Color Problems

[andrew_hull]

<p>I was stuck shooting C-41 on recent trips and a film that I don't really like. I'm having a bear of a time trying to get a neutral look from them in Photoshop no matter what I do. Any suggestions? The Angkor Wat is Fuji Pro400H and the 35mm photo of the boy is Kodak Ektar 100. <br /> http://flic.kr/p/9yZEdx<br /> http://flic.kr/p/9yZE2Z<br /> Edit: I tried to embed photos and couldn't get it to work :(</p>

<p><img src="http://flic.kr/p/9yZEdx" alt="" /></p>

[howard_m]

<p>maybe you could indicate what you have tried? </p>

<p>the first is way off balance but you should be able to get it better by gray sampling off the kids hat white band.</p>

<p>the second looks sorta ok if you crank down the exposure and crank up the saturation for starters.</p>

[andrew_hull]

<p>@howard, I've basically tried playing with the color levels. Can you explain getting the color sample from the white band? Is it basically getting the RGB reading using the eyedropper or is there a more automated way?</p>

[howard_m]

<p>I like using ACR for this. Open in Bridge and edit in ACR and have at it w/ the grey eyedropper to adjust the hue & tint</p>

[andrew_hull]

<p>Howard, I've worked on the photo using the method of threshold layer and marking back point and white point. What do you think?</p>

<p>http://flic.kr/p/9z4o5C</p>

<p> </p>

[howard_m]

<p>black and white threshold layer isn't doing anything for you. grey point/color balance is way off. And remember, part of the problem may be that you simply *can't* fix it that well because there isn't enough info in the appropriate color channel to affect a true fix. Or at least that is beyond the skill level.</p>

<p>open it in ACR and play w/ the color sliders.</p>

[andrew_hull]

<p>Can I open a TIFF file in ACR?</p>

[howard_m]

<p>There is a pref in either Photoshop and/or Bridge for that but the answer is 'yes'.</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>The kid and mom image is a tough one where there can be several possible color variants due to color perception errors induced while editing. I was going to fix it in ACR but assigned sRGB and converted to AdobeRGB and did it all in Curves. Sampled for WB on the mother's teeth and edited each channel according to what I know about memory colors in such a scene. The blue channel got an S-curve while the Red and Green had simple bowed where I tweaked section down the scale to smooth things out with an additional S-curve to Luminance and a final Unsharp Mask.</p>

<p>This image is not for the faint of heart. It took me around 30 minutes going back and forth tweaking curves.</p><div></div>

[andrew_hull]

<p>Tim: When you say that you sampled for WB in the mothers teeth, do you mean using the eye dropper in curves or levels? Is there a reason you didn't use the white in the hat?</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>The reason I didn't use the white in the hat is because it's too blue.</p>

<p>Need to correct something I just remembered because I tried to retrace my steps to see if I could do it again from scratch.</p>

<p>OMG! I'm lost again! Thank God I saved the curves as presets. </p>

<p>I hit Auto in Curves and THEN sampled the teeth. You can try the baby's teeth just to get you in the ballpark. I'ld also suggest you try the Curves Options dialog box within Curves and twiddle a bit with the different settings to get you closer.</p>

<p>This Bruce Fraser article is an excellent tutorial on how to use it just for these types of images...</p>

<p>http://www.creativepro.com/article/out-of-gamut-don-t-underestimate-photoshop-s-auto-color</p>

[andrew_hull]

<p>Here's another attempt. Does it make sense that I picked a swatch that should render as neutral grey and attempted to use the channel mixer to get it close to 145,145,145? This is the result.</p>

<p><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5029/5624981141_58638b9d37.jpg" alt="" /></p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>It's on the green side, Andrew, but it looks pretty darn good and full of clarity.</p>

<p>With film you're going to have to use curves to get the right look for getting neutral objects to look neutral. Just clicking for R=G=B most often doesn't cut it mainly because color constancy (an optical effect) gets screwed up and requires individual RGB S-curves to correct for it to get neutrals to look right while keeping the rest of the image from showing a color cast throughout as the one you just posted.</p>

<p>I'ld boost the red channel overall a bit and pull back the blue in the skin region (only) if needed. That road should have a warm earth tone and it just seems to have a green cast to it.</p>

<p>I just hit "Auto" in Curves and it corrected for it perfectly after assigning sRGB and converting to AdobeRGB (this is important) If your image is already in AdobeRGB then it should work.</p>

<p> </p>

[andrew_hull]

<p>Tim: Thanks for the guidance. Would you mind explaining the curves? How do I know where on the curve to adjust? WHen you say "boost the red" and "pull back on the blue in skin region" is that done only through curves? How so?</p>

<p>Also, I'm pretty sure I'm working in Adobe1998. Is it that you pulled it in in sRGB? Or am I set wrong?</p>

[andrew_hull]

<p>Tim: Thanks for the guidance. Would you mind explaining the curves? How do I know where on the curve to adjust? WHen you say "boost the red" and "pull back on the blue in skin region" is that done only through curves? How so?</p>

<p>Also, I'm pretty sure I'm working in Adobe1998. Is it that you pulled it in in sRGB? Or am I set wrong?</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>I mean that when I hit Auto in curves on the image you posted I did this by first assigning sRGB and then converting to AdobeRGB the image you posted. You aren't embedding you images with a color space (don't know if you're already converting to sRGB or staying in AdobeRGB) and so my browser shows the color through my monitor.</p>

<p>If your color space of the original image you're working on is already in AdobeRGB (AND YOU KNOW THIS) all Auto settings adjust according to the RGB data and NOT the look of the preview. If that RGB data is in sRGB or AdobeRGB then the Auto button may render the image differently between the two color spaces.</p>

<p>Aside from that, to get you going realize that an outdoor scene on film should have somewhat bluish highlights compared to warmish mids (inducing color constancy and NOT the flat green filter look you have now) which means the blue channel should have a slight S-curve where the mid tone region where skin is should have more yellow which means you pull back in these regions and bump up in the highlights. Note the hills in the distant background look green. This throws off the perception that you're outdoors and gives the impression there is a green stain throughout the image.</p>

<p>The Red should be greater than Green channel in the highlights and taper off regularly into mids and darks. If you run that image as it is through Curve's Auto button it should brighten and get rid of most of the green. Examine each curve and plot with the eyedropper tool where the skin, the road and the distant hills fall on each channel and tweak from there.</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Here's what I'm talking about. The curves were applied with the image data in AdobeRGB.</p><div></div>

[tom_mann1]

<p>What happened to the links? All I'm getting are "page not found" errors.</p>

<p>Tom M</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Andrew's gots sum esplainin' to do.</p>

<p>Looked at his pbase profile found on his PN bio link. He's out of New York and seems to travel around a bit. There's no photos on that pbase site showing he shoots film. At least I couldn't find anything.</p>

<p>http://www.pbase.com/amhphotography</p>

<p>Tom, I can upload the kid and mom and the image of the two boys on the road if you want to have a stab at them.</p>

[andrew_hull]

<p>Sorry Tim, I was reloading the photos on Flickr and had forgotten that pulling them would break the link. My Pbase account I haven't touched in a long time. Here's my morning attempt at a neutral version...</p>

<p><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5269/5627686436_77a0a820cf.jpg" alt="" width="500" height="332" /></p>

[andrew_hull]

<p>And here's the two boys on the road, sorry guys.</p>

<p><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5267/5626082692_1d66c4b99a.jpg" alt="" /></p>

[tom_mann1]

<p>That's OK, Tim. If the OP wants to re-post them, then I'll have a look-see.</p>

<p>Thanks,</p>

<p>Tom</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Good looking attempt at a first try, Andrew. Did you use curves?</p>

<p>And how do you like your own results? Did you find it difficult on the eyes trying to get neutrality?<br>

Is there a reason why you can't embed the sRGB profile?</p>

<p>Yeah, Tom, I just remembered you can't upload images that aren't your own.</p>

<p>Hopefully Andrew will fix the links so you can give it a go.</p>

[andrew_hull]

<p>Tim: I think my settings are off in PS so I'm not embedding the colorspace correctly. I'm trying to figure it out. Also, I only scanned a few in vuescan, so I think something is off there, also. I've been reading up on how to handle color in Viewscan, so up next after scanning all my 6x9 Tokyo stuff (that stuff in the pbase account is a couple of them) I am starting on all the color stuff from Vietnam that I've been dabbling in. TOO MANY VARIABLES! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :)</p>

<p>Also, I like the colors in the two boys photo. I'm not sure its that off from what I remember. I know I'll not be inclined to shoot Ektar100 ever again. Ewwwww. Most of all, I want to be able to represent some color consistently among a trip's photos.</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>It may not be the film that's giving you trouble, Andrew.</p>

<p>I'm assuming you're working on a hardware calibrated display. That's how I'm viewing and editing your images in a defined color space.</p>

<p>Also Vuescan has quite few film profiles or film styles to select from. I haven't scanned film in years, so I can't remember the ideal Vuescan settings and where and what they are. You might try building a custom ICC profile of the film you're scanning depending on the amount of individual images you have to scan. It will at least get all the separate scans to look the same even if it doesn't look perfect that way you can finish up with one tweak, save and apply to the rest and have them all look the same.</p>

<p>As you can see just from the two images we both worked on each one is going to require their individual tweaks and this can become time consuming if you're starting out with the way they're looking going by the kid and mom image which is way too off even for Vuescan default settings.</p>