Mamiya M645 or Nikon F4

[dean_stevens]

<p>I'm looking for a good full frame camera, but I have no where near enough money for a 5D or anything of that level. I have a 50d digital atm and it treats me well, but I would love to get some more experience with film and a feel for full frame. Which camera would you suggest? Which one provides a better end picture?</p>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>This is a definite no-brainer. A Mamiya 645 (or almost any other MF camera) will easily beat <em>any</em> 35mm camera on image quality, and IMHO the Nikon F4 is an overweight lump only fit for a doorstop anyway. The plastic top-plate of the F4 makes it like a heavyweight boxer with a glass jaw, one good knock and it's out of business!</p>

<p>BTW. This is entirely the wrong forum to be posting in since neither the Mamiya 645 nor the Nikon qualify as "Large Format" cameras. That epithet is reserved for cameras taking 6x9 cm film or larger - (Personally I wouldn't even let 6x9 into the LF club, but that's just my opinion).</p>

[dean_stevens]

<p>also, thoughts on a Toyo 45CX View Camera?</p>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>OK, now you're talking LF. The Toyo is a good camera, but again, <em>any</em> camera that takes 5x4 film will almost certainly beat a 645 camera on image quality. However the lens is an important factor here. You can get a beat up old view camera, fit it with a top quality lens and not be able to tell whether the camera used was made by Sinar, Toyo, Linhof, Deardorff or rescued out of a dumpster. You'll need deep pockets to afford that top quality LF lens brand new though.</p>

[dean_stevens]

<p>Hmmm..</p>

<p>I shoot a large variety of things, though I mostly do portraiture and still life shots. I never shoot landscapes though. I am trying to stay on the cheap end of things as I really don't have much to spend. I am also looking at the Mamiya C330 and the Sinar A1. Quite honestly the Mamiya C330 looks like it may fit my needs the best, but I'm not expert enough to say (and thats why im here).</p>

[jay_de_fehr]

<p>RB67. For portraits, it's very hard to beat. An SLR is, in my opinion, the best type of camera for portraits, though I'm well aware of the multitudes of excellent portraits made with other types. The TLR will give you problems with parallax at portrait distances, which is why I traded my C220 for a M645, and then moved up to the RB for the larger neg and rotating back, both real advantages for portraits. There are LF SLRs, and I own a few of them, but they can't compete with the professionalism of the RB. The LF SLRs are quirky, to say the least, but quite capable within their limitations. RBs are cheap as chips these days, and may be the biggest bargain in photography. Get one with a 140 Macro, 150 SF, or 180 for portraits, and you'll never be sorry you did. Good luck!</p><div></div>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>I'll admit straight up front that I'm definitely NOT a fan of TLR designs like the C330, they seem like a complete waste of one lens and half a camera to me. The C330 has a devoted following however, which puts up prices and makes accessories and lenses difficult to find. So my personal opinion, don't touch one unless you like to combine weight-lifting and reverse-thinking with your photography (WLF is back-to-front). You'll also need a decent lightmeter to go with the C330 as it doesn't have one built-in, but that goes for any LF camera too. </p>

<p>Since you've now mentioned 4 completely different cameras Dean, I think you need to do a bit more research and further thinking about what you want to achieve with film before leaping at the first thing that's offered. For example, do you want to shoot mainly chromes or B&W? And how are you going to print or display the pictures? If you're going to scan the slides/negs, then you need to consider the cost of a decent MF or LF scanner, or the cost of getting them commercially scanned. If you're going to go the wet darkroom route, then that's an additional consideration and set of skills to acquire. Remember you can't just download a film to your computer.</p>

<p> </p>

[nickc1]

<p>I don't think I would reject the idea of a TLR out of hand - compared to an equivalent SLR they have the advantage of being a bit steadier as there is no mirror to move up and down and also unlike many MF SLRs there is no viewfinder blackout. However I agree with the advice suggested above that you need to think clearly about what you want to do before deciding upon which camera or cameras will help you to acheive this - but, even though I have only used one a few times and have never owned one, IMHO the Mamiya TLRs are great cameras. </p>

[jay_de_fehr]

<p>The Mamiya TLRs are certainly capable, but for me, their disadvantages - Parallax, lens shade interference, no interchangeable backs, limited selection of lenses and accessories, etc,- all argue against them in favor of a good SLR, and the RB67 certainly qualifies. I've never regretted moving from the Mamiya TLR to the SLRs, and I wouldn't recommend the TLRs to anyone. If a mirror is a problem (never has been for me), a Rangefinder is a better option than a TLR. The only circumstance in which I believe a large format SLR has an advantage over a MF one, is if one wishes to make very large prints, and even then, only if the LF lens is equal to the MF lens, which is certainly not true for the vintage lenses standard on LF SLRs, especially for shooting color. A modern lens on a good LF SLR is a potent combination, but even so, there remain difficulties in syncing flash, the view screen is less than brilliant, and the tall chimneys can be very awkward. All of these difficulties are manageable, and worth managing if very large prints are intended, but for anything like normal sized prints, a good MF system is far more practical. </p>

[danny_wong2]

<p>67 SLR is about the limit of simple to use with automation.<br>

Any larger format in SLR or TLR will become very cumbersome due to the size of the extra mirror box and mirror shutter mechanism. While the Super D2 or Gowlandflex tried to bring these ease of use to 4X5 and above the film loading/advancing(grafmatic) is so cumbersome that the benefit of the viewing system in a SLR/TLR is cancelled out. Also the optic system does not promote exposure automation unless your are using (and paying for) a Sinar DB system.</p>

 

[bob_everding]

<p>Dean, I will go back to your original question. I have both the F4 and the Mamiya 645 Pro. I like both cameras for different things. However, the end scan from my lab which is not a wiz bang drum scan.....just plane jane scan (yes I can do better at home with an Epson 500) is far superior that the sharpest, crisp image I can get from my F4 scanned using the same lab.</p>

<p>While I love my 645 (I have to, I have alot of money tied up in all sorts of Mamiya crap for it), if I had to do over again, I would go the RB route if money was a player, and an RZ for more modern crap to buy for it to make it easier to quickly take pictures hand held. That's mainly why I went 645 and not RB/RZ......I wanted a big SLR......what I got was a big, slow SLR that makes wonderful pictures when I get everything right.</p>

<p>So get your 645 now and plan on the RB or RZ route in a year or two. I promise after 6 months of good 645 usage, an RB or RZ will be in your sights......don't ask me how know.</p>

<p>Bob E.</p>

[dean_stevens]

<p>Wow, you guys are awesome! Thanks so much for all the help. I do intend to do a lot more research before buying anything. I'd like to do color and black and white shooting. As for prints, I plan on using northcoastphoto.com (unless there is an amazing scanner than is fairly cheap). Right now I'm looking into the Mamiya RB67 the most, but I will continue to look around. <br>

Are there any websites you would suggest for general information (lens compatibility, film development, camera reviews, etc.) on Large Format/Medium Format cameras? </p>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>Well, you're probably looking at one of the best sources of photo information right now - Photo.net</p>

[dean_stevens]

<p>Realistically, how much do you think a decent studio camera rig would cost me. That is, a pretty crappy full frame studio, a decent cheap lens, and a light meter. <br>

On the flip side, other than doing shifting techinques, what are the downsides to something like this: <a href="http://www.keh.com/camera/Large-Format-Folding-Cameras/1/sku-LF039990120370?r=FE">http://www.keh.com/camera/Large-Format-Folding-Cameras/1/sku-LF039990120370?r=FE</a></p>

[bob_everding]

<p>Dean, please don't take my answer as gold because others here ARE so much more experienced than me......I was looking at a 2x3 also about a year ago. The format is roughly dead for you and I. Keep with 120, 4x5, or maybe 8x10 otherwise you will be doing virtually everything yourself.....cutting film, loading film, developing....you name it. That is why I didn't get a nice 2x3 Graflex a while back. Somewhere on THIS forum I found that truth, or at least argument for NOT buying that format.</p>

<p>I believe at KEH a RB body could be $300 or so, I would recommend that you just get one of the "kits" that has the WLF, body, a lens and the 120 back. You can add other lens, and more backs and accessories as you get a handle on the RB. It's a cool system and one of the major limits to it is you. So get some experience with a basic kit for around $500 or so, that should get you a nice kit that you can build off of. From KEH a EX or EX+ will more than likely be a camera in very, very good shape. Most of these were kept in a studio and not hauled outside in the weather. Get yourself a nice light meter and you will be set.</p>

<p>Bob E.</p>

[dean_stevens]

<p>Awesome Bob, thanks much! Hit the nail on the head with some point for me. </p>

<p>Thoughts on this deal anyone? </p>

<p>http://baltimore.craigslist.org/pho/2501608703.html</p>

[ondebanks]

<blockquote>

<p>On the flip side, other than doing shifting techinques, what are the downsides to something like this: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.keh.com/camera/Large-Format-Folding-Cameras/1/sku-LF039990120370?r=FE" target="_blank">http://www.keh.com/camera/Large-Format-Folding-Cameras/1/sku-LF039990120370?r=FE</a></p>

</blockquote>

<p>and</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I was looking at a 2x3 also about a year ago. The format is roughly dead for you and I. Keep with 120, 4x5, or maybe 8x10 otherwise you will be doing virtually everything yourself.....cutting film, loading film, developing....you name it. That is why I didn't get a nice 2x3 Graflex a while back.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Bob may be confusing perfectly easy to use 6x9 cm rollfilm cameras with 2x3 (inch) cut-sheetfilm cameras. My suspicion (confirmed with a little light googling) is that the Horseman linked to on KEH is of the former type, not the latter.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Thoughts on this deal anyone?<br>

<a rel="nofollow" href="http://baltimore.craigslist.org/pho/2501608703.html" target="_blank">http://baltimore.craigslist.org/pho/2501608703.html</a></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Seems a little bit pricey. I put together a very fine Toyo monorail kit for less. Maybe $600. Pity I hardly every use it!<br>

Also I wonder about the lens. I wasn't aware of an f4.5 Rodenstock 210mm - they're normally f5.6. You'd want to query if that was a typo; ask for the full lens naming designation.</p>

 

[brit]

<p>Humm forgive any confusion in my post...I am very tired as I type this.</p>

<p>I thought I should pipe up about the Mamiya C330. I carried two of these around The Lake District UK on a Photography student field trip: one with Colour Neg one with Mono. I only shot distant views and would have been using ca. f8-f11 with shutter release cable and tripod. May have been using hyperfocal focusing. The point was there were no excuses for poor quality images (Except 1:The cameras could have been 'studented' as my Tutor described them) in respect of resolution. AS it happened the negs were soft and I got better from 35mm. I also found them heavy to work with. I have used many a Yashica124G and got great results from it. Its lens is terrific f8-f11 and its light to cappy. I have found, as have others, the wind on mech can fail leading to wasted film and a generally unpleasant time when it happens esp if someone is watching you. If you like to see in squares I would contemplate a TLR. If you don't I wouldn't personally although some people use them anyway and crop down to 645.</p>

<p>If I were getting a TLR I would avoid the Mamiya C***. I would contemplate a good 124G. I would prefer a 66 SLR.</p>

<p>Is parallax a big problem with TLRs? Well I've seen (Amateur Photographer magazine) one guy who took close ups of plants using a Mam TLR with a ratcheting column on a tripod. I don't know how many 'nearly' shots he took to get the keepers. So even close up, parallax can be overcome to an extent and with fiddling. One need only to look at David Bailey's old portraits shot on a Rollieflex to see their capabilities. Yes they physically have parallax error but they are great portraits nevertheless. I think Bailey once said because he wasn't looking towards the model they relaxed a bit too.</p>

<p>I also have a M645 and love it. I only wish the negs were bigger - using a large format camera does spoil you. I got rid of most my 35mm cameras and saved myself a Nikon EL2 that I also love to use. If I had to chose between them (35mm vs 645) I would have a hard time coming to a decision. If I had to chose 35mm/645 vs MamC*** I would not chose the MamC*** even if its neg is 6x6.</p>

<p>Sorry brain fade imminent!</p>

[dean_stevens]

<p>All great info guys. I'm going to continue picking your brains... </p>

<p>Thoughts on these rigs and these lenses:</p>

<p>http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cambo-4x5-Master-Professional-View-Camera-Accessories-/170663925559?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item27bc5cd737<br>

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOYO-45C-LG-FORMAT-4X5-VIEW-CAMERA-w-LENS-BOARD-/220845202430?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item336b665bfe</p>

<p>--</p>

<p>http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rodenstock-Geronar-WA-90mm-4x5-lens-1-8-/290606076313?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item43a978d199</p>

<p>http://www.ebay.com/itm/NIKKOR-NIKON-LENS-50mm-F-1-4-with-lens-board-4x5-/200649526748?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item2eb7a4cddc</p>

 

[dean_stevens]

<p>?</p>

[bob_everding]

<p>Dean, have you given up on the idea of medium format and going 4x5? Those cameras and stuff look nice, but I am NOT an 4x5 expert. You will loose much mobility with the 4x5 that is certainly unquestioned with the F4 with any AF lens. Even with an RZ you could set up a tripod, the camera, take a reading and take the shot within a couple of minutes of arriving, with a 4x5 it would be a long time before I would think you would be able to drag everything there, setup the tripod, unload the camera, get the GG focused in (under a hood more than likely), then start putting film into the camera.......you get the idea.</p>

<p>Are you going to play with landscape or people? Will the photo opportunity be gone in 2 minutes or 50? It certainly sounded like you wanted as good a quality negative as you could get for reasonable all around use......as Brian points out above....a 124G is a wonderful camera (got one, love it) for not much money AND you can always unload it as you feel you need to upgrade to something else or switch to something else different or better. Again, my 645 Pro with the AE prism IS my medium format F4, just that it operates much slower since I am the auto focus.......don't discount trying one before going big time into what I would call the large format world of 4x5 and larger......much, much different operation and mindset (and you guys know what I mean)......</p>

<p>With all the different backs and amount of stuff made for the RZ, in hind sight, that is what I should have gotten all along instead of the 5 medium format cameras I have now. The money I have in all of mine would have made a superb setup with an RZ.</p>

<p>Bob E.</p>

[jason]

<p>If you are headed to film,darkroom,scanning,the full catastrophe, maybe start with something simpler! A SLR from anyone, a 50mm lens, a tank to develop, a few chemicals. Enlargers are available very cheap or even free. If you already have a Canon,think Canon EOS film body.<br>

Try it out. If you prefer your digital sell off,move on. If you get hooked, you will be working on a foundation. Start simple. Later you will know about the various formats and gear.<br>

Mamiya C series are built for Sumo wrestlers. Heavy is not the word. A small friend of mine used them. He claimed that when he put it down and released the camera,he went into weightlessness.<br>

I used them constantly but in a studio. They are amazing cameras and lenses.<br>

Nikon is great but works opposite to Canon..<br>

Remember,keep it simple.</p>

[dean_stevens]

<p>I was actually just thinking of getting an 8X10 or a 4X5 and sending the negatives to a lab. If not, I was thinking the Zenza Bronica ETR looks like a nice camera. Portability really isn't my concern though. I'd like a nice very detailed studio camera. I have an AE-1 and a 50d for portability. Also, I tend to jump into things in the interest of saving money and time, but more important my sanity. I'm impatient when it comes to my passions.</p>

[dean_stevens]

<p>"and sending the negatives to a lab" and probably enlarging them and doing contact prints.</p>