Gear and Settings: Just watched a David Ziser video

[divo]

<p>You may have seen my <a href="../wedding-photography-forum/00XXpk">post last week</a> about having a friend ask me to shoot his wedding. I'm interested but have never specifically shot a wedding, so I am doing a lot of test shots, reading and watching online videos. The couple is understandably busy and are still discussing the issues that I raised (based in large part on your comments,) but I have started doing my homework anyways. Flash photography is an area of interest for me regardless of whether I take on the wedding in the end.</p>

<p>I just watched a David Ziser video on the finer points of using bounce flash--I was already familiar with bounce flash, but wanted to see what a pro would do in a wedding-specific situation. The sense I get is that his results, even with a single on-camera flash, are based on using ISO 800 and higher with IS lenses (<em>Canon EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS USM </em>and <em>Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM</em><em>.</em><em>) </em>With these lenses on a 40D he was able to shoot handheld down to 1/125th sec @ f/5.6 while zoomed beyond 200mm! That would be great, especially for the ceremony. I’m not so worried about more formal shots: I can bounce the flash off a large reflector or move them closer to a wall. Mostly, I’m concerned about the ceremony itself. (NB. He also used his wide angle at high ISO settings just for reference.)</p>

<p>Sadly, I have an original 5D with the original <em>Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM </em>(without IS) and find that shooting handheld at anything slower than 1/200th gives me far too many throwaways. Also, I'm generally not too happy with noise levels when going over ISO 400 with my 5D, although LR3 has improved this with the improved noise reduction feature. I can bump it up a bit now which allows more control over balancing ambient light with bounced flash in church interiors. My understanding of theory and test shots indicates that higher ISO means that the light from your flash is able to move around more/penetrate farther into the photo.</p>

<p>I'm guessing that most pros have moved on to either a 7D or the 5D2 for wedding photography along with the newest IS iterations of their chosen lenses in order to take advantage of cleaner high ISO speeds. Anyone remember what their rule of thumb settings were back when they actually used the equipment I currently have? (As mentioned in my previous post, I also have the <em>Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM </em>and <em>Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L USM</em> (original), so I'm more interested in increasing the long end. Anything that I am completely missing the point on here?</p>

[acedigital]

<p>Ok, so what is your question here? Can you go to the church/wedding venue and take some test shots? Your equipment list sounds fine to me, don't be afraid of the higher ISOs, your flash will work a lot less harder.</p>

[divo]

<p>Rephrasing of question(s): Those that are shooting with a 5D, what are your rule of thumb ISO settings when shooting inside with a bounced flash? Are people happy with LR3's (or another programs) capability to reduce noise to the point where shooting at ISO 800 plus on a 5D original is viable for something like a wedding? If people are unhappy with the high noise of the 5D, what ISO and shutter speed settings do they recommend (obviously as a starting point) for shooting indoors at an event like a wedding? I was clear from the video that David Ziser had his goto settings, then varied from that based on the location. I'm assuming that many photographers who move from location to location have a similar approach because they know they can bank on results.</p>

<p>If I take on the wedding, I fully intend to spend some time in the church before the event. I would rather spend my time there (which may be limited) scoping out potential locations rather than having to do tons of test shots to determine a starting ISO speed. Any rule of thumb ideas would be a convenient place to start testing and would help me narrow things down faster.</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Hi Devon.</p>

<p>First off I'd check if you can even use flash for church interior shots beyond the processionals/recessionals, and formals. </p>

<p>I'd evaluate your current gear and noise levels with prints in mind ... NOT with 100% views on a computer screen. Computer screens are back lit and tend to exhibit more contrast, where prints are reflected light. There is a big difference. Also, very few clients view digital files enlarged on a computer screen, nor do they do it on a big screen like many of us use. A good percentage will be viewed on Facebook ... LOL!</p>

<p>My second shooter uses a 5D and her files are excellent ... she doesn't own any IS lenses either. Your gear is fine, and more than up to the task. I use a tripod or mono-pod in dim churches when shooting ambient. Some people use bean bag supports or steady themselves on a pew or against a column. It's a lot cheaper than IS lenses... besides, a lot of lenses don't even come in IS versions. And remember, if the subject is moving, lower shutter speeds with IS doesn't freeze them. </p>

<p>Now, let's discuss shutter speeds when using flash. In brighter conditions the flash will be mostly fill, and shutter speeds are usually fast. In dim lighting the flash begins to take over the lighting of the foreground subject. Be aware that shutter speed plays a lesser role now in freezing the subject ... flash duration does that job. Contrary to popular mis-conceptions, a flash doesn't vary power at different settings, it varies how long the flash stays on (duration). The more light that is needed to light the subject, the longer the flash stays on. In any case that duration is nano-second fast and will freeze most foreground subjects even when staying on for the maximum duration. BTW, "flash duration" is how they are able to photograph bullets exploding balloons in a dark setting. </p>

<p>This allows you to reduce the camera's shutter speed with-in reason ... depending on how dim the ambient lighting actually is, and how fast the subject may be moving, and in what direction. However, a stop faster than the focal length being used is usually pretty safe ... like 1/125th when using a 85mm, and so on, I personally use the focal length ... so, 1/80th with a 85mm lens ... if the subject is more static, I can lower that to 1/50th or less, if moving really fast, I can increase it to 1/125th. This avoids getting a "ghosted" secondary exposure from the camera's shutter speed being to low ... unless you want that ... in which case you can really lower the shutter speed to deliberately create that effect. Just make sure you set second shutter on the camera's flash controls in the menu so the secondary ghosted image falls behind the moving subject. </p>

<p>All of the above is loosely called "Dragging the Shutter". The general rule of thumb is: shutter speed controls the background ambient exposure, and the TTL flash duration controls the foreground subject exposure. It's how people get opened up backgrounds rather than a wall of black, and still get crisp foreground subjects even in action.</p>

<p> </p><div></div>

[mitch_w1]

<p>I use a 5DI at ISO 800 and higher regularly for weddings - with and without flash - using 70-200 2.8 non-is among other lenses. Images are beautiful. Expose correctly and noise should not be an issue. </p>

[divo]

<p>Marc W: Thanks. I know a patchwork of theory, but it doesn't always come together in crystal clarity when I need it, hence the questions and test shots. I really want to get bugs ironed out so I can do a good job at the wedding, should my friend choose to go that route. Thanks for the tip about proofing. I'm admittedly weak on the print end of things (mostly work online with friends and family,) so your explanation helps a lot. I just went back and looked at my ISO 800-1000 shots without pixel peeping and that tells a different story--I'm sure ISO 800 will be fine paired with proper bounce flash technique.</p>

<p>Shutter speed: I was really suprised that he was getting 1/50 and 1/60 handheld with his 24-105mm zoomed out (and as stated above 1/125 near 250mm with the 70-300mm.) It didn't look that dark in the church on the video, but I who knows? Your shutter speed explanation helps clarify that. That gives me some ideas for what to test/practice. Do you mind my asking if the above shot was from a 5D?</p>

<p>Thanks again for your in-depth response.</p>

[divo]

<p>Mitch W: thanks for the tip. Glad to hear it works for someone out there. I'll keep working on technique. I would love to see a picture of that camera/lens combo if you wouldn't mind posting. I couldn't find one on your member page.</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Devon, that was shot with a Sony A900 ... FF ... but your 5D handles higher ISOs a bit better. I rarely shoot above ISO 800 or 1000, so the Sony works fine for me. </p>

[john_deerfield]

<p>Marc pretty well explained how dragging the shutter works... and that probably isn't going to work in the church. Nothing wrong with putting the 70-200 on a tripod though. And, the Canon 24-105 is an IS lens, hehnce the slower shutter speeds hand held.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Below is a 100 percent crop of an image I shot using a 5D original at ISO 1600, f4, 1/80th on my "funny tripod" (beanbag on top of a small leg spread tripod) using a 135mm lens (obviously, no IS). No flash is used. Look at the noise in the groom's tux. I can tell you that in a print, you will not see it at all, and this image was processed using LR 2.something... The key is not to underexpose, to keep noise down.</p>

<p>1. My rule of thumb when using flash is to drag the shutter, as explained by people above. Often, at the reception, I have my non IS 50-135mm f2.8 on my 40D (equivalent to about 70-200mm), hand held, with flash (and Demb Diffuser), at ISO 1250 (I seem to like that) at f2.8--5.6 and 1/60th, or whatever shutter speed gives me that balance between sharp subjects and open backgrounds. The 40D is, IMHO, almost as good as a 5D original in noise response.</p>

<p>2. I routinely use my 5D and 40D at ISOs up to 1600. I will use ISO 3200 carefully--not underexposing. I use the lowest ISO I get away with to do what I want. I haven't played with LR3 noise control much, but I hear it is much improved.</p>

<p>For no flash ceremony shots, do some research. Plenty has been written here in this forum. My no flash ceremony rule of thumb is:</p>

<p>1. Try not to drop below 1/60th (with or without support, depending upon hand holding and subject motion rules of thumb). This is to stop most slow ceremony action.</p>

<p>2. Know how DOF is affected based on subject distance, f stop and focal length. This tells you what kind of results you can expect in terms of what is sharp in the image, given you have stopped subject motion.</p>

<p>3. Realize that sometimes, content takes priority over sharpness, and sometimes, noise, both with subject motion and hand holding.</p><div></div>

[divo]

<p>Marc W. Thanks for getting back to me.</p>

<p>John D: I'll have to look into what they expect re flash during the ceremony to see whether I need to go the tripod route. Wouldn't that keep you less mobile during the ceremony?</p>

<p>Nadine: Thanks for another informative response. Always appreciated. Good to know that I can crank up the ISO to get more out of my flash and still get useable prints.</p>

<p>Hmm. Is no flash more of a church prerequisite, or is that usually something set by the couple? Over here in Korea most weddings I've been to are held in "wedding halls," and they get pretty interactive--everybody just runs around snapping flash images whenever they feel like. Ceremonies last about 30 minutes and are pretty frenetic. Then everyone races downstairs to the buffet before dashing out the door. The whole thing is more of a speedy free for all. The wedding in question, however, will be a church wedding and it's been a while since I was at one of those. Also been a while since I was at a wedding back in Canada.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Devon--realize that my sample image uses no flash. It is there to show you the noise level at 100 percent crop of the 5D, given you don't underexpose.</p>

<p>As said above, you need to find out whether flash is allowed at your particular ceremony. Over here, it varies, and the procedure is slightly different with flash and no flash.</p>

<p>A tripod need not slow you down. Practice and the right head make a difference, though. Also, anticipation of where the action will happen.</p>

<p> </p>

[fotografz]

<p>In our area, NO flash during the ceremony tends to be the rule rather than the exception. It doesn't matter what the guests may do with their point&shoots, the church rules apply to the hired photographer. It may well be different in your area. But I always plan on no flash even if told I can use it because the officiant may change that rule at the last minute.</p>

<p>So, I rarely go to an interior ceremony ... church or not ... without a tripod. One camera with the longer lens (usually a 70-200) goes on it and is set up toward the rear of the area. The second camera usually has a fast aperture lens from 85mm down to a wider lens. If working alone, I alternate between the tripod camera and the hand-held one depending on what is about to happen as the ceremony progresses.</p>

<p>Since you are looking for 5D specific images ... here's one using ambient light only, ISO 800 @ 1/60th shutter ... lens was a 20-35/2.8L @ 20mm f/3.2. Hand-held using the balcony rail for support.</p>

<p> </p><div></div>

[divo]

<p>Hmmmm. I have more and more respect for those of you that earn your living this way. All these little things that never would have occured to me. Will definitely hash out what is and isn't allowed (if we all agree on shooting details.) Will definitely bring the tripod just in case things get changed at the last moment. Thanks for all the tips and sample pics. Feeling better about the higher ISO options at this point. I'm sure I'll have tons of questions to follow.</p>

[k_constance]

<p>Hi I have been talking to a few of you recently about very slow hand held shutter speeds<br>

my issue very little light F 2.8 ISO 6400 shutter speed 1/20 could not get any higher (problem with hand held)<br>

I think this could be due to lense which is 24-70 2.8. could any one help with advice</p>

[john_walsh7]

<p>I think the biggest mistake i have seen ( and made ) with higher ISO photographs is not equipment related but exposure related. I am constantly getting as close to overexposure as I can , otherwise known as "shooting the right ". Often what looks toasted in preview on the screen and even in the histogram ( histogram is not of raw file but of jpeg as far as my understanding goes even if shooting in raw ) can be pulled back to the left in a raw converter for a pleasing high iso image. Conversely sliding up the exposure on a slightly underexposed image brings out the noise in a very displeasing manner. Knowing your camera in this manner ie what you can get away with and bracketing around that exposure area will give you less headaches in the end. </p>

[fotografz]

<p><strong>John</strong>, to that excellent point I would add proper white balance in-camera which can affect exposure adjustments in post even if you shoot RAW files. <br>

Overly warm tungsten lighting commonly found in low light situations can fool the eye ... and when properly white balanced in post production suddenly become underexposed requiring exposure adjustments that reveal more noise in the shadows, and even banding if high ISO's were used.</p>

<p><strong>K Constance</strong> ... exposure is simply math. Three things determine exposure ... sensitivity of the media (ISO), amount of light striking the media (lens aperture f stops) and how long that light strikes the media (shutter speed).</p>

<p>Think of proper exposure as a constant standard, and those three controllers can be altered to achieve it. However, they are interlinked ... change one of them, and one (or both) of the others must also change. Each ISO step, and each shutter-speed step, is equivalent to one f-stop ... and so on.</p>

<p>Shooting in low available light without a flash to assist in the task is challenging ... especially with a slower maximum aperture lens like f/3.5 or even f/2.8. The longer the focal length the more challenging it becomes ... because the shutter speed must get faster as the lens gets longer to avoid hand-held motion blur. </p>

<p>In the case you outlined, using ISO 6400 and the maximum aperture of f/2.8 producing a shutter speed of 1/20th could be marginally okay with a 14 or 16mm lens, but becomes problematic with a 24mm or greater focal length. In your case, if you face this often, then a faster prime lens may be necessary.</p>

<p>In the same conditions as you describe, a 24/1.4 lens would add about 2 stops of shutter speed if shot at f/1.4 and decrease the possibility of hand-held motion blur.</p>

<p>None of the above takes into account how distance to subject effects depth-of-field (especially with a f/1.4 lens), and how subject motion itself can effect the outcome even if you do get the shutter speed up a couple of stops.</p>

<p>Which is why f<em>or most people</em> the best alternative to a set of expensive fast primes is to use flash and learn how to use it in a well balanced manner to preserve as much ambient atmosphere as possible ... and supplement their f/2.8 zoom lenses with a carefully chosen fast prime like a 35 or 50mm /1.4. </p>

<p> </p>

[k_constance]

<p>thankyou so very much for this wonderful advice just the answer I needed to have clarified appreciate your well defined answer in this situation. Merry Christmas.<br>

and thankyou all for notifying me of your responses i have received a lot of knowledge through them.</p>