Should i buy these video lights to use it with my Mamiya 645 AFD?

[boris_miljevic]

<p>Hello,<br>

I need a little help...<br>

I have found these video lights at local store<br>

http://www.fotodiskont.rs/kategorija/studijska-220v-4x1000w-kit-89/strana-1.html<br>

...so i need your opinion...are those useful with medium format camera - Mamiya 645 AFD (i use 120 roll films).<br>

So my main question is...will i get great outdoor and studio shots using these 4x1000W lights, or should i stick with my 3x600Ws flashes?<br>

Thanks.</p>

[boris_miljevic]

<p>p.s.<br>

This is a 4x1000W Luxman S306 kit, each head has 1000W halogen bulb inside.</p>

[frank_skomial]

<p>If you shoot movies, then these lights could be appropriate.<br>

The fact that you found them should not be motivation to get them, unless you were looking for them and had a specific purpose and use. Do not be a compulsive or impulse buyer. You get only what you need.</p>

<p>I understand it is easier to say than obey. Some people acquire equipment due to some sickness like NAS.</p>

<p>What is wrong with your 3 x 600 Ws flashes ?</p>

[boris_miljevic]

<p>Nothing wrong at all, they are chinesse :)<br>

but I also have to spend 1 hour just to set those strobes for different films for Mamiya, and then to pray that photos will be ok, because i shoot on film, and then i need 15 or more days before i collect enough finished 120 rolls and drive for 200 miles to get negatives, scans and pictures...</p>

[eddymendoza]

Hello Boris, you do realize you're getting into a whole new learning curve here with the addition of hot lights! Once you

have them you'll want to combine the use of both strobes and hot lights and as long as you're using digital it's okay

but film its another issue all together. With film you have to make sure that the film you are using is made for tungsten

and not daylight or flash. I started messing around with using both types of lighting and of course using a digital

camera I just change the white balance settings either before or after and I'm in good shape. I'm afraid you won't have

the same ease of use with film based shooting. If you can afford them and can justify then by all means get them and explore!

 

That's what photography is all about.

 

Cheers!

[steve_parrott]

<p>"and then to pray that <a id="itxthook2" rel="nofollow" href="../medium-format-photography-forum/00YClL">photos</a> will be ok, because i shoot on film, and then i need 15 or more days before i collect enough finished 120 rolls and drive for 200 miles to get negatives, scans and pictures..."</p>

<p>So Boris... how are these different lights going to change any of that? With the tungsten hot lights you are going to have to filter your camera, or the lights, for proper color. You will be FRYING any subjects in order to be able to get enough shutter speed to handhold the camera. Not to mention the BIG increase in your electrical utility cost using these things. Strobes are far more popular in still photography for many reasons. It frankly sounds to me like you need a good external flash light meter and perhaps some training with your strobes. Using film or digital should not make any real difference. I have shot scores of studio portraits with film, even with the Mamiya 645AFD, and I am as sure of correct results with it as I am with digital. If you have to rely on the monitor display of a digital camera, you do not understand how to properly set up and expose for your lights. Sorry to sound harsh, but I see better training and understanding as the real solution to your problem.</p>

[bob_sunley]

<p>Your 3x600ws flashes are way brighter than 4x1000 watt halogen lamps. I would guess, the halogens will require an exposure 6 or 7 stops more open than your flashes, that is a huge difference. </p>

<p>Do your flashes have halogen modeling lamps? You can easily work out the difference in brightness, a 1000 watt halogen is 2 stops brighter than a 250 watt modeling lamp, and 2 1/2 - 2 2/3 stops brighter than a 150 watt bulb. Not a lot.</p>

<p> </p>

[joseph_wisniewski]

<p>Cool, it's time for the "power and energy" lecture again...</p>

<p>The hot lights have a "power" rating, stated in watts. Power is not what makes pictures. Pictures are made by "energy", which is measured in watt-seconds (aka W-s, Ws, Joules, or J). Now, you mention "studio shots". When you have 4,000 Watts of light, and take a picture at 1/10 second, that's 4,000 Watts * 1/10 second = 400 Watt-seconds of energy.</p>

<p>1/10 sec is a bit slow shutter speed for "civilians" in a studio. I have certain professional models (and a yogi) that I use for long exposure, low light level stuff because I know that those people can do 1/10 sec, 1 sec, or even longer. But if I were to shoot seniors, a blushing bride, or a model for their comp card, I'd want to be up above 1/30 sec to get more "keepers" and less shots blurred by the subject breathing, jittering nervously, swaying, etc. 4,000W * 1/30s = 133W-s.</p>

<p>Your flashes can do 1,800 Watt-seconds of energy, at practical speeds for live subjects, that's 13.5x the energy of the hot lights. That means you've got the energy available to shoot at f22 where the hot lights might force you to f8 or f5.6. And, you can shoot at your camera's 1/125 sec sync speed, with the strobes providing an "effective" shutter speed of about 1/400 sec. So you're getting about 4 stops more DOF and 4 stops more motion blur prevention. If you want to be confident that you've got the best images on the film, the strobes are the way to go.</p>

<p>Outdoors? Same thing. If your lights are the primary lights at night, you've got that same 4 stop advantage from the strobes. If you're doing fill light during daylight, the advantage of the strobes is more like 6 stops, because you'd always be cranked up to near your sync speed, shooting at 1/125 sec, where the hot lights give you 4,000W * 1/125s = 32 W-s, while the strobes still give you that dependable 1,800 W-s. And, if you're doing fill flash, the strobes have a color that pretty much matches sunlight, both close to 5500K, while the hot lights are 3200K. If you want your fill to not look bright orange, you have to filter the hot lights with blue gels that cost you another 2 stops, so the strobe advantage is now 8 stops.</p>

<p>And there's the difficulty in getting 4,000W outside. Where are you located? US and Canadian domestic circuits are 1,500W. UK domestic circuits are 1,800W, if memory serves. You can put three 600W-s strobes on one domestic circuit, they only draw about 500W when charging, and that's only for a second or two, then it's down to whatever the modeling lights draw, typically about 200W. You can run a couple of hundred feet of common extension cords that you can buy at the hardware store, and your cords will stay cool and not cause problems. Or you can run the lights from a "bag battery" like a Paul Buff "Vagabond".</p>

<p>You can't put two 1,000 lights on one 1,500W or 1,800W circuit. The power draw is continuous. You need four heavy extension cords, each plugged into a different circuit in the building. Heck, does your studio space have four independent circuits in convenient plugging distance for your lights?</p>

<p>Oh, and Eddy brings up the important issue of daylight vs. tungsten film. Tungsten film is less sensitive than daylight film, so you also have to factor that into the equation. The end result is that the strobes have a 5 stop advantage in the studio, and a 9 stop advantage outdoors.</p>

<p>There's also the issue of "light modifiers" like soft boxes, beauty dishes, strip lights, or umbrellas. 1,000W halogen is a lot of power (even if it can't give you much energy). Standard soft boxes and strip lights aren't rated for that much power, the side panels will burn up. You have to buy expensive, and heavy, halogen rated soft boxes.</p>

<p>Also remember, lights are only about 3% efficient. The 4,000W halogen system produces 120W of visible light and 3,880W of heat. If you have a studio space, imagine what it's like with four 1,000W space heaters, all pointed at your portrait subject, during the summer when weddings happen.</p>

<p>Have I convinced you to avoid the hot lights?</p>

[greg_peterson3]

<p>What Joseph said. And get a flash meter.</p>

 

[joseph_wisniewski]

<p>When will I learn? <strong>Always check the posting history before replying to someone unfamiliar!</strong></p>

<p>Boris, you have 2 DSLRs, in addition to the MF gear. Yet you're having trouble setting up lights for the Mamiya. Do you have a light meter? That should be your first step. Now, when shooting MF, we used to use Polaroids as test shots to check out the lighting. But this is 2011, and I'll repeat it: you have 2 DSLRs. Set the lights up using a DSLR set to the same ISO and WB as the film in the Mamiya, set shutter and aperture to what you got with the light meter, then adjust that shutter and aperture (or the light power) until you get a good histogram, and you'll get great shots on film. Seriously. Digital is even better than Polaroid for previews.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>then i need 15 or more days before i collect enough finished 120 rolls and drive for 200 miles to get negatives, scans and pictures</p>

</blockquote>

<p>And again, I'm not sure what country you're in, but in the US and in most of Europe, we have something called "mail". Regular, plain old mail, not paying for rush service, will get me pictures back in less than a week, no need for that 2-3 week cycle you're describing.</p>

<p>And you've only been shooting this MF gear for 2-3 weeks. Give yourself a chance to master the flashes. And</p>

<blockquote>

<p>i dont have nervs to gamble with chinesse flashes that i got</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Get some better flashes. Seriously, since you're in Europe, look at a set of 3 or 4 Elinchroms RX series flashes. They're about 500 euros each (don't scrimp again, skip the BX line, and avoid the D-Lite line like the plague). Sell all 3 Chinese lights to fund one Elinchrom, and then scrape together funds for 2 more. Perhaps sell the MF gear. Consider carefully what the MF film brings to the table, as far as your "model book, outdoor portrait, fashion, and landscape" business. MF can produce lovely results, and the Mamiya system is solid and versatile. But running two different camera systems with two very different workflows is complex (I've done that before). The Mamiya workflow (shoot for weeks, drive 200 miles) is not compatible with the model book business. What you've got tied up in the Mamiya (with just a normal, unless you've invested in more lenses since your last post) and what you want to spend on the scanner could get your lights where you want them.</p>

<p>Oh, one last comment. You also wrote, when you got the MF setup.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>My job is to shoot various stuff, from model book shots, studio, to creative nature landscapes for big prints</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I do my "big print" stuff using a technique called "panoramic stitching". Six shots from my 12mp D3 (same sensor as your D700) become a single 50mp shot that has more detail in a big print than a really good professional scan from 645, let alone what you're getting from that Epson V700 that you're looking at. Scanning is hard, by the time you master it, you could have shot a lot of "big print" landscapes using stitching. I use the stitching technique to take images that have more detail than what I used to do with my 4x5 "large format" gear, let alone 645, the smallest "medium format".</p>

[joseph_wisniewski]

<p>One last comment. Good lights outlast just about everything else. I'm shooting White Lightning (an American brand I really like, but hard to get in Europe). My "White Lightning Ultra" lights are the equivalent of the Elinchrom Style RX line. I started building up my lighting, one light at a time, over 20 years ago. Those old lights are still with me. I just kept adding more. I still use even my oldest lights. Do you think you'll be using the 645 AFD in 20 years? The D700? In one 10 year span, I went from Nikon FA and FM2 to 8008, then F100 and a 4x5. In another 10 year span, I went from D100 to D2X to D3. I've got a few older "favorite" lenses that were with me through all that. But the one thing that's the most constant through all that time is my set of reliable, high quality, good brand lights.</p>

[boris_miljevic]

<p>Thank you very very much for your time and you answer.<br>

I have carefully read all you wrote here, and now i see more clearly...i agree with everything you have wrote :)<br>

Thank you Joseph, now i think ill chase RX's :)</p>

[joseph_wisniewski]

<p>You're very welcome, Boris.</p>