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Need help, in over my head


tina___cliff_t

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<p>The couple are very nice people, but they are planning the whole wedding by themselves and more than a bit overwhelmed, and in the beginning the bride would call just asking me questions because she didn't know, and I didn't think anything of it answering them. (Questions like: How early should we get ready? When do people usually do the toast?)</p>

<p>Then I got her shot list...and it was about 80 shots long (for just family), I explained to her that guests wouldn't wait that long to go through pictures, she did cut it down a bit. </p>

<p>Originally they were seeing each other before, and doing all photos before the ceremony, but the groom doesn't want to see her before now. Ceremony is at sunset, so it will be dark when its over... Not to mention the time needed for the family photos, bridal party photos etc we are now doing after. To save time, the bride wants to take the groom and bride photos after the reception. </p>

<p>For their favor, she wants us to take a photo of them with each person/family who attended the wedding. We'll be printing the 4x6 out at the wedding, and putting it into a frame for the guest to take home. We talked about this before, but I didn't realize this is all before dinner. So guests will be waiting through formal photos and then these photos before dinner is to be served. </p>

<p>The bride and groom are really starting to stress over the time line its going to take to fit in the many photos they want, especially now that they are splitting the time up before and after the ceremony, and that it will be dark by time the ceremony ends, and somehow I was oblivious to the fact that I some how became their wedding planner unintentionally. And now I feel like I've got myself in some scary waters, and everything is getting tense and crammed...I'm worried they will be missing photos because of so many and the time crunch, or not like the pictures of the 2 of them since they'll be taking them late at night. You would think being almost through my 2nd year, I would have been better at not getting is this deep. </p>

<p>I'm just not sure what to do from here to hopefully avoid a possibly catastrophe.</p>

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<p>I would be honest with them, that their plan is not likely to go as they hope. Do the math for the number of people they want to get wedding photos with, multiply that times the number of minutes it takes to get each photo (even assuming they ARE in assembly line form, which they won't be) and let them know just how long that's going to take. And, the formals with that many people are going to be in the what, 15 minutes of sunset you have to work with? Are you going to have time to get your lighting in place for such a shoot?<br>

<br /> Your best bet honestly is to break it to them gently: if they will want that service, and still want photos of the rest of the reception, they will need to pay you to have a second and perhaps even a third photographer present. It sounds like a big wedding as far as the number of guests involved, especially if the family shots alone are 80?!<br>

<br /> They can get what they want, but it's going to cost much more, and let them know precisely and objectively why. If they require an event planner, they need to hire one. It's worth it to them. If you are pulling double duty as an event planner, you need to work that into your price.</p>

<p>If you priced this out to them already and have a contract that isn't clear enough about expectations, you might be in trouble here. But, be honest with the bride and groom and let them know that the logistics and time involved in what they want is going to prevent you from photographing the rest of the reception and perhaps even the cocktail hour. Their wedding isn't a portrait studio.</p>

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<p>The guest list is actually only about 60 people, but the original list had a lot of double ups (Bride,Groom, Dad), (Bride, Groom, Mom), (Bride, Groom, Mom, Dad)...I had asked her to really think about who she felt strongly she needed to have singles with (Dad vs their neighbor etc). <br>

As for time, tonight I actually went as far as to sit down and pretty much write up their time line for them while talking with the bride, so she knows times and how long its going to take, and how late guests will be eating, and how late they will be taking their photos. <br>

I'm wondering if I should type up a small contract (that wasn't in the original) stating all these extra plans, and have them sign it saying they suggested/chose to take their photos that late at night etc, so that hopefully it doesn't come back at me later (I look a mess in all our portraits....etc). <br>

I do have a clause in the original contract that says we will try our best to get all the photos they want, but we can't guarantee them because of time constants, guests cooperation etc. (we also have a cooperation clause too). But I'm almost wondering if I should have them sign something along those lines again too.... I just have that feeling in your stomach that makes you ill. </p>

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<p>Hi T and C.......as Clint Eastwood once said,<em> "A man's gotta know his limitations."</em><br>

<em> </em><br>

You are accepting the job as a pro. If you are having doubts...second thoughts etc., then you need to iron it out with the client <strong>before</strong> writing up a contract which may not be reasonably possible.</p>

<p>You guys know what you are doing....and it's not going to help you to go against the problems which your experience is showing you. That feeling in your stomach needs to be listened to. Regards, Robert</p>

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<p>I need to have that saying tattooed somewhere. (I often feel like I go out of my limitations) We did seem to get it mostly worked out, it is still not idea, but the two of them are no longer over stressed about the time (I really though the bride was going to cry earlier) Also found that most of their stress, like usual, was coming from family members putting in unwanted opinions, so I might need to bring my game face the day of the wedding.</p>

<p>How do you talk with couples about their amount of photos and how much time you'll need with out feeling like your flat out telling them what to do on their wedding day? I feel I do need to make sure they aren't setting themselves up for failure (and me by giving me 5 min to take a million photos) but I also don't feel like its my place to tell them "No you can't do that, you have to do it this way" etc</p>

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<p>You situation is precisely the reason that I do not ask the couple for a shot request list. I take control of the event, from what I am going to photograph and when to selecting the final images and making the album. I found it really bad when I gave up control to people who were not experienced in these situations. And by doing everything my way the couple is less stressed out and know that they are going to get great products in the end. I believe in simplification. Good luck working it all out.</p>
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<p>I NEVER talk about a shot list with the couple. If the wan to give me one;<br>

1. I will try to get the shots they request but can not guarantee it. I have no control on how the day will go, what will happen, etc....<br>

2. I ask that they keep it to "Must Have" shots. Typically those are the same shots I make sure I get any way.</p>

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<p>I agree with what the others are saying ... be honest with them. If you feel it's too much, it's in their best interest to tell them that. Otherwise they will be seriously disappointed when it doesn't go the way they *think* it will go. And after talking with them, if they still are more ambitious (we'll call it that) than you, I would have them sign something that states that you recommended something other than what is going to be carried out. But I also agree that it sounds like the service of two or three photographers. OR, you guys and a photobooth. I would recommend something like smilebooth.com to them for the guest pictures. That's A LOT of work ... shooting the guests AND printing out the shots and getting them framed. I personally would NOT agree to doing that myself.</p>

<p>I would also strongly encourage them to do a day-after session in order to get some beautiful photos of just the two of them as it sounds like the family shots will eat up much of the night. </p>

<p>Best wishes!</p>

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<p>One suggestion: take a snap of the *couples* - pass out a business card, and press on. Trying to get a photo printed, framed, and passed out in the midst of waiting for a late wedding meal is not going to go well. Do you have three or four assistants?</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>I think you need to remind them that this is supposed to be a wedding that you are taking pictures of, not a photo shoot that just happens to be of a wedding. Rather than telling them what they can or can't do, give them choices:<br>

"Would you rather party and have fun with family and friends or spend three hours standing next to increasingly unhappy people wearing a fake smile?"<br>

"Would you rather pay me for my standard wedding coverage or pay me more for my deluxe planning package?"</p>

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<p>I think that not having a shot list is not a good idea. Yes, you can say you can't guarantee that every shot will be taken, but having them write out all that they want can be a good exercise for both you and the couple. I also do a timeline with them every time too. That makes sure I know what's going on and not missing anything, and letting them know if what they have budgeted for time is unreasonable. So if I got a list of 80 shots, I'd tell them that at a minimum each shot takes 1 minute to set up and take, if everything goes perfectly. So that's an hour and 20 minutes right there. Stress how the wedding needs to be about them having fun and celebrating the day. Start with the basics, and get a well composed shot with ALL the family members, and other people deemed critical. Make sure that no one is blocked, you can see all the faces. Take at a minimum 3 of these shots. That way you at least get one good shot of everyone they want to record as being at the wedding. Yes, it's great to have a bunch of family shots with the individual groups, but really, do we need a shot with just grandma, with the bride, then a shot of grandma with the bride and groom, then a shot with just grandma and grandpa and the bride, and then a shot with all 4, ok now do the same with just the grandpa, etc. Unless you have families that have messy separations and divorces, this should do just fine. Do be sensitive to that type of thing though. </p>

<p>For the presents for everyone, I seriously doubt most everyone would LOVE to have this as their take away. Frankly, having something to eat like chocolates, etc, seem to go over the best. One I saw that was great was a candy bar, and people could fill up the bags themselves with what they want, and the bags had the couples names printed on them. It was a huge hit. And if they are dead set on photos, then take table shots with the bride and groom at each. <br>

Or for a more unique twist, have ALL the guests come to the dance floor. If the place has a 2nd floor you can look over, great, if not, bring a ladder with you. Then take a shot of everyone from above. And have that as the print out in the picture frames. Do a serious one and a crazy one. Print out an array of them. You'll probably find the older guests take the serious shot and the younger guests take the funny/crazy one. <br>

Also, another benefit of having the shot list, is it can speed things up that day. You don't have them going, um, er, uh, I think I want this shot, etc. Additionally, I have the bride and groom give me the list with both the position of the person (Mother of the Bride, Grandma, etc) along with the person's first name along with pronunciations. That way I'm not pointing at people, and you can have an assistant call these names out and have them on deck ready to go up for the next photo. This saves time as well.<br>

Hope that helps.</p>

 

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<p>I've gone back and forth about the shot list, because I think it helps the couple plan their expectations and for me to meet those expectations. However, it does tend to take me away from the more artistic side of the formal sessions and make it into an assembly line. The seemingly happy middle ground I've found is to tell the couple to let me know of anyone they want me to be SURE to get (out of town travelers, seldom-seen relatives, etc.) and that bridal party and family are taken naturally throughout the course of the day. No one has balked at this, and it has worked out pretty well (knock on wood).</p>

<p>In the same "survey" I have them list their family members and close friends, bridal party, etc. by name and I create my own shot list from that. I work from big to small, releasing as many as possible to the cocktail hour and eventually getting down to the bride and groom. This workflow works well and I recommend doing this planning beforehand.</p>

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<p>Tina - </p>

<p>What does your contract say? </p>

<p>Specifically in regards to what photos you will and won't take... also in regards to services. </p>

<p>I will work with the bride and groom to provide them with a time line for the photos and my recommendations as to the order of events - and as to the people that should be in the photos and the amount / number - and who we should shoot when. </p>

<p>I would advise setting down with her and her husband to be and then going very specifically over the photos she wants and a timeline - then I'd provide her with a realistic timeline - </p>

<p>As for the photo keepsakes - I wouldn't go there unless you've done on site printing before. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>Thank you everyone for helping, The wedding is around the corner, and I'm almost sure this is going to be one of those times you go..."Live and learn" . We are doing more than what our contract says we're responsible for, somehow in the mist of all the back and forth I some how said yes to many things I should have said no to, or added a extra fee and didn't. I am thinking about giving out a numbered "must have list" for people to fill out that limits the amount they can put on there to keep time down, and so that couples don't have a complete free for all, and we end up with a 4 hour shot list or something that's not really reasonable. </p>

<p>We originally were going to have a photo booth set up, so that they could get pictures with all of their guests...though it was supposed to be more in a during the reception and relaxed vs the assembly line it kind of turned into. :/ </p>

<p>They've pushed all their family photos back to after the reception per the brides mother, I did finally convince them to let me have 5 minutes between the ceremony & reception to get one photo of at least everyone on both sides of the family...and it was actually me convincing them that they will WANT that photo. I also did tell them that doing portraits of just the two of them the next day would be a great idea (and recommended at this point), but when I told her it wasn't free, she didn't want to do it. </p>

<p>I think I am also going to pull up a contract stating that I advised them that moving all these photos to after the reception was not a good idea (I honestly told them kids get cranky, spill things on themselves, people leave, people are half undressed, or drunk). But at this point the bride and groom were just done with everyone and have caved into what other people want (which I hate when this happens). </p>

<p>I feel like a broken record and a downer because I keep having to remind them that they are planning the day as if everything is going to go perfect and down to the minute...and that never happens. Its a sad truth but I've yet to see a wedding run completely smooth, on time, and everyone happy and ready to take photos with full cooperation...</p>

<p>So thank you again, I will have to let everyone know how this turns out. I really hope it goes well, and they are happy. </p>

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<p>1. When you talk to the couple about scheduling, couch the suggestions in the form of options, as Marc suggests. But with each option, make sure you explain consequences and potential downsides. Then leave it up to them. You can also make stronger suggestions, without options, but explain clearly the advantages.</p>

<p>2. Did you try suggesting a First Look session? And showing them pictures taken before night falls and after night falls? Very different kinds of looks. Make sure the advantages of doing their formals before the ceremony are very clear. Doing the couple's romantic shots after the reception is over is a bad idea. Not only do they not look their best, they are truly tired, and it will show. There will be a very strong impulse to cut your session short, clean up and get home (or wherever). I would avoid this if at all possible--to the point of throwing in extra time beforehand if they go for a First Look session.</p>

<p>3. On the set of formals, simply assign a time for each shot, as Vail suggests. I think one minute is too little. The time has to take into account the sure delays and glitches that are usual in shooting formals. I use 2 or 3 minutes per group, and reseve a longer time for wedding party and just the couple--say 5-8 minutes each, knowing you will be shooting multiple poses. This is assuming everyone who should be there is available, waiting and ready. If not, the time estimate will not be accurate. This also assumes you, the photographer, can sometimes sneak in more or add some in on the fly, and that you are efficient in your groupings, with minimum up and down for the family members.</p>

<p>If you assign a time, simply multiply the shots by the time, and you will quickly impress upon the couple that their requests are too many. You can leave it up to them what gets done in the time they are willing to allot, or make strong suggestions, weeding out the sub groups that are seemingly redundant. You are not telling them what to do here, you are just being realistic about scheduling.</p>

<p>Even if they don't see each other, the shots of just bride and bridesmaids and immediate family, and groom and groomsmen and immediate family can be and should be done beforehand. You can also do a mini romantics session of just the couple when you do the family formals. Obviously, it will be basic, but it can be a 'cover your rear' kind of session, particularly if the session later turns out to be problematic.</p>

<p>4. On the photo favors. This kind of thing is fairly common with Chinese couples in my area, but not necessarily with photos printed out on location. Usually the photo is sent with the thank you note. If you go with shots taken with your DSLR, I would arrange things so that the guests don't enter the reception dinner hall until the bride and groom are there, waiting. Then, it is simply a matter of shooting each couple or family with the bride and groom as they enter, sign the guest book, and deposit their gift. This requires management by the couple's helpers, and smart logistical set up of sign in tables, etc. Usually a person is managing the process, telling people to sign in, deposit gift, and take the picture with the couple. So you have one or two sign in/gift receiving people, and a person managing the line. If guests are going to be having a cocktail hour while family photos are shot, be sure it is in a separate area from the dinner area.</p>

<p>If you don't do this kind of thing, you will not get most everyone at the reception. People are not just dying to have their picture taken with the couple, particularly if there are drinks to be had and food to be eaten.</p>

<p>If you must do print outs, be sure you have the manpower to do this. I'd do the printing during dinner and set all the prints out on a table so that people can pick up their prints before leaving. If you've never done on site printing, as David H. cautions, I would think twice before doing this. If you can't back out of it now, I would do my research and plan very carefully.</p>

<p>You might even think about good old Polaroid pictures. It does make things way simpler, but you have inventory to think about.</p>

<p>5. Asking them to sign a disclaimer about time and quality of photos before the day is not a good idea. This signals to them that you don't have confidence in the schedule (which you agreed to) and also signals to them that you think they might be difficult customers. Both not good to have going into the wedding. You want them to have confidence in your abilities as a photographer, technically, artistically, and experience wise.</p>

<p>The fact that you think a disclaimer is necessary also signals to me that you don't have confidence in your planning. I will resort to disclaimers, but only as a last option. For instance, if during the wedding day, the couple keeps putting me off when I am trying to do the photos they've told me they wanted, I will craft a simple statement on a piece of paper and have them sign it if by the time I leave, nothing has been done.</p>

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<p>I do not have very much confidence in the schedule (which was completely switched around from what I suggested), but what can I do besides tell them of the consequences? I was REALLY REALLY hoping, they would agree to doing a first look, which I was told was the original plan before the groom decided he did not want to see her, I've still put a bit of pressure their way to go back to this, but like I said, they both seem to have just done the "no this is fine, I don't want to think about it anymore", sent me their revised schedule, and said that's what they want to do. </p>

<p>We don't charge by the hour, so we've also gone over the fact that it won't cost them more to have us there for a VERY long day, which is why the plan was originally to get all the photos before. So they could go strait to the reception with no waiting in between. </p>

<p>But at this point, I feel like I've listed out the times for them, told them all the downsides and upsides of the different options, but when they say that's what they want to do, I can't exactly force them to do it a different way. </p>

<p>I feel almost as stressed as when I was planning my own wedding, I'm hoping for that relieved feeling the day after when you know everything turned out fine. </p>

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<p><em> I would have been better at not getting is this deep.</em><br>

sometimes it happens. Being too helpful causes other problems. She wants LOTS of family shots, all posed ? That usually takes most of your time. Try to shoot more groups than indivuals.<br>

<em>For their favor, she wants us to take a photo of them with each person/family who attended the wedding. We'll be printing the 4x6 out at the wedding, and putting it into a frame for the guest to take home.</em><br>

I sure hope you are charging the $&*%$ out of them for this. Sounds like a nightmare.</p>

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<p>It did seem to me that it was too late for you to make any changes, which is not good. I agree that you seem to be sailing on a ship heading toward the iceberg. I don't say this to be negative, but to confirm your own feelings about it. I still would not make them sign a disclaimer before the fact, though, for the reasons I outlined. I would have one, last verbal discussion about the schedule before the actual wedding, where you make a fairly strong statement about the probable consequences, and leave it at that. If communicating by e-mail as well, reiterate the conversation in an e-mail As you are well aware, pushing the issue away does not make the issue go away.</p>

<p>Have you talked to the MOB directly about the fact that family photos and couple photos after the reception is over is a very bad idea? If you haven't, I'd do so, stressing the fact that she may not have intact family groups by then. If you have, and can't budge her, I guess you just have to do it.</p>

<p>I would not have pressed for the photo of both extended families together after the ceremony (unless doing the others as well). But since you did, I would sneak in a mini session of the couple, maybe 5 minutes, reeling off about 5-8 poses, using flow posing.</p>

<p>Make sure you get the pre-ceremony shots of the bride with her side and groom with his side, if you can.</p>

<p>I'd try very hard to set up the guest photos as outlined above. This can still be done by finding out the logistics and working with the bride/MOB to set up helpers.</p>

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<p>As you can see, there are as many opinions on this subject as there are posts. While a "shot list" may seem confining, the alternative may be an unhappy client who says "I left everything up to you -YOU'RE the professional"<br>

I have always used a list, but keep it general and there are several disclaimers on it referring to the subject being present and punctual and also for any unforseen circumstances.<br>

Yes, it's vitally important to clear this all up ahead of time and if your clients can't compromise and be realistic, then perhaps it's time to let it go. Let us know what happens....-TED :-)</p>

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<p>Just a small add: +1 on how the do the "favors" photos.<br>

I do a few Balls (Formal Dances / Débuts).<br>

The ONLY way to nail each Guest / Family with the Main Party - in the case the B&G - is before they get to the Dining Table - so if they are having a receiving line it has to be done at that time.<br>

If no receiving line then the guests best be kept in an outer area and file in like loading a bus and snap each as the arrive - this will actually SAVE you time - you are two person team one only needs to be allocated this job - the other could be doing something else.<br>

In any event if you are printing on site I would have another (third) person dedicated to that and the packaging of the "favors". That person could be employed as the "herder" for the shots in the production line.<br>

If nothing else have this organized perhaps with the DJ and the Reception Manager - once the guests get to the food / main area / grog, you will be uphill tho get them orderly again.<br>

If you are quick you can allow 30 seconds for each “family”: that’s a composition of maybe two or three shots – but you will need the format of the shots ready i.e. this shot for a group of four and this for a group of eight etc – and don’t vary that – and have quick recycle time - a good battery pack.</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>Anything can be done given enough time or money. It sounds like you have neither. </p>

<p>Personally, I think it is suicide to lack confidence in doing something beyond the original intent, or a growing dread of an impossible situation ... but then do it anyway for fear of a conflict up-front. That conflict will be nothing compared to failure during and after.</p>

<p>Fact is you ARE the professional, and part of that is nipping a disaster in the bud ... OR, staffing and equipping yourself to get it done ... which isn't free. Doesn't matter what you may have promised in error ... it was a mistake to agree to it ... fess up and fix it. </p>

<p>Clients haven't a clue what it requires to do a good job for them ... and a good job isn't measured in bushel-baskets like soy beans. </p>

<p>When faced with such a scenario, I tell the client "here is what I can do in that amount of time and for that amount of money". To do what you want done will take XXX amount of time and XXX amount of money.</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>I agree with Marc W. about it being suicide to go into a situation you are pretty sure is going to be as bad as you think. This part of your statement is troubling.</p>

<p>"I feel almost as stressed as when I was planning my own wedding, <em>I'm hoping for that relieved feeling the day after when you know everything turned out fine.</em>"</p>

<p>Because there is a good chance that it won't be fine. I can't think of one wedding I've done where family and group shots were done after the reception...probably because I wouldn't allow it. I also think your guest favor photo idea is too vague and without enough control over time, manpower and logistics. Throwing your hands in the air and saying, "We'll just do the best we can," isn't going to magically make things work out.</p>

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<p>I'm with Nadine on this one - I've never had a wedding where we did ANY photos after the reception (except my sister's - we did some informal morning after photos.) Certainly never one that I've been paid for. </p>

<p>William has an excellent suggestion on the momento shots - keep the people out, line them up and take their photo as they enter. Much, much easier. </p>

<p>I don't know if drawing up an addendum to the contract is going to help at this point - other than to point out to the bride that she went against your recommendations. She's still going to be out for you if this doesn't all work out - and maybe even more so - since you are now (whether you like it or not) being the wedding planner. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

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<p><em><strong>. . .an excellent suggestion on the momento shots - keep the people out, line them up and take their photo as they enter . . . </strong></em>actually Nadine's idea, I just didn't want it to get buried under all the other good advice.</p>

<p>The point is, whatever you (T&C) decide to do, you have to have as much of the timeline under control as possible. The leverage of taking the "favor shots" before the Guests are "allowed in" is that the time line is controlled by a funnel.</p>

<p>I also agree with Marc about the situation looking quite grim, especially as you (T&C) seem to have been around the traps a bit and have before offered level headed advice to others here . . . so if you think it is bad then I think you are correct. So my previous comment was only about how to control one specific element.</p>

<p>It is best to get rid of all the elements you cannot control, especially if you are likely you will be blamed for the result later.</p>

<p>Even if it is a rough ride getting out of your role as "Wedding Co-Coordinator" and all the other "extras" you mention: <strong><em>Discretion is the better part of Valour</em></strong><br>

<strong><em> </em></strong><br>

WW</p>

<p> </p>

 

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<p>Further thoughts, and a possible solution:</p>

<p><strong>Take note of where all of your energy is going on this matter</strong> ... you are focused on meeting a desire to give a portrait party favor that will consume huge amounts of time and mental energy rather than spending it on shooting this client's wedding. They are two completely separate tasks requiring different skill levels and styles ... and partially different gear.</p>

<p><strong>You aren't the first wedding photographer to get in trouble</strong> when they take the "client service" thing to far. But never forget, in our quest to please, we can end up pleasing no one, including ourselves.</p>

<p>I don't know where the notion that a wedding is a <em>portrait-a-thon</em> came from ... probably a throw back to when <em>portraits, formal</em>s <em>and shooting tables</em> was the main photographic intent ... and it was expected. However, that was then and this is now.</p>

<p><strong>Our wedding last week was a small example of this. </strong>One of the client parents approached me at the church and demanded that I shoot individual portraits of each member of his family ... and he'd pay me for it. I politely explained that the "wedding" shooting agenda was set weeks ago, and that it was already ambitious. I suggested to the Bride that each extended family assemble in the Foyer and that I'd shoot one group shot of each ... and that was all I could squeeze in. I will make a 11 X 14 print for that parent, and suggest a separate portrait session if he really wants family portraits. </p>

<p><strong>This client couple also wanted photos as a party favor</strong>, and the way they did it was ingenious. The table markers for each person was a plexiglass holder that took a photo strip produced by photo booth. I think the photo booth company provided the holders. All through the reception people went up and got their pics taken ... it was a real hit. I love these cheezy things because I sneak candids by reaching over the top to shoot the people goofing around inside ... LOL! Instead of a nightmare, it was an absolute blast that took nothing away from the main quest of documenting their wedding. This one was from WINK ( www.winkbooth.com).</p>

<p> </p><div>00XYWY-294331584.thumb.jpg.42401462277411d74cff884592535141.jpg</div>

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