are MF cameras going to be any cheaper?

[moosekaka_lim]

<p>alright, i know there are other threads about whether its time to jump into MF, i just like to know, looking at the used prices on KEH, the RB,RZ systems are really cheap (<500 for camera and lens in BGN). But they are really heavy to use outdoors. Hasselblads are lighter but still in the $1000+ range.<br>

My question is, are the prices likely going to get any cheaper or will it actually increase as supply declines ? will hasselblads get any cheaper or are they like leica's? i'm talking about within the next one to two years as that is my timeframe for getting one. should i be concerned that the drop in price is temporary as the market is glutted?<br>

i just purchased quite a bit of 35mm topline (nikon f100 etc) equipment used and am enjoying them, though not so much the scanning. but i i would like to see slides in 6x7 size someday and would move to purchase an RZ system quickly if the current prices are once in a lifetime?</p>

[ondebanks]

<p>It's a bit like asking where the stock market will be in 1-2 years...who knows?</p>

<p>My impression is that prices on "classic" MF cameras (like RB/RZ, older 645s, Hassy V series, Bronicas) have been relatively stable for the past 2 - 3 years. Used prices on more current designs from the past 10-12 years (like the digital-compatible 645s) have fallen somewhat, in line with normal depreciation and the appearance of newer upgraded models. (Just as whenever Canon releases a new 1D Mark "X", all the previous 1D models edge lower in price.)</p>

<p>So my 'crystal ball' indicates that MF gear prices will probably not change much over the timeframe you are speaking of. The current prices would only be "once in a lifetime" if there was a sudden and temporary glut being dumped on the market, but I don't think that is the case for the RZ. The initial stampede of professionals away from MF film and into DSLRs happened several years ago, and I get the impression that the turnover is steadier now.</p>

[iangillett]

<p>I expect that Hasselblad prices - certianly for the more modern equipment - are likely to remain strong for quite a while. Many serious amateurs, myself included, are buying up lenses, backs, etc because they were what we dreamed of owning when we were younger and now we can afford them because the mainstream professionals are moving into digital, either 35 mm format or medium format. You can also fit a digital back to the Hasselblad V series and that will keep the prices strong. RB's and RZ's can be picked up relatively cheaply and I have built up a reasonable RZ system over the years. I don't think the prices will get much cheaper for these simply because those people that bought them new, or newish, are likely to drop so much on the selling price that they are considering hanging on to them just in case they feel the urge to shoot film again; of course you can get an RZ Pro II D which will interface more easily with a digitial back.<br>

Viewing a 6x7 slide is wonderful; projecting it is even better!</p>

 

[marc_batters]

<p>My personal observation regarding prices of certain select gear for the RZ over the past 3-4 years;<br /> prices are starting to inch upwards. <br /> Could be the result of the global economy, could be a weaker dollar, or maybe some of the originally rarer items for the RZ are now even fewer, especially ones in better condition.</p>

<p>Tilt shift adapters that were once $300-$400, are now hard to find, except new.<br /> ULD 50mm, and APO 210mm lenses are about 20-30% more now then a few years ago.<br /> 220 film backs are only just starting to come down in price, as more people find that 220 backs are basically useless,<br /> now that so few emulsions are offered in 220. <br /> I can't foresee 220 to last much longer; surprised it has lasted this long.</p>

<p>The old saying, There's no Time Like the Present, now IS the time to buy into medium format. <br /> If not for speculating future price shifts, but for being able to still find quality pieces before they are gone.</p>

<p>Quality, affordable scanning of MF film, now that's another story. <br /> That ship has sailed, (or is sounding it's last call), at least until a flood of affordable used Imacon's hit the market.<br /> I can dream, can't I?</p>

[BrianS1664879711]

<p>In general, I think the glut happened a few years ago and is over when most studios and photogs transitioned from MF to Digital. In the future it is likely that there will be occasional good deals as the equipment turns over but I suspect things will remain stable.</p>

[nickc1]

<p>I'm with Marc here - my personal, unverifiable, observation is that accepted 'quality' gear is getting more expensive. Hasselblad and Mamiya prices are the examples in MF - in 35mm Nikon f100s are on the up f301 and the like are still slipping. The same seems to apply to top of the range Canon EOS film cameras, while the prices of lower spec models are still falling steadily.<br>

My advice is to wait for the camera in the condition you want - its price won't change that much, but it is not worth rushing out and buying a less than perfect example just because the price might be going up a bit.</p>

<p> </p>

[paul ron]

<p>If they get any cheaper, you'll get em free.<br>

The mechanical cameras will be the last men standing when all the electronic MF versions are in the land fills.<br>

AS long as you keep buying mechanical RB67s I'll keep em on the road. <br /><br />BTW if you are throwing that old dead non-C lens out, I'll take it? I can use the parts.</p>

<p> </p>

[moosekaka_lim]

<p>so,does that mean i should NOT buy an RZ (as that has an electronic shutter?)<br>

honestly i'm confused and torn between all the MF formats, i'm real tempted by the prices of RB/RZ but not the tank like dimensions (i shoot tripod, but go for long nature hikes). I also like the Fuji GA645 pro, it seems just like a modern SLR but in a MF rangefinder! then there is the GW690. so many choices.....confused.</p>

[sfcole]

<p>I have been tracking Mamiya 6 prices for several years, and they have been fairly stable. When a glut appears on ebay or at KEH, prices dip a bit, but overall they remain consistent. The same with Hasselblad and Rolleiflex.<br>

Occasionally, a new technology can force prices up. For example, Leica lens prices have gone up, possibly driven by demand from M9/M8 users. There are a couple of dedicated MF scanners due to hit the market within the year (Primefilm and Reflecta), and these could reinvigorate the demand for MF.</p>

[gareth_williams2]

<p>I am with Ray- like trying to outguess the stock market! There are a couple of important factors that will affect the global trend though:<br>

1. Continued availability of a variety of 120 films- particularly transparency films.<br>

2. Continued availability of high quality processing labs and top quality scanners or firms offering top quality scans.<br>

3. Development of the MF Digital format. At present this is very promising and it is good to see manufacturers having the confidence to develop ever better backs. This will result in more and better used backs coming onto the market and encourage the use of MF systems. I think that the 6x4.4 size is secure and maybe the 6x6 but I do have concerns about 6x7 because there seems little advantage in having a bulkier camera like the RZ digital- however good- unless one has the advantage of a larger sensor and an affordable 6x7 sensor seems a long long way off unless we have a real breakthrough in sensor manufacture!Another problem with the RZ is the lack of a true wide angle for the digital format. The 50mm becomes about the same as a 35mm lens (Leica equiv) whereas on the RZ 120 film it equates to a 25mm. The 37mm is useless as it has unacceptable image curvature. Mamiya do need a high quality lens of about 30mm for the RZ.<br>

Another possibility would be the development of a smaller reasonably priced body operating in the 6x4.5 format but capable of utilising the RZ lenses- over to you Mamiya!</p>

[jbcrane_gallery]

<p>All I know is, I just picked up a $4,700 lens for about $600 and after spending a fortune on my digital kit from 2006 through 2010, that equates to heaven. And regarding Marc's point on MF scanning... a little food for thought: I just did a apples-to-apples scan between my Epson V500 and a drum scan from West Coast Imaging. Both were outstanding. As suspected, the West Coast Imaging drum scan was of course higher quality, but I was truly surprised at how well the little $200 scanner did in comparison. All that to say, I'll be pulling perfectly adequate pedestrian MF scans with very little cost or trouble from the comfort of my own home, and drum-scan the premium images, for quite some time to come. In agreement with Marc again on "no time like the present..." My vote would be to just dive in. Have fun.<br>

John B. Crane</p>

[jim_peterson2]

<p>If you are looking for something smaller than an RB/RZ for hiking and landscape I would suggest either the Asahi Pentax 6x7 or the Bronica GS-1 (assuming that you want to go with a 6x7 frame) If you want to go square (6x6) the Bronica SQ-A is very nice and easy to transport, and also costs much less than a Hassy. If you are ok with 645, there are lots of options. I have the Bronica ETRs and Mamiya Pro TL and used to have the Pentax 645 (orig). I would recommend all of them. The Bronica and Mamiya are modular so you can choose whether to go with a powered grip and AE finder which will make it feel and work like an SLR, or you can go with a hand crank and WLF which will make it feel and work like something much more traditional. <br>

All of my MF cameras have cost less than $200 (except for the brand new RB). I don't see any point in waiting for lower prices!</p>

[marc_batters]

<p>Moosekaka, Your question/decision, as to whether or not, to buy a RB or RZ, is yours and yours alone!<br /> You have to weigh the advantages, and dis-advantages of each system yourself.</p>

<p>Paul, and many others, often express their own bias towards favoring the all mechanical RB. <br /> Sometimes, simply on the sole fact that the RB doesn't require a battery, but the RZ does.</p>

<p>Let me play Frankenstein's Monster for a moment. "Electricity not all Bad...Electricity...Good!"</p>

<p>If you buy into a used RZ system, especially either the Pro II or IId, you will have a much newer body then a used RB. The original RZ-Pro was simultaneously produced alongside the RB-ProSD.</p>

<p>Do you want to acquire the tilt-shift adapter?<br /> Do you want the option of automatic exposure compensation, and metering control?<br /> Do you want the added accuracy (some say), of electrically controlled shutters?<br /> Do you want the assurance that all of the lenses for your system are multi-coated?<br /> Do you want just one lever to activate the film advance, and simultaneously cock the shutter?<br /> Do you want the ability to have a power winder, to cock the shutter, and wind all of your film backs?<br /> Do you want the ability to use lenses from both systems, (RB and RZ)?<br /> Do you want a camera body that is a little lighter, (only a very little bit lighter)? <br /> Do you want a camera that can more easily transition to digital in the future?<br /> Do you want a camera that has a greater, (more readily available), new parts supply.<br /> Do you want a camera that you can activate with an available wireless remote?</p>

<p>If you answered yes to many of these questions, then maybe the RZ is for you.</p>

<p>If you shoot often in below freezing weather, where batteries can fail, and you are afraid of electricity in the 21st Century, or you want to save a little money over the whole system cost, then a RB may suit your needs just fine.</p>

[moosekaka_lim]

<p>well, my concern about RZ is the reliability of electronic shutters,seeing how these camera tend to be heavily used, and it IS a bigger shutter than a 35mm!<br>

actually having surveyed the MF field i'm now confused as there are so many choices, and i'm restricting myself to 6x7! (only 645 i have an eye for is the GA645 pro in 60mm, that looks like a poor man's mamiya 7 to me).<br>

i would like to go large neg in MF, seeing how i'm scanning my 35mm @2900 dpi on a coolscan iv, and plan to scan my 120 film someday with an epson v500 at 2400 dpi (which really is just 1600 dpi optically). at 1600 dpi, a 645 neg scan is 'only' 9.2 megapixel, albeit at a narrower crop compared to 35mm. I'm getting 11 megapixels scans from my 35mm @2900 dpi, so i think i would need at least a 6x7 to really see the difference with 120 film (i shoot only color).</p>

[jim_peterson2]

<p>RB and RZ are actually probably more suited to studio work than field work. The close focus ability, the revolving back etc. are beneficial anywhere but most significantly in the studio. Having said that, I've been using my RB in the field and love it.<br>

Both the Pentax and the Bronica are more portable and can even be handheld, although its a bit of a stretch with the Pentax. But the Bronica is actually quite easy to handhold. The biggest difference is that the Pentax is a focal plane shutter and mirror slap is huge so MLU gets used for almost every shot. The Bronica is a lens shutter, thus eliminating the need for MLU.</p>

[Paul Lewis1664881697]

<p>"Electricity.... Good!" hahahaha</p>

[david_henderson]

<blockquote>

<p>The Bronica is a lens shutter, thus eliminating the need for MLU.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I don't agree with the second half of that at all. If MLU is unnecessary as a function of camera design, why did Bronica go to the trouble of including that feature? Lots of good reasons to think about a Bronica. Not having to use MLU isn't one of them.</p>

<p>Think carefully about very cheap MF cameras. All these cameras were made to be serviced occasionally and very few of them are. There's a lot of cameras on the market with a functional defect or are likely to have one soon. Provenance and a decent warranty or at least the ability to try before you buy are worth a lot in these circumstances. The difference between a cheap price and an expensive price can easily be offset by one simple repair. Just do your best to get a good example of whatever you do choose to buy. In anybody's terms these MF systems are very cheap today referenced against the quality they can deliver. The time to buy is when you know what you want and when you find an example in good shape.</p>

<p> </p>

[moosekaka_lim]

<p>alright, so bronica gs-1 seems to be very tempting, however i see on KEH they sell bodies without waistlevel or prisms....not having MF experience before....how useful are they without a waistlevel finder? would a waistlevel finder be useful on a tripod with landscapes? i dont have a light meter, however i plan to initially meter with my trusty nikon N70 film slr and a 50mm 1.8D.<br>

<br /> also, if i were to just buy ONE lens (as my starter of course :) ), would the 100mm f3.5 be a good choice? of course that is the cheapest so that pretty much decides it for me, but i also notice there is a 110 macro and not sure if 65mm would be too wide. i would like the lens to be 'all purpose', good enough before getting more lenses!</p>

[jim_peterson2]

<p>David, you are right. The lens shutter doesn't completely eliminate the need for MLU. But if I could rephrase, MLU is a much bigger issue with the Pentax 6x7 than it is with the GS-1. </p>

[ondebanks]

<blockquote>

<p>how useful are they without a waistlevel finder?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Any MF reflex camera can in theory be used with a naked focusing screen, but it will drive you mad, because ambient light around and above the camera will wash out the view. The sides of the WLF keep out this stray light. The other role of the WLF is that it has a flip-up magnifier - some people use this all the time, others only when they want to check critical focus. I would always use it - the image then looks enormous, very bright and highly detailed; it is one of the most satisfying things in photography.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>would a waistlevel finder be useful on a tripod with landscapes?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes! Absolutely. There's nothing better.</p>