How are you with on-the-spot negotiating?

[elle_m]

<p>How are you with on-the-spot negotiating? And should this be a skill wedding photographers excel at?</p>

<p>I ask because a few times now, I’ve had clients book a session, but when they show up to sign the contract (which I’ve typically put together based on the session and package they’ve booked), they want to re-negotiate the terms. This has been a surprise, because I’m very careful in my wording to be clear that they have “booked _____________ on ____________ for $_______________ , which will be finalized with the signing of the contract next ___________,” or something to that effect.</p>

<p>Creatively speaking, I’m very adept at thinking on the spot, but mathematically speaking, I am not. I have a learning disability which makes math difficult for me. I have developed methods to accommodate this, but it still shows when I’m under pressure. And it looks unprofessional.</p>

<p>In both cases, when I went over the numbers later, I realized I was taking a pretty big hit.</p>

<p>I guess it kind of irks me because I’ve spent countless hours putting together packages and sessions to be fair to myself and the client, and when a client requests a unique quote, I do the same. So when I’m forced to do some on-the-spot finagling because the client hadn’t made up their mind after all, I buckle. I want them to be happy, most of all, but I also have to think about myself and my business</p>

<p>I will say that the business side of the business is the most stressful for me, but I’m doing alright, especially in an oversaturated market.</p>

<p>Perhaps this is another reason to take another look at this as a career choice? Lots of crappy photographers succeed because they’re good business men. And lots of great photographers fail because they don’t have business instincts. Or perhaps I’m worrying over nothing?</p>

[picturesque]

<p>I don't think it is unprofessional to say that you will think things over before agreeing to changes, particularly if it concerns your contract. Especially if you listen to their requests carefully, and fully understand the changes they want. Just say you'll consider everything and let them know by x day and time.</p>

<p>Alternatively, if you are selling packages or making 'deals', stop doing it that way. Adopt an a la carte system where all you need do is add things up. And use a calculator.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>In general negotiation is something that every business person needs to be good at. </p>

<p>In your situation - math is not a strong suit - you recognize that and have strategies for dealing with it - which is good - most poor negotiators don't recognize that they have a weakness.</p>

<p>If the negotiation involves cash out of your pocket (ie additional prints, albums, etc...) or additional time that you would charge for - then it acceptable to say that you need to go back and recheck the numbers just to make sure you're comfortable with them. I haven't been in too many business negotiations where changes to the contract were approved on the spot.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[elle_m]

<p>Thanks Nadine!</p>

<p>Usually they don't come with suggestions, per se. They just say, "we don't want this aspect of the package anymore, or this. And what if you change this a bit so it's over thataway, and then move this to here.... Oh and we want more of this. How much will it be now?" And they sit there and look at me while I write it all down, silently mocking my calculator lol. Ugh... I think it's because I often deal with corporate big-wigs who are used to heavy-handed negotiation tactics. I, on the otherhand, need time to think about these things. lol.</p>

<p>So packages aren't the typical thing anymore? I thought they made it easy for people, for the most part -- shooting + a freebie of somethingorother + photos + prints + album + + +... = final total. Is a la carte pricing more effective? As in, saying a day of photography will be $x and anything else is an added cost?</p>

<p> </p>

[elle_m]

<p>Thanks for your thoughts as well, Dave!</p>

[picturesque]

<p>No, I'm not saying a la carte is more typical or effective. Maybe more effective <em>for you, </em>since you can use the system to your advantage. Packages have advantages and disadvantages, for both the photographer and client. However, if you can't keep your eye on your profit margin, on the fly, I'd reduce complexity, which is the reason for going a la carte.</p>

<p>Also, don't agree to a contract signing meeting unless everything has been nailed down. It is a waste of time and a big disadvantage for you if the prospect comes to the meeting and proceeds to confuse you (even innocently) by trying to manipulate the package items. Prospects will generally try to get the best deal they can, and will try to find where they can get cents off, so keeping things simple will allow you to 'just say no'.</p>

[lilly_w]

<p>'And should this be a skill wedding <a href="../wedding-photography-forum/00Y0lZ?unified_p=1" target="_blank">photographers</a> excel at?' Absolutely. Every business owner should excel at negotiating or adroitly dealing with such impromtu requests. When putting you on the spot, there's no harm in expressing a bit of surprise (e.g.: 'you caught me off guard as I was expecting to sign this agreement based on our understanding...and will need time to review the changes.' Key words: <em>our</em> understanding. That you're caught off-guard/need time to consider denotes the possibility that the proposed (<em>material</em>) changes may not be acceptable. Thus, your prospective client ought not be surprised if you reply as such, or perhaps with other adjustments (beneficial to you) to the package. Business people respect thoughtful, deliberative business people. Not much respect for 'buckling'. There are many good negotiating books in the biz section of your local bookstore. The deal is never closed until the ink is dry...and the money spent.</p>

[elle_m]

<p>I see what you're saying, Nadine. That actually makes sense. Hmmm... I wonder if maybe having one or two packages, and then kind of "build your own" coverage through a la carte items, would work...</p>

<p>Thanks Lilly! In any case, I plan to work on my negotiating skills. I'll never be great at it, but I think I can learn to get by.</p>

[elle_m]

<p>And I should ad, I'm completely fine with negotiating if I have time to go back and think about it, or if I'm prepared to negotiate (i.e. I've planned options/lowest I'm willing to go/etc. before hand).</p>

[mariosforsos]

<p>Of course negotiating is part of the essential business skillset, and not only for photography! However, you should always know where your boundaries lie and when (and if) you should cross them.</p>

<p>As for the calculations, trust me, there is nothing weird, demeaning or strange about recalculating figures once a customer makes changes. Personally, I have an approach pretty much like Nadine's (a few standard, non-negotiable packages and then a fully customisable package made out of around 30 different components which can be further adjusted on the spot) and to support that I always have my iPad with me (used to have a laptop) with an MS Excel spreadsheet which pretty much automatically calculates everything for me. So, if a clients wants "a little bit of this and a little bit of that", I simply throw those selections into the spreadsheet and out comes the final number, taking into account taxes, costs, etc, etc. I then have a duplicate spreadsheet at the back, with just the final numbers and some basic wording, which I print and attach to the typical contract for the client. It takes seconds, I know it will be correct time after time after time and it actually impresses clients.</p>

[duncan_holmes2]

<p>Plan for alternatives, have some sketches of typical changes that you can accommodate and still turn a profit, including upping the price if the demands are for more stuff than the product/offerring allows. Write this up as a table that only you can see/refer to during discussions.<br>

Remember too that you can always walk away if the demands go outside of your comfort zone. If you are running a business you have to make a profit or get some added benefit from cutting a deal outside your normal rates.<br>

A simple checklist table (like you see when you are comparing features on electronic products for example) with a total under each column works well for this.<br>

A table (appropriate to your products and services) should allow you to have ready responses to most demands from the clients. Allow a little leeway in each deal for negotiations which are just about price. The old ..."well, I would be taking a little bit of a hit here, but I really like you and want your business so I could offer this at this price.... but only if...." etc.<br>

Part of the sneakier sales routine is to take their requests, which you have already worked out beforehand, pretend to do some "special" sums and then give them your extra special, only for you, price. A bit like car salesman who always go and ask the manager to get you that last $100.00 off the price.<br>

Don't list your margin or costs on the table, just what you would charge to make a profit on the combination of items.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Here's another thought. Use an a la carte approach. Take those bits of this and that and add them up. Then take x percent off the total, if you want to (you like them or they are spending a lot of money with you, etc.). That x percent can vary based on the total and other things, and looks to the client like they are getting a deal. Yet it is easier to keep track of and you don't have to offer it if you don't want to. Needless to say, you have to have everything nailed down before you take the cents off, or you have to make it clear that if anything changes after the deal is done, they will need to start over.</p>

[fuccisphotos]

<p>They shouldn't mock your calculator. Get a little one, write things out on a paper, don't try and do it in your head. Say you want to make sure they get the right price and don't want to over charge them inadvertently by relying on doing math in your head. If they mock you after that, they are poor decision makers as far as their checkbooks and impolite to boot. </p>

[ianivey]

<p>When clients want to negotiate price, being able to say "no, I'm sorry, I can't move on the number because I designed that package to provide the best deal for you given what you asked for," is a skill you can practice, first by having the conversation in your head, and second by having it with a friend who plays the role of demanding customer. Seriously, though it may sound funny, this really works and can help you build a backbone of sorts, for those times when you know you've given them a fair bottom line.</p>

<p>When you build a package, you're doing it based on what they told you they wanted. It is entirely appropriate in that instance to be armed with an a la carte price list, and when they propose an alternate package, to tell them what the new structure would cost based on the a la carte list. </p>

<p>If they begin negotiating by knocking off an element of the package, quoting a higher price for their new proposal can help them understand how much added value you've carefully given them in the package. Calculate the price right there in front of them from your a la carte list, and explain that the original package includes a nice discount, but that you're perfectly happy to work off the a la carte list if that's what they prefer. Often this will immediately produce two signatures on your original package contract by a happy couple.</p>

<p>One reason couples negotiate is that they are not aware of the value you're giving them in a package deal. Showing them the difference between the a la carte price and the package price for the same offering is powerful. This also is a good reason to offer only a few "packages" from which to choose: too many "packages" undermines the validity of your a la carte list.</p>

<p>As you create your a la carte price list, make careful notes for yourself about your actual profit margins (for products with direct costs, such as albums) and estimated revenue per hour of work (for elements that include significant labor time). Developing the a la carte price list will greatly assist you in understanding your own business. Using it will most likely transform your comprehension of how to assemble packages and negotiate with clients within the first wedding season. </p>

<p>There are also a few instances (only a few, but they can be important opportunities) in which explaining your revenue per hour of work can help the client understand what's involved in producing your product and how fair your price is.</p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>I’ve had clients book a session, but <strong>when they show up to sign the contract they want to re-negotiate the terms </strong>. . .<br>

I’ve spent countless hours putting together <strong>packages and sessions to be fair to myself and the client. </strong><br>

<strong>when a client requests a unique quote, I do the same</strong>.<br>

So <strong>when I’m forced to do some on-the-spot finagling because the client hadn’t made up their mind after all, I buckle.</strong></p>

</blockquote>

<p>As I understand it you have only two product offers:<br>

a) Pre set Packages<br>

b) Tailored to suit quotes<br>

It seems to me you are missing the individual items price list.</p>

<p>Take a restaurant as an example.<br>

a) I can order the” big breakfast” $20. I get –“ bacon; eggs; hash brown; mushrooms; tomato; toast; coffee (double shot 50c extra)” <br>

b) I can ask the cook to make up a special breakfast for me – I am vegetarian, gluten intolerant with a soy and nut allergy – or I am just willing to pay a fair price for a special breakfast.<br>

c) I can look at the list of “extras” or “side dishes” and make my own breakfast: Egg - $2; Bacon - $3; Tomato - $2 . . . etc</p>

<p>You are missing this third offer of product.</p>

<p>There are not many “extras” or “side dishes” you need to list</p>

<p>Shooting time: $250 per hour<br>

Prints per unit price – list them<br>

Location Shoot more than 5 miles - $20 per mile</p>

<p>You still offer your tailored to measure service, which you can negotiate and reckon the maths in your own time, send that off as a contract and simply put in that contract that it is unique and accepted as is. Obviously there is a meeting or telephone conversation to gather the information as to what the client wants – during that conversation you make it clear that you will provide a unique quote.</p>

<p>If, at the signing meeting the question of modifications arises, you do not negotiate or calculate money for it, if that is a weakness for you. </p>

<p>If the tailor made contract is no longer suitable to the client, then it is voided; and you offer to do another professional quote and supply it, in due course, the same as you did the first. All you do then is take detailed notes regarding the clients’ requirements, confirm their NEW requirements are clear and end the meeting. <br>

If the client wants to make a choice on the spot: they can choose from the pre prepared list of packages. <br>

Or the client can add up items from the “ extras” barrel and it is simple sums to add that up.<br>

Of course the list of "extra items" will be priced at least 100% more than any same package.</p>

<p>This way you have taken the sting (which hits you) out of any negotiation.<br>

It is a simple choice for the client.<br>

If they come to the meeting wanting to change the preparatory work you have provided for them, in the tailored to fit contract to suit their original requirements - because THEY have now changed THEIR minds, you offer them "off the shelf", or "make their own" . . . or they wait for you to draw up a new quote and a new contract, <em>in a professional manner</em>.</p>

<p>I would expect, that if the delivery and sales pitch was good and FIRM the <em>“corporate big-wigs who are used to heavy-handed negotiation tactics”</em>: wouldn’t have much come back, would they?<br>

After all you are merely offering and supplying <em>best business practice.</em> <br>

I doubt if they went for the final fitting for their "cooperate big wig $5000 suit" – the tailor would redesign it on the spot?</p>

<p>If you have poor negotiating skills and are not adept at mental arithmetic, then sure, improve those skills and practice to improve yourself - I agree and encourage that.<br>

<em> </em><br>

<em>But the bottom line is: if you are going to lose the boxing match, you simply never step into the ring . . . until you know that you will win – (that’s “corporate big wig” Philosophy 101).</em><br>

That last bit of advice will only cost you $10,000 – the account is in the mail.</p>

<p>WW</p>

[mark_harrington1]

<p>Sales 101: Your scenario shows significant weakness in your overall sales position. Firstly, you should not have divulged pricing to your customer prior to execution of a contract. You now are in a very weak selling position. While I realize you need to discuss costs, that is one of the very last things you should do. Here's a way you can think about future sales meetings.<br />1. Qualify your prospect: Who, What, When, Where and Why - If someone is getting married in their backyard or community center its a logical expectation that they may be on a budget. On the other hand, if they are getting married at one of the trendy wedding venues, money isn't as much an obstacle. Have they talked to other photographers? Why didn't they sign with them? and don't forget, you can also deduce their potential comfort level simply by asking "Do you have a budget in mind?"<br />2. Gather information about their expectations. It may help to use a form that covers things like number of guest, type of pictures required, time alloted for pictures, Formals etc. and what is the final use of images. Obviously someone who wants a 48x60 wall portrait will require a different amount of work than someone who wants a couple of 8x10's and pictures for Facebook. The more information you gather, the easier your sales presentation will be. this is where most salesmen miss the mark - they hear the client wants an album and immediately start talking about the type of albums they offer. Resist the temptation, just ask questions - including what kind of album they want.<br />3.Sales Presentation - Using the information you obtained tailor your pitch to the prospect. Something like, So to summarize your vision, you want a photographer who will mix a PJ style with a traditional feel. You want images optimized for social networking sites and you would like to send a formal shot that includes the b&g with each guest to include in the thank you notes. Is that correct? - Very important to get their agreement, otherwise you're trying to sell tires to a guy who just bought a brand new car - a really tough job..<br />4. Create desire to use you over someone else - along this line "Mary and Jim, based on what you've told me, I would suggest our XX package which includes a mix of pj and traditional styling and individual guest photos. To ensure you get a formal portrait with each of your guests, I will be using a second photographer with a canvas backdrop and studio lighting so you can provide them with a truly special thanks and we can continue to capture the other guests in a more candid, pj style that you like. Here are some examples of images from out XX package. - then get buy-in "Does this package sound like what you wanted?"<br />5. Answer objections or confirm they're making the right choice - Objections are good, they let you know what you need to do to close the sale. If there are no objections, you need to reassure them they are making the right choice. "Jim, I think you're making the right choice. Imagine you and Mary celebrating your first anniversay, looking over the album and remembering the emotion of the day, the details that went into centerpieces and the special portraits you have of friends and family. That's when you look at each other and say, we had a great wedding didn't we!"<br />6. Close The Sale!!!- Up to this point we haven't discussed price, now it's time. Our xx package is $xx.xx. To reserve the date, I need a deposit of 10%. Would you like to reserve the date now? If yes, sign, if they need to think about it, go back to objections, "What are your reservations?" If it's cost, you can now negotiate (you must always know your bottom line) you can lower your price x amount, or as I prefer, offer fifty cent dollars (extra prints, better album cover etc) offering product discounts over lower price is a great way to minimize your out of pocket deduction as hopefully your prints etc are marked up at least XXX%. If they still are uncertain and want to check another option you can offer a 30 day no obligation cancellation. The laws of averages say once the contract is signed they won't look around, and if they walk out without signing the contract, they won't be back - especailly if they meet a photographer who knows how to sell.....<br>

As you can see, the above scenario is not based on cost, rather it is based on needs and wants. When a person asks how much, they haven't thought about what they want or need, that's why you are a sales consultant, you help them define their needs and wants. Hopefully you've done it well and they like you or trust you will deliver what they need/want. That being the case, money doesn't matter (within reason), and if you've guided them based on their ability to pay (see qualification ideas) you should close the sale. Obviously you'll need some dynamic thinking but if you present a plan that meets their desires within a price range they can afford, you should close the sale during the first meeting - that alone assures you more profit!</p>

[ted_suss]

<p>I've been using my method for years. It works well because the client makes ALL of the decisions and does their own math. I don't charge a session/shooting fee. I have a list of products and there is a minimum dollar purchase based on how long I work or how complicated it is. They put together their own package. What's even more attractive to my clients is when they call initially, I let them know that I have NO session fee and NO packages. They can purchase whatever they'd like once they see their images.<br>

Here are some examples. These aren't real prices, so PLEASE do your own cost/pricing calculations and follow the method.<br>

Portraits of multiple children, families or even large family groups:<br>

1 grouping - $200 minimum purchase<br>

multiple groupings - $75 minimum purchase per grouping<br>

Weddings:<br>

2 hour coverage - $1,000 minimum purchase<br>

4 hour coverage - $1,600 minimum purchase<br>

8 hour coverage - $2,200 minimum purchase<br>

12 hour coverage - $3,000 minimum purchase<br>

IMPORTANT - What makes this work is that I get half of the minimum order when they contract with me and the other half the day of the shoot. There is NO money owed to me when they view and order the images. This way they tend to spend more. I also have a discount system based on how much they spend over their minimum as an incentive.<br>

Give it a try and contact me with specific questions and good luck!</p>

 

[William Michael]

<p>The Portrait & Wedding Photography Service described by Ted, is similar to an offer of product which was used (and probably still is used) by an Ex-patriot Californian Lady, now working in Australia.<br /><br />Her Web Advertising was found by a member and posted on a thread here a few years ago: only to receive a severe lambasting, by mostly every respondent: Including suggesting she was a sham and a con artist.<br />I hope this does not happen again.<br /><br />In an endeavour to stop anything, before it begins: I state that I fully understand this system of Wedding Photography Service and I suggest that anyone who thinks it should be criticised, should think it through, before commenting.<br>

<br />It is also noteworthy that there is great leverage in this particular type of system when used in countries like Australia. This fact was also never understood by the many respondents on the previous thread, who comments it seemed were driven by ignorance.</p>

<p>WW</p>

[savagesax]

We actually don't offer set packages, such as for $999 you get all of the images on a DVD or for $2000 you get an album plus all of the images on a DVD.

 

When people ask us for a ballpark price over the phone we simply ask what they've alotted for wedding photo's. Then ask the people to come over, see your work, and your company will create something special just for them. If asked for a discount tell them you will take 10 percent off, or whatever amount you wish, if they pay in cash - due at the end of the wedding. Some photographers offer a free engagement sitting. We've done this practice too. You will be surprised how often they take you up on your offers.

 

If it's a referral from another bride we simply say you will do the wedding at the same discounted price as the other bride.