between landscape and portrait orientation without rotating the camera, and to focus closely without extension tubes. The lenses are of equally high quality, but slower, and there are no wideangles shorter than 50mm.</p>

<p>For (I think!) a 100% complete answer to this question, I should also point out that with a special (rare and expensive) Mamiya HX401 sliding adapter plate, you can mount the ZD back to a large format camera with a 4x5 inch Graflok back fitting. This would be to make use of camera movements and non-retrofocus wide-angles. Unlike most other digital backs, which can be woken up by a synch trigger cable from the lens or camera, the ZD back can only be activated by its electronic contacts strip, so the adapter plate has to have matching electronics. There are plenty of cheap "Mamiya AFD digital back to large format camera" adapter plates out there, but they are the "dumb" type without contacts and won't work with the ZD (or my Kodak 645M back).</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Which optics would be interesting?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>For a number of reasons, I mostly use manual focus M645 lenses on my 645AFD. Mainly because I came to have an AFD body and Kodak digital back from the "traditional" entry point, i.e. because I had already used M645 manual focus film bodies and lenses for many years. But also because I need fast lenses, and the fastest are only available in manual focus (e.g. 80/1.9, 110/2.8, 200/2.8 and [one that I don't have yet] 300/2.8). Also several specialist lenses are only in manual focus, like the superb 24/4 fisheye, 50/4 shift, 80/4 and 120/4 macros, 145/4 soft focus, and a bunch of 500mm lenses - 500/4.5, 500/5.6, and 500/8 mirror. [OK, technically, there's an "AF" version of the 120/4 macro, but the only difference is that it has electronic aperture control: it still has to be manually focused!]</p>

<p>But it made sense to me that having a far more automated MF camera with a digital back would allow me to do 35mm DSLR-like rapid-response shooting, if I had an AF zoom; so my only AF lens is the 55-110/4.5 AF zoom. It's a surprisingly good lens for a zoom, especially at the wider end. I only really notice a quality difference to my primes (55-80-110) when it's at full aperture.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Extentionrings?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>There are 2 types of extension rings - for the manual focus and autofocus lenses. Both types offer 3 rings of different extensions. Both types will work on an AFD-type camera. If you have an AF lens, the AF tubes will preserve electronic aperture coupling - but they do not relay the screwdriver-type AF itself, so the lens becomes manual focus! If you have a manual focus lens, it makes no difference whatsoever which type of tubes you use.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Compatible products? (Are there any besides Mamiya?)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>One really great thing about the M645/645AF system is that it has the shortest lens flange/registration distance of medium format SLRs. So there's room for an adapter to just about all other MF SLR lenses. (You could say it's the Canon EOS of the medium format world!). There are interesting lenses in the Pentacon-Six mount, Hasselblad V mount, Pentax 67 mount, Bronica SQ mount etc. which you can use in this way (with focus confirmation and manual aperture control).</p>

<blockquote>

<p>As far as the 80mm I read that it was not very good!? Is that true or is that just demanding a lot of the so called kit-lens?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I haven't used an AF 80/2.8, but it's the same optically as the manual focus 80/2.8 so it should be very good. There is an expensive newer 80/2.8 "D" AF lens, which is said to be a bit better. My favourite in 80mm though is the incomparable 80/1.9!</p>

<blockquote>

<p>a mamiya 110 sekor c for $250 (Would this work with 645 AFD? or is that for another system?)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Just make sure it's a 110/2.8 for the Mamiya 645 and not a 110/2.8 for the Mamiya RZ67. "Sekor C" sounds right - the RZ lens would be "Sekor Z".</p>

<p>If you're shopping for manual focus M645 lenses, be aware that there are older ones (metal barreled, labelled "C") and newer ones (more plastic, lighter, and labelled "N"). The "N" lenses have different multicoatings. Only two of the "N" lenses are optical redesigns of the "C" equivalents: the 45/2.8 N and 55/2.8 N. To complicate matters, before being released in "N" guise, these two redesigned optics were also sold in "C"-type metal barrels, and labelled "S"! Other than these two, I don't think anyone says that "N" lenses are any sharper than the "C" ones. The newer coatings may help with lens flare though.</p>

<p>Several "C" lenses were not converted to "N" livery, but continued to be sold alongside them; e.g. the fisheye, shift, soft focus, and mirror telephoto.</p>

<p>Several completely new "A" lenses also appeared over time; e.g. the 120mm macro; 150/2.8, 200/2.8, 300/2.8, and 500/4.5; and leaf-shutter versions of the 55/2.8, 80/2.8 and 150/3.8.</p>

<p>And then the AF line was launched in the late '90s.</p>

[kristoffer_klok]

<p>@Ray Butler - I am very happy to hear that it was a good deal ;-) What a fantastic reply! I am getting closer to finding out all the quirks of this medium format world - I guess I will start the hunt for the 645 AFD house and wave the extra speed to keep the cost down if one will pop up for sale - I don't know if I really will be working with the mirror lockup though?! - (maybe a stupid question: for what reason/scenario would that be benefitting) <br>

Again thank you for this - I will write down in list form all the stuff I can look for, and go from there.</p>

<p>all the best, Kristoffer</p>

[gregory_king1]

<p>I'd stick with buying the camera as a package with a back and 80mm lens. Buying them separately will add a lot of cost. A 645AFD II with back for $1000 isn't a bad price, probably good for Europe. But you can get an AFD with lens and back for under $800 in the states. </p>

<p>And $250 for a manual lens is way overpriced. Most go for $100 or less. The AF lenses usually sell for around $400...less for the 150mm AF which can sell for under $300.<br>

Only the 35mm seems to go for more...over $150 for manual and $500+ for AF...last time I checked.</p>

<p>Ray's info is excellent and correct. I didn't bother mentioning the manual focus cameras since they add a lot of hassle to the mix. Not to mention that with the cost you'd spend, you'd lose all the money you've saved so far. ;-) <br>

<br />For the record, I've shot my older 11mp back on both 645 and RZ 110mm lens and didn't see any difference in IQ. Now, the image did look different (perhaps due to distortion), so I'm tempted to retry the experiment with my 22mp back to see if it makes any difference with a larger sensor. The main benefit to using the RZ is the leaf shutter lenses that allow 1/400 speeds with flash (vs 1/125 on 645AFD), but at the low ISO50 you'll be shooting, that's not necessary much.</p>

[kristoffer_klok]

<p>@Gregory - I can't (or should i say couldn't..) find a package deal, so I went and purchased the Mamiya 645 AFDII (paid $950) and it is in mint condition :-D Just picked it up 50 minutes ago! Very happy with that deal, since the house is only 18 month old and only used for about 3 months and then he sold his studio and haven't had use for it since.<br>

So now I will start my search for glass - I wish we had the same market here in Denmark - the sellers think they have gold to sell, and the selection on the used market is very small. I am very happy with the price quotes - it gives me a guideline and I will keep that in mind when searching.</p>

<p>How easy are the Manual focus lenses on this system - what would be the best for studio photography as my "first lens" if not the 80mm 2.8 AF</p>

<p>all the best to you, Kristoffer</p>

[gregory_king1]

<p>That's a good deal. I guess the film back is a moot point for you, whether you got one or not. ;-)</p>

<p>80mm AF are rarely sold alone, but ironically can be cheap since most people have one.</p>

<p>THe MF lenses are hard to focus using the stock screen (in my opinion), but do provide focus confirmation using the AF sensor. A special screen designed for MF can be purchased and installed, with a lower transmissivity design and more microprisms. They also make a screen with hash marks showing the framing for the ZD back...but it has the same bright design not suited for manual focusing. Framing on the ZD isn't hard...just leave a little around the edges.</p>

<p>To find the best focal length for your uses, take your favorite D700 focal length and add 30%. :-)</p>

 

[kristoffer_klok]

<p>@Gregory - no the film part is not included and so far I don't really care, since I am digital already. I found a couple of 80mm AF 2.8 at around $350 - i goes thats the selling point in europe - I looove my 105mm f2 on full frame but the studio I use requires me to use my 50mm more the often, so I guess that its the place to start with 80mm for the ZD<br>

So if i understand this all correct - all lenses named mamiya 645 will work AF/MF alike so if fx. a lens is stuck to a M645J i would be able to use it on my 645AFDII as well, right!?<br>

And the xx67 series is a different fitting and requires an adapter!? (or did I not get that part right?)</p>

<p>I really am very thankful for all your help - this is really a totally new world and I never felt so "stupid and happy" with new gear :-)</p>

<p>all the best, Kristoffer</p>

[ondebanks]

<p>Hi again Kirstoffer,</p>

<blockquote>

<p>So if i understand this all correct - all lenses named mamiya 645 will work AF/MF alike so if fx. a lens is stuck to a M645J i would be able to use it on my 645AFDII as well, right!?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes...and you can also play with the M645J to get a feel for the older, all-metal film bodies (although the least featured of these is the M645J, and the M645 1000s is the best).</p>

<blockquote>

<p>And the xx67 series is a different fitting and requires an adapter!? (or did I not get that part right?)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes, you need an entirely different xx67 camera for the xx67 lenses, AND an adapter to that camera for your ZD back. [Hartblei makes an expensive helical adapter to put the xx67 lenses onto the 645 bodies, but there is almost no reason why someone in your position would want to do this...maybe if your incredible bargain-hunting talents found a lens like an RZ67 500/6 APO for $200, then it would be worth it!]</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I don't know if I really will be working with the mirror lockup though?! - (maybe a stupid question: for what reason/scenario would that be benefitting)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No it's a good question. New medium format SLR users are often surprised by the much stronger and louder mirror/shutter action when they fire the shutter. Compared to 35mm and especially APS-C digital, there's a much larger mirror (and focal plane shutter or rear baffle, as the case may be) mass to accelerate and then decelerate. At the same time, there is also (usually) a greater overall camera+lens mass to act as a sort of "inertial dampener". But in any case, if you are able to work from a tripod and take a few seconds to prepare the shot, you can set the composition and exposure (AE-lock or manual exposure) and then lock up the mirror before firing the shutter, to eliminate any risk of image softening caused by camera vibration. The main scenarios where this would benefit are when you're using a longer telephoto lens or a macro setup, and the scene is pretty static.</p>

[greg_peterson3]

<blockquote>

<p>As far as the 80mm I read that it was not very good!?</p>

</blockquote>

<p><strong>Not at all true.</strong> They are inexpensive only because there are a lot of them on the market, but the optical design is EXACTLY the same as the newer "D" lens which sells for about $1000. (If you can find one.) The "D" lens has a slightly better mount and an"improved" coating, but I own both (long story) and can see absolutely no difference in contrast or sharpness. It's a brilliant lens.<br>

As to "Compatible products", most of the digital backs offered by both Leaf and Phase One will work fine, as will some of their lenses, although not the leaf shutter line.<br>

I used an AFDII as my prime camera for several years and loved it. I'm sure that you'll enjoy yours.</p>

[kristoffer_klok]

<p>@Ray - I found a M645J with a 80mm sekor C f2.8 for approx $140 - its the cheapest (and only in DK) I have found around here so far... is that a fair price or no - I had tried different channels in DK and hardly any response at all so far. The M645 1000s haven't shown up at all - but then again all I am looking for now is the lens ;-)<br>

I see your point on the mirror up and now I am sure it will be important even to me then - the button on the 645AFDII is placed nice and visible, so I guess there is a reason for that ;-) </p>

<p>@Greg - just great :-) I haven't been paying attention to the what AF version (AF/AFD) until now - the price is a lot higher for the D version, but if it doesn't show - I won't pay the extra bucks just yet... <br>

You say the some of Leaf and Phase One lenses will work!?! That is awesome! Do you have som details on which ones you know for sure will work, and maybe what I should look for in a description?! </p>

<p>all the best from the rookie, Kristoffer</p>

[greg_peterson3]

<blockquote>

<p>You say the some of Leaf and Phase One lenses will work!?!</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I wasn't very clear, sorry: Leaf and Phase One digital BACKs will work on your camera.<br>

Only Phase One makes (or re-brands) lenses. All of their lenses except the for the Schneider-Kreuznach leaf shutter lenses will work on your AFDII, but they are rather expensive.<br>

You'll do just fine with the Mamiya line until you're making enough that you can lay out $3500 for a lens.</p>

[kristoffer_klok]

<p>@Greg - that absolutely ok :-) Phase One glass has just been added to my search engine ;-) (Yes they are a nitbit more expensive I see...)<br>

Is it also correct that absolutely NO leaf shutter lenses will work on my system!? </p>

[greg_peterson3]

<blockquote>Is it also correct that absolutely NO leaf shutter lenses will work on my system!?</blockquote>

<p>There may be an adapter for Hasselblad lenses, but I don't know of any right off hand. Unless you're shooting a lot of outdoor weddings it probably won't be a problem, and if it is you could upgrade to a Phase One or Mamiya "DF" body, both of which will work with all of your AFDII lenses and the "ZD" back.</p>

<p>But relax. You've got about twenty thousand pictures to shoot before you'll really know what you need.</p>

[kristoffer_klok]

<p>Thanks Greg - I will calm down a bit ;-) I am just so excited and the more intel I can gather early on the better chance I won't make a lot of foolish mistakes when starting to collect bits and pieces.<br>

Right now I am "panicking" over a 4-9 pin firewire cable that is hard to locate, since I am doing a shoot on sunday, and it would be great to try this out "live" with pro models already.</p>

<p>all the best, Kristoffer</p>

[kristoffer_klok]

<p>I want to thank you all once again for all the help and show you one shot from sunday with my new gear.<br>

http://www.photo.net/photo/14514232<br>

I did have some trouble with the firewire connection, so this was shot without connection and manually transferred, so a slow process, but I hope that it was just my cable that was to poor quality. </p>

<p>Have you had issues with connecting firewire from 4 pin to 9 pin (which is mac's only option) </p>

<p>All the best from a Medium Format shooter! ;-) Kristoffer</p>