sina_khorsand Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 <p>Hello all<br> My friend and I are going to be shooting our first wedding in July. The setting is in the redwoods, and the ceremony will be taking place in ring of Redwood Trees. I believe the reception will also be taking place outdoors, and a coktail/after party indoors. <br> My friend and I are taking a film/digital approach to shooting this wedding.<br> I will be using my Mamiya RB67, I have a 50mm and a 90mm lens along with two 6x7 backs. I plan on using one back for color, and one back for black & white so I can alternate between styles. I also own a vivitar 283 flash. <br> My friend will be renting a Canon 5D Mark 2 with along with a vivitar 285hv. <br> So we are nervous about doing this, and any advise we can get would be highly appreciated, specially about using the RB:<br> Such as what types of film and film speeds should I be using with my RB? I was thinking something like Kodak Porta 160NC, along with TMAX 400. Is it necessary for me to use higher ISO film such as 800 for indoors? Should I really try to limit my flash use? <br> My RB also doesnt have a light meter, and I dont want to risk under/over exposing my photos of the wedding, so what kind of light meters are recommended that I can use with my vivitar 283? I have no experience with a hand held light meter. <br> Again, any advise/help would be appreciated.<br> Thank You</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 <p>I would limit the RB use to tripoded ceremony shots and portrait shots, if you've never shot a wedding before. That being the case, I would use the Portra 160NC if you are going to shoot those portraits in brighter light.</p> <p>I've shot in redwood forests before, and they can be problematic because depending upon where you are, it could be quite dark--as if you were indoors. And many times, you will have the problem of extremely contrasty hotspots (the sun coming in through branches while the forest floor is dark). If you are lucky the bride and groom will stand in even shade. If you are unlucky, one will be in a hotspot and the other in shade. There will be no getting around this without using flash fill, unless we are talking about rim lighting with the majority of the subject in shade, but this doesn't usually happen in redwood forests--the light comes from above.</p> <p>I would be prepared with Portra 400NC and even 800NC. Might want to visit the location at the ceremony time as it gets closer.</p> <p>If you are going to shoot indoors it will help if you use faster film--800NC. Limiting your flash use is up to you. I'd still drag the shutter.</p> <p>I like my Sekonic 408, but it is no longer made--I think the Sekonic 328 will probably work fine.</p> <p>Tell your friend to be sure the 285 does not have a sync voltage over 250. Otherwise, it should work fine if your friend is used to the 285. If renting, it would make more sense to me, unless your friend is uncomfortable using a new piece of gear, to rent a Canon 580EX or 430EX.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_kinosh Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 <p>If you each have only 1 camera, rent a backup for each. NEVER attempt a wedding with no backups. 2nd body, lens, flash, If anything goes wrong with 1 of those, you are done for the day.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 <p>Also, I would not be metering flash. If you are going to use the 283 with auto thyristor metering, it should not be necessary. I would be more concerned about metering ambient.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografz Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 <p>Just take your time and go for quality over quantity with the big camera. It really is quite something to see the prints from the RB/RZ 6X7 cameras.</p> <p>There is a TTL prism meter for the RB ... which can often be had used for the same price or less than a used hand held meter ... if you can find one.</p> <p>The good news is that film has quite good latitude for (some) over-exposure ... especially B&W. So slight exposure errors won't be a disaster. In all cases seek shade if you can.</p> <p>Nadine has covered the fill flash. I use a Sunpak bare bulb on an RZPro-II and the Auto-eye setting works quite well. Depending on the scene, just meter the background and stop down a 1/2 stop or so, and let the flash take care of the foreground fill.</p> <p>The notion of renting a Canon digital back-up camera/flash is a good one ... and it could do double duty as the light meter for the RB ... plus allow you to shoot at times less appropriate for the bigger camera.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve m smith Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 <p>I have only done two weddings - both for friends. In both cases I used my Mamiya RB67 with the left hand grip and with a Vivitar 285 with a reflector for fill flash.</p> <p>As far as I am concerned, this was the perfect setup for me. I used a separate meter to measure ambient and used one of the 285's auto (colour) modes set to under-expose by two stops when outside and obviously for full exposure inside.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savagesax Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I'm just wondering about the RB/RZ. Are there any places that rent digital backs for this camera? With modern times I would think twice about shooting with a B&W back. The reason is actually very simply. When shooting you will either get 10 or 20 shots before you have to change film. This is a real drag if you are rushing around. On a good day it will take you about 3 minutes to change film using this type of back. When I was using Hassy's I always had 3 backs loaded with color and 1 back for B&W. Because of this people didn't have to wait. It's almost as fast as changing a memory card. Since most places can print B&W from a color neg I'd probably load that back with color. You can always rent a back, or perhaps buy some. The prices are way down now. Try not to use the RB/Z for the reception unless you are wicked strong. Use a pod as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennifer_spencer Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>You should find out exactly where they are having the reception and cocktail party. Be sure of where those events take place. I always scout and practice at a location, but I am new to this business as well. </p> <p>You've gotten great advice about color film speed. My experience indoors with B&W film, or outdoors in the early evening, is that 1600 and 3200 are about right without flash. I was a guest-with-camera at a wedding in an aquarium with false candlelight, actual candlelight, and floor lights that were essentially powered like a home's front walkway lighting. That was 3200 ISO shot wide open at f1.4 most of the night. Another night wedding had the same requirements, and a late, cloudy afternoon wedding needed ISO 400, moving quickly to ISO 1600 as the evening crept in. If you have a flash, you can greatly improve your choices, and do some shutter dragging or rear-curtain flash to help. </p> <p>You asked whether to limit your flash use or not. I think it's up to the B&G, to a certain extent. You want to get the shot but you don't want to irritate everyone either. That aquarium wedding I mentioned above was covered by someone who must have taken 6000 photos because the place was practically lit continuously with her strobe. As a guest, I was irritated as heck. It was obnoxious. OTOH, if I am getting paid to get those shots, I want to be sure I get them, you know? But the "spray and pray" philosophy is not one I believe in following either. I'd be interested to hear what others say about it.</p> <p>Lastly, your role and your friend's. I know I may be nuts, but I use a reflector at some events when I have a friend handy to direct it. If the available light is great from one direction, but I need fill, that's how I like to get the fill. It works very well with redwoods. That aside, have you and your friend thought about how you will do any formal shots for the couple and whether one of you will be the "boss" and the other one the "assistant" for those? With one of you posing them, the other shooting, or one of you holding a reflector or off-camera flash? Or moving a flash on a stand? Will you take turns? Probably good to work that out before you get there. If you've never posed people for photos, can you two get a couple of people to practice on? You have to be organized for the brief period you get the bride, groom & family alone for photos. Have you two worked together before, professionally?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markonestudios Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>Sina, this sounds like a very tall order for a first wedding. Aside: I have always wanted to shoot MF (more for pleasure), so call me somewhat envious of your RB rig ;-)</p> <p>On the practical end of things, a wedding has so many variables that I would not advise you to do it if you are not very confident about how their equipment will perform in very dynamic environments. It's not the type of event that can be re-shot. What is your photographic background and/or skill & experience level? And your friend? That you are considering MF would imply that you know a thing or two about exposure, etc.</p> <p>I am just concerned that you will have so many unknowns in a shooting situation where there are already so many variables (lighting, movement, personalities, topography, etc. It could make for some nail-biting moments. When I shot film, I was very confident that I knew what my camera was going to do the vast majority of the time, so I was comfortable even in a fast-changing wedding shoot environment.</p> <p>Nadine and Marc, who have far more experience than I do, have commented on the nitty gritties of MF, so I won't go into that. I just want you to go in with both eyes open (figuratively, of course). I would see this as a good case for a couple of DSLRs - Canon 5D2 and 7D? - with appropriate backup and a cache of fast lenses that would stand you in good stead in potentially tricky lighting/metering situations. By all means have the MF set up as well, maybe for formals or the more controlled shots. As has been suggested, the dSLRs could then act as your meter(s) for the MF shots.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_needham Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>Get extra film backs, and practice loading them. You don't want to make people wait around while you are fiddling with the backs every 10 shots. Even better have an assistant load them, and hand them to you as you need them. Extra hands are nice when switching backs anyway. I used a Sekonic 508 light meter when I was shooting film. It has reflective, spot, incident, and flash meter. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Luttmann Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>For B&W, grab some Ilford HP5 400 and Ilford Delta 3200. For color, Fuji Pro 400H and Fuji Pro 800Z. For the color, meter on the shadows on the subjects skin. Rate the film at iso 200-250 for the Pro 400H, and 400-650 for the 800Z, just have the lab process it normally. For the B&W, rate it about 1/3 stop slower, so 320 and 2500. Don't worry about grain. That gorgeous 6x7 neg will save you everytime!</p> <p>Always err to overexposure on neg films, especially color. And if you want you output to be the best it can be, have all the rolls processed and scanned at Richard Photo Lab. They specialize in wedding work. Have them scan on the Frontier, and order the 300dpi for 11x14 scan size.</p> <p>The RB is a beast. It's slow. As I pretty much always shoot wide open, except for group shots, the slower lenses were never and issue. Have a tripod ready. And if possible, outdoors, avoid using the flash. Backlight, and spot metering on the subject skin is your friend.</p> <p>Let us all know how it goes.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve m smith Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <blockquote> <p>For the B&W, rate it about 1/3 stop slower, so 320 and 2500</p> </blockquote> <p>The Delta 3200 is actually an ISO 1000 film so EI 800 would be closer to 1/3 stop slower (but Dave probably knows that).</p> <p>One of the weddings I shot with the RB67 was worth it just for the look on the face of the photographer coming in for the next wedding when he saw my camera!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Luttmann Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>True Steve...but if one is metering for the shadows, I find I can easily get away with an iso setting of 2500 while maintaining tonality. This is with standard processing in Ilford DDX. That said, there would be no harm in setting your base ISO at 1000.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve m smith Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>The next time I use Delta 3200 I will try DD-X. I used Prescysol last time and despite rating it at 800 - 1000, the negatives were quite thin. I did like the look of the prints though.</p> <blockquote> <p>This is with standard processing in Ilford DDX.</p> </blockquote> <p><br /><br />Do you use the development time for EI 3200?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Luttmann Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>Yup, I use the times off of the massive development chart which also match that on the bottle. I've had the same issue with PMK Pyro....need to rate at about 1250 to get some density for scans.</p> <p>Lately, with Delta 3200, I've been rating at box speed, 3200....but processing as 6400 with decent results. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>When I used Portra 400NC, I didn't overexpose a lot, because the film actually did better if not overexposed greatly. Maybe 1/2 or 2/3 stop overexposure, but no more. Before this film, it was common to overexpose color negative film by 1 stop or more to get more contrast, color saturation, and a margin of exposure error. The film (Portra) used to be able to handle up to 3 stops underexposure. The images don't look as good as properly exposed images, of course, but you get an image, which could be worked with, whereas before this film, you wouldn't get usable images beyond 1 stop underexposure.</p> <p>I also used to use chromogenic B&W film--I hate doing my own B&W processing, and if I shot real B&W film, I'd have to do my own processing or I'd hate myself. This allowed me to pair color and B&W 'in thinking'--same ISO and methods of exposing. When shooting an entire wedding with film, you want to eliminate having to think too much about changes, to avoid making silly mistakes which you may not catch right away. If you aren't shooting the whole wedding with this kind of pressure though, which you aren't, since your friend is also shooting with digital, you don't have to consider this aspect.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sina_khorsand Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>From what I have gathered so far, I think I'm going to shoot the whole wedding in color, and then change some of the selected shots to black and white. So most likely I will have two backs loaded with color. I think Bob had a good point in advising that. Anyone think its a good idea?<br /> I am stuck between whether to shoot Kodak Portra or Fuji Pro. Nadine you mentioned how Portra is harder to work with due to the lack of versatility of exposure. Would you then recommend Fuju Pro indsead? At first I was thinking Portra NC 400 for the outdoor shots, and VC 400 for the indoor shots. Since the B&G have requested more "spontaneous", natural looking shots, I will be focusing less on the standard portrait shots, and more on the artsy, vivid shots. Thats why I think Im going to be working mostly with my 50mm wide angle for the RB.<br /> Im going to be using my vivitar 283 with a diffuser, which I am not too worried about because like Marc said, with the RB its more about quality over quantity, so I wont be constantly flashing everywhere. My friend with the Mark II can go for quality and quantity hah, without the use of a flash for indoor photography as well since he can easily bump up his iso. <br /> I have a left hand grip and a strap for the RB, so I wont have to lug the outfit around on a tripod the whole time, even though I will most likely be using one right after the ceremony when the B&G have their walk through the redwoods. These are the shots I really want to pull off well. And im stuck between whether to use 800 iso without flash, or 400 with fill flash for this specific redwoods scene. Im leaning towards using fill flash with a diffuser:<br /> I will also have a sekonic L358 handy at the time of the wedding. Would this light meter work out well with my outfit? I heard you can plug the 283 into this light meter via PC cord to get a reading. Or, for the redwoods scene with solely the B&G, do you think I would be better off metering the background, stopping down 1-2 stops, and using the 283's less powerful flash mode (with a diffuser) to fill the foreground and B&G? I envision that this would make the B&G have more contrast with the background/scenery. <br /> I very much admire the work of Twin Lens photography, a couple who use digital/medium format, and thats the kind of work I am striving to get. <br /> Let me know what you think:<br /> <a href="http://www.twinlensimages.com/">http://www.twinlensimages.com/</a></p> <p>I cannot express my gratitude for all of you who have responded to my request for advise.<br /> Thank You.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Lewis1664881697 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>Keep in mind that manually focusing the RB with people moving in an area that lacks light is going to be a challenge. Since you will mostly be using the 50mm lens, that will help with depth of field.<br> The best thing I can suggest: PRACTICE. Go outside and shoot photos with your RB, the Vivitar flash and light meter. You're already going to be working at a slow pace with this equipment, you don't want to be fumbling and questioning yourself, or worse yet, make mistakes when shooting a wedding.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>Sina--I think you misunderstood what I was saying about Portra. I believe it has a lot of underexposure latitude--more than most films. Before switching to Portra I was using Fuji NPH, and it was a good film, but I liked Portra's neutral tones and delicate handling of detail without having to overexpose the heck out of it to avoid loss of quality due to underexposure issues.</p> <p>I personally would switch the two, if I were to use both NC and VC. I'd use VC outside. I believe it was designed to kind of compensate for shaded outdoor shooting, where color seems to be grayed down a little (I forget why--there is a reason).</p> <p>As for shooting all color and then converting--my personal take on this goes further than just the film itself. I love film, but only if the resulting prints are printed from film by a good (human) printer and not digitized by labs. If you scan yourself with a very good film scanner, that is one thing, but if you just have your typical lab scan it, I don't believe the 'wonderfulness' of film survives through the process. I haven't used Richard's Lab, so I can't comment on whether they are good that way. So I personally would not digitize the film unless I could be assured the scans would be done very well. Then it would be OK to convert to B&W. However, if I wanted B&W at all, I personally would shoot B&W film. To me, even chromogenic B&W film is better than scan and convert. But this is my opinion. Perhaps you should shoot some and experiment before deciding.</p> <p>The Twin Lens outfit you linked to is wonderful indeed. Very nice. I personally would not push the ISO as consistently as they do, but I don't have the same kind of clientele as they do. Obviously, their clientele is into the 'art' part of photography, and that's great--wish I could do that--but my clientele is a bit less 'arty'. My clients might ask why their faces are so dark, or why I took pictures of the backs of guest's heads. :^)</p> <p>I would ask what kind of previous photographic experience you have? I can see using the RB, as I said, for tripoded shots of the ceremony and portraits, even arty 'walk through the redwoods' shots, but for indoor, at night, dark reception shots, without flash--you will struggle, I think. When I shot weddings with medium format (twin lens Mamiya and Hasselblad) I pretty much used off camera flashes along with on camera, zone focus and lots of shutter drag. You can too, but it takes some getting used to, and if you haven't ever shot this way, it needs to be learned and practiced. Also, you can get spontaneous shots with medium format, but it requires a bit different technique. If I were you, I'd leave that to your friend with the 5DII. It is just plain easier.</p> <p>I mention the tripod because the RB has a pretty big mirror that swings around. Be sure you understand that even on a tripod, you can get vibration at certain shutter speeds, and be sure to understand your hand holding limits. I can actually shoot at slower speeds with my twin lens camera than the Hasselblad (and even 35mm), because of the lack of a mirror.</p> <p>I think many of the Twin Lens shots during dark receptions are taken without on camera flash, and many are taken without flash, but some have off camera flash. It is also a technique that requires some practice, so unless your friend has this technique down, I'd suggest he use on camera flash, if diffused, just as a safety precaution. He will also need to rent some wide aperture primes if he is going to try going flashless in a dark reception hall.</p> <p>For your redwood walk, it is really going to depend on the ambient light. As I said above, it could be really dark, or very spotty and contrasty, or mostly sunny--depends on where in the forest you are and whether there are clearings, what time of day, etc. I would be prepared with fill flash in any case, even if you end up not using it. Or using some with flash and some without, depending upon the situation. I would encourage you to actually see the location at a time closer to the wedding.</p> <p>As for your fill flash plan, it would really depend on the actual lighting conditions. The plan Marc outlines works well for a balanced ambient to subject/flash scene. Your plan is good if the background is brighter than the subjects. Unfortunately, there isn't one plan that will work all the time.</p> <p>Again, I wouldn't meter the flash, unless you are using manual flash only. Also, a diffuser isn't much use outside if you are using the flash only as fairly ramped down fill.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>Forgot to say, that Sekonic 358 should work well.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Luttmann Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>Sina,</p> <p>The guys at Twin Lens Life are not a couple....they are twin brothers. And as far as I know, they don't use digital</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>Hmmm...maybe that's why you see noise in some of the pix--the images are scanned...</p> <p>Dave, if they don't use digital, are they using 35mm film?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcole Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>Sina,<br> Don't take offense, but from what I'm reading, it seems like there is quite a large knowledge deficit here in a variety of subjects, including film, flash, and exposure. Since you have time, you really need to practice with this camera, and with a variety of films till you know what you're doing. Even though you're using a 6x7 professional camera, you could easily come up with WORSE results than someone with a low-level DSLR. Before you start, you should know approximate exposure values in common situations, such as bright sun and for portraits with the sun at the subject's back. I can tell you those for 160 film without even looking at a meter. Without this basic familiarity with light, you won't even know if you've made an exposure error. And you CANNOT afford to underexpose or experiment with 10 shots on a magazine.<br> Are you sure you want to go there?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markonestudios Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>Aside: Dave, check the link; Twin Lens is actually a husband & wife team.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sina_khorsand Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 <p>Twin Lens has been known to use a mamiya C330, and possibly even an RB. I dont know about 35mm though. <br> I have been doing MF photography for some time now, and been using my RB for under a year. I run a little darkroom out of my bathroom, and I have experimented with plenty different types of 400 films. I have never really had a light meter, so I have gotten used to determining the exposure levels myself, and I am pretty proficient at doing it in most outdoor, sunlit settings. Im not great at metering ambient and indoor lighting off the top of my head, thats why I am renting the sekonic 358 to get accurate results. I have only been working with my flash for a few months now, and I havent really practiced fill flashing before. But I have some time to get used to fill flashing with the film I will be using, since the wedding is in July. <br> The couple that hired us know what they're getting themselves into. I posted an ad on craigslist for affordable wedding photographers that wants to shoot their first wedding to build a portfolio. Being my first wedding, I am only looking to make enough money just to cover the costs of the rental equipment. <br> Im pretty confident that with my partner's help using the Mark II, along with another friend filming, and me using the RB we can surpass the B&G's expectations. <br> I just wanted to cover all the corners, and chat with more experienced photographers before I make any decisions. <br> Thank You.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now