complaining about other people's bad wedding photos (was: OMG!)

[wade_thompson]

<p>OMG! I just did a general search for photographers in my area (thru a comonly used photo hosting/sales/distribution company) and I was appalled at some of these wedding pictures. Due to terms of service, I will not post who the "photographer" is in any of these situation but , holy cow!..what a train wreck!<br />First of all, I consider myself a serious amateur, will another full time job outside of photography, who gets paid for photojournalism, events photography and some portraits....so by no means am I an expert on weddings because I've never shot one...and would never think even to do the first one on my own without a pro with me...so at least I know that much... but Lord have Mercy, I could do better than these with a 5MP Kodak share camera!<br />They were the worst you could imagine...from the basics all the way around up and down. Some looked like they were point and shoot camera with the flash turned off, no cropping, blurred, out of focus, racoon eyes, you name it. Snd they were SELLING these photos thru the website to family members.<br />Anyway, I know people are sometimes low on cash for weddings, but geez.... if you HAVE TO ASK A FRIEND TO SHOOT YOUR WEDDING, at least ask a friend who has decent equipment and who know something about photography.</p>

<p>Sorry to vent, but I was so shocked that I had to post something.</p>

<p> </p>

[art_tatum]

<p>I got nothing from this posting. A fact less, silly rant.</p>

[wade_thompson]

<p>never mind. I am not going to post this person's work.</p>

<p>Moderator, please delete this thread. thanks</p>

[Jerry_]

<p>Either you are a professional or not. Being "a serious amateur," is sort of like being a little-bit pregnant, no?</p>

<p>People, of any and all economic levels, will pay for what they think is good. Having the ability to determine what is grand to you has little effect on the majority of other customers. If not, you could simply establish a decent Yellow Pages ad and be responsible for hiring only those who can provide a service to meet your standards, as a serious amateur. Right?</p>

<p> </p>

[picturesque]

<p><strong>Moderator Note:</strong> According to guidelines, I cannot just delete this thread unless some serious other guidelines are broken. While I can understand that it is difficult to comment on something one can't see, Wade can vent. Besides, the topic can be discussed without personal comments, so discuss...</p>

[irusan]

<p>Wade, I can understand your reaction to work that is below your personal standards.</p>

<p>But, Lupo is absolutely correct- if these people are in your market, you're really lucky. I am in Chicago which has many, many amazing photographers and being "really good" usually means you are not "good enough".</p>

<p>A saying that I love is this, "a beginner talks about <em>equipment</em>, a professional talks about <em>technique</em>, and a master talks about <em>light</em>." So, when I re-read your rant and you mention 'equipment' a few times then, in my eyes, it removes any legitimacy to your complaint.</p>

<p>One last thought - these forums are publicly viewable and are searched/indexed by Google, Bing, Yahoo, etc. If you are going to rant on the Internet <em>and</em> use your real name, make sure you're writing something that you won't mind one of <em>your</em> potential clients reading.</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Wade, just remember ... someone hired those photographers. So, is it low standards of the photographers, or lowered standards of the consumer?</p>

<p>You can show potential clients superb work and half the time the first question they ask is "How many photos?" Machine gunning 2,000 to 3,000 photos often precludes putting any serious thought into a shoot ... and it usually shows in the results.</p>

<p>In all fairness, most clients don't grasp that it takes a few moments to do a nice job of formals and such ... they are used to pointing and shooting, and figure if you have a nicer camera you can to the same but with better results ... as if by some form of technological magic a crummy photo will be transformed into a great one. Lots of people don't have a clue that it is the person behind the camera, not the wiz-bang camera in their hands. </p>

[green_photog]

<p>Perhpas, Wade can do a tiny url of the photog's site in question, this way it'll protect the photog's identify.</p>

<p>BTW, if you want to see what passes as professional photography, take a lot at this set. It was done by a low rent photog.<br>

<strong>http://tinyurl.com/3s6ggfq</strong></p>

<p><strong><br /></strong></p>

[parv]

Green, how does URL obfuscation "protect" the identity? The URL at the end will be visible to the web client (as in a browser). That only adds a layer of indirection, nothing else.

[green_photog]

<p>Parv, of course, it won't completely protect the identity. But tiny url is not searchable so when the photo lookup for his website, he won't find this thread. It's just a a courtesy one photog extend to the other.<br>

In the end, if you put your work/photo on the web, you are putting it in the public domain and you can't completely stop people from criticizing them.</p>

 

[justthings]

<p>I think there is a reason that some disciplines look to peer reviewed journals/forums as a way to appropriately critique work in that arena.</p>

[indraneel]

<blockquote>

<p>peer reviewed journals</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'm so glad Christopher brought it up... I was just looking for an excuse to vent, this being the right place and all... and just in case nobody ever finds out: I am the greatest and every one else sucks... big time. I'm sure it's exactly this attitude of mine that gets me bad reviews... nothing to do about the quality of my work...</p>

<p>Peer reviewed journals, the way they are now, will soon go the way of the Dodo... (or the encyclopedia britannica)...</p>

[Spearhead]

<p>Wade, can you post some examples of your wedding photography. It will make it easier to see where you are coming from.</p>

[brians.]

<p>Is this a trend? When people don't have any real response to offer they criticize the person asking the question? I had a similar reaction to a question I asked in another forum recently. I had the same thought as Wake... get me out of this, shut down the thread! Fortunately, there are a few people here, as there with my question, that sincerely wanted to further the discussion and help. I saw this kind of snobbery happen in DPReview a few years ago (I don't go there anymore), where people got verbally beat up for asking naive questions or simply stating an opinion. I hope Photo.net isn't becoming like that. Good luck Wade, your comments seemed valid to me. </p>

[maria_papas]

<p>How about I show you some horridness..... Wade, I feel your PAIN. Here is an example of a photographer who goes EDITING CRAZY. <a href="http://barcaphotography.com/Portfolio.php">http://barcaphotography.com/Portfolio.php</a> She SUCKS as a photographer by every means IMAGINABLE. A photographer who <strong>DEPENDS </strong>on a photo editing software in order to achieve desirable results is not a photographer at all. My point and shoot does better work than the photos I have seen by this "photographer" when it is calibrated onto "auto". <br>

None of the photos in this portfolio are of <em>anyone </em>I personally know. A friend of mine recently posted photos (from this photographer) of a v<em>ery special occasion</em> in her life on facebook. Because I was HORRIFIED with the photos I was looking at I went to this photographer's portfolio to see if <em><strong>MAYBE </strong></em>she was just having an OFF day. <strong>BOY WAS I WRONG!!!!</strong><br>

The pictures in the portfolio are NOTHING CLOSE to<em><strong> HOW DISGUSTING </strong></em>the raw images are that she is producing for her clients. Even so be it if they are friends and she is doing her a favor <em>FOR FREE</em>... She is still running a photography business and every image she puts her name on (because she is tagging her business as a reference for my friend's personal photos) reflects the type of photographer she is. My friend's photos are a <em><strong>disgrace </strong></em>and I don't even have the heart to tell her how bad they are because it's OVER AND DONE WITH ALREADY. No need to break her heart and have her crying over spilled milk.<br>

ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME ABOUT THE NATURE OF THESE PHOTOS, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO COMMENT BACK. I HATE TO GO BACK TO THIS DESPICABLE PORTFOLIO IN ORDER TO DEFEND MY OPINION, BUT THIS PHOTOGRAPHER MAKES IT SO EASY TO DO SO, SO FEEL FREEEEEEE AND I WILL OBLIGE. <br>

If I was in need of money and I said I was a photographer of some sort (like this photographer is trying to do), I would post "photos free of charge" on my website and pray on the mercy of kind people to put food on my table to feed my children. <em><strong>PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</strong></em></p>

<p><em><strong>PS. TAKE YOUR STABS AS HARD AS YOU CAN...I AM NOT EVEN AN AMATEUR PHOTOGRAPHER. IF ANYONE HAS ANY OPPOSING OPINIONS ABOUT MY POST THEN GOOD LUCK IN YOUR CAREER IF YOU ARE SOME KIND OF AN ASPIRING PHOTOGRAPHER!!!</strong></em></p>

[brians.]

<p>Wow, now that's a direct response... you brought expertise and content to the conversation. Way to go Maria! I'm glad I hung around long enough to hear what you had to say.</p>

[maria_papas]

<p>I have no expertise whatsoever... I wish i could show you how <em><strong>RETARTED </strong></em>my poor friend's baby looked in the photographs this so called "photographer" took for her daughter's most memorable life moment. I swear I just didn't have the heart to tell her. If I posted some of the photos of this event- even without the subject in prime in them, if one of you contacted this photographer about her gaffs in any of the photos she would know exactly what event it was that she was being questioned about and that one of her friends was telling on her because of it. I'M NOT GOING TO PUT MY FRIEND IN THAT SITUATION.<br>

There are photographers out there, and then there are <strong><em>PHOTOGRAPHERS</em></strong>. THANK THE GOOD LORD ABOVE that I know the difference between BOTH. AND <em>MIND-YOU-ME </em><strong>EVERYONE ELSE <em>also </em></strong>knows the difference. I LOVE <strong>POSES</strong>, but I <em>ABSOLUTELY - FREAKING - HATE</em> ----- IM<strong>POS</strong>T<strong>ERS!!! </strong>Read it again and again: im-<em><strong>POS</strong></em>-t-<em><strong>ERS.</strong></em><strong> For those of you who need it spelled out: mind the</strong><strong> </strong><em><strong>BOLD</strong><strong>. </strong></em></p>

[mike dixon]

<i>Is this a trend? When people don't have any real response to offer they criticize the person asking the question? . . . Fortunately, there are a few people here, as there with my question, that sincerely wanted to further the discussion and help. </i><P>

This thread is essentially the internet equivalent of badmouthing someone behind their back and inviting others to join in. It's a negative thread that encourages negativity. There was no constructive purpose or opportunity to "help."

[brians.]

<p>I agree Mike, this seems like a very negative thread. But are you saying Wade's original post was negative as well? I hadn't looked at it like that. I just thought he was making a subjective observation. Personally, I don't think good photos don't have to meat any particular criteria. And I think it's reasonable to express your feelings. But you really twisted my mind around this one. Because If Wade was making a negative statement, then the nit-pickers I criticized earlier were only trying to put a more positive spin on things by getting to more real issues.</p>

<p>I made my earlier points based on times when I was criticized for not having enough experience to express my opinion properly. I was right about what I observed back then but more experienced photographers discredited what I said anyway. I felt that Wade was not given his subjective dues is all. I Just don't like to see people's opinions undermined because they can't express themselves technically. My first DSLR was a dog. I hated it and said so when ever I got the chance. Experienced photographers hated what I said because I wasn't telling them the details they wanted to hear. Still it was a poor camera. Luckily, I've moved up to better equipment.</p>

<p>It seems there are two issues here now: How should opinionated posts be treated, and should negative posts be given credence at all. </p>

<p>This has turned out to be a very strange thread. Thanks Mike. </p>

[brians.]

<p>Oh yes, it's about the wedding photos, too...</p>

[mike dixon]

I don't think there was any constructive purpose. If someone asks for a critique, then well-considered criticism is quite valid. But offering up complaints about the terrible quality of an unnamed photographer who isn't even participating in this forum doesn't benefit anyone (unless venting provides some satisfaction to the person complaining). Though to be fair, I don't think Wade was trying to be mean spirited. I think he realized the thread wasn't a good idea, and he asked for it to be deleted.

 

What's more disturbing is having people (who, not surprisingly, have no photos of their own they're willing to share) post links and offer genuinely nasty comments about other people's work.

[fotografz]

<p>While some of the specifics of this thread may be questionable, I think it is nothing more than a backlash effect from everyone and their brother going into the "digital" wedding photography business wether they have the temperament, skill or talent for it or not.</p>

<p>I see Maria's response as genuine feeling for a dear friend who's wedding photography was less than stellar ... or even incompetent. Not all that unusual these days actually. We could go on-and-on about the reasons for this having happened, but the fact remains that it did.</p>

<p>I personally don't need to see Maria's credentials or care wether she is a great wedding photographer or any kind of photographer at all. She feels for her friend, and that's all that counts in my book.</p>

<p>Perhaps, if more people started speaking up, the downward spiral could be slowed and the hacks unmasked for unsuspecting clients who could get a lot better photography for their special day.</p>

<p>I know it is a slippery slope, and who's to say what is good or not. But frankly this is getting ridiculous lately as more Brides are reduced to tears because of uneducated decisions, or ones based on price alone ... because so many folks are doing this now that price has become an overridding issue, and the only one a clients actually understands.</p>

<p>I think this is worthy of discussion, if nothing more than for a self policing effect to some degree.</p>

<p> </p>

[mike dixon]

<i>Perhaps, if more people started speaking up, the downward spiral could be slowed and the hacks unmasked for unsuspecting clients who could get a lot better photography for their special day.</i><P>

But "speaking up" here about people who don't participate in this forum won't change anything. Skilled photographers need to educate their potential clients about why they're worth a higher fee, and clients need to hold their photographers accountable for poor service and quality. Venting on the internet by third parties doesn't accomplish anything.

[fotografz]

<p>Why wouldn't it change anything Mike? It seems to be a more candid discussion than usual, one that makes more people aware of some issues and how non-regular forum people feel about it all ... even if only a few. It's a start. Who cares if some "offending" photographer is on this forum or not? Will they hang up their cameras and capitulate because of it? I doubt it. </p>

<p>Educating clients isn't all that easy BTW ... obviously, the photographer doing so has an ulterior motive to get hired over someone else ... which can be suspect. Non-wedding photographers with a modicum of taste speaking up may have more effect on their friends and family than we could.</p>

<p>Frankly, I wish all these wedding places where Bride's go for info would get better at educating Brides ... too much of it is about unrealistic expectations and equally unrealistic prices for that level of expectation. </p>

<p> </p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>I'm not sure how much value can be found in venting about poor wedding photography that we can't see........ Poor quality photography along with ill-prepared photographers and studios is abundant. Poor quality photography and sub-pro feedback by forum members is an every day occurrence around here. I don't know if this has been a downward trend over the past year or two or if my tolerance for it has just declined significantly........</p>