Mother-in-laws and 3rd party complaints...

[elle_m]

<p>I was wondering if anyone else ever runs into this problem: the bride and groom are excited about the photos -- thrilled, even -- but a few weeks later you get a call from the mother of the groom or a third party with "complaints" (though always very veiled and passive aggressive). The gist is usually that there aren't enough photos of their son, nor enough formal/staged photos, nor enough photos of them.</p>

<p>I've experienced this maybe 3 times over the past season, but can't really figure out why, since a)I try to get ample coverage of both the bride and groom and their families (though the groom's family always seems to be less into it and if they opt out of "getting ready" coverage, the bride automatically gets more) and b)most weddings are focused on the bride anyway -- hard not to miss the gal in white.</p>

<p>Anyone else experience this oddity? Wondering if maybe it's just a random fluke of odds.</p>

[Jerry_]

<p>A wedding usually is for recording the bride-and-groom's special day. Anything else covered is a bonus, not a requirement - unless the bride does the requesting.</p>

<p>You may offer to photograph the third party for a setting fee and see how much they wish to spend on family portraits or photographs. That is part of being in business....</p>

<p> </p>

[picturesque]

<p>Oddities like the above are only oddities if you haven't managed expectations for all involved, including MOB and MOG. Stories about the MOB or MOG becoming angry over lack of formal or posed images when the couple told the photographer they didn't want any--are fairly common. I always discuss formal and posed photos with the couple, and if they aren't taking their parents' wishes into consideration, I make sure they do.</p>

<p>Also, on the day of the wedding, I usually can pick up any 'vibes' about group shots or expected shots from the MOB and MOG. If I do, I cover my rear and shoot a bit more posed shots. The couple is usually OK with it as long as I don't hold them up too long.</p>

<p>As for uneven coverage between bride and groom and/or their families, the families need to be fairly even. I consider it the photographer's job to make the coverage fairly even, unless members of one side or the other literally hide from you all day long. Coverage of the bride is, indeed, usually 'more' than the groom. I generally don't get any complaints about this aspect. Unless there are really no images of the groom alone, I wouldn't think this would be a big problem. In my experience, not a lot of grooms' parents would be angry if you didn't cover his every move getting ready, or his savoring the last moments of bachelorhood.</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>I make a point of speaking to both parents of the groom and both parents of the bride early in the day to let me know if there are any special shots that they would like. I also typical check with both sets of parents before checking-out with the B/G at the end of the event.</p>

<p>Judging from your comments, I doubt that it is either an oddity or a fluke of odds........</p>

[elle_m]

<p>To be honest, these three instances have come completely out of left field, considering (as I mentioned) I make a point of giving the same amount of coverage to both the bride and groom in terms of what photographs I take. If I take a photo of the bride alone, I take a photo of the groom alone, and so forth.</p>

<p>Thanks again, Nadine! I always try to accommodate requested photos at the time, and I do usually chat with all parties involved, but my job is to fulfill the wishes of the bride and groom first, and anyone else's, as Jerry says, come second, if time permits. Perhaps I will try a new approach in the future, to avoid any similar "complaints."</p>

<p>I spoke to a photographer friend of mine this evening, and she said she's had similar cases. She suggested that it may be a jealousy issue, though I'm not sure about that.</p>

<p>David, you always seem to get in a passive aggressive jab at most posters, myself included. I usually try to ignore your veiled insults... And now I'm almost inclined to just skip over your posts altogether because they make me feel bad. It's unfortunate, because you often have good advice.</p>

<p> </p>

[savagesax]

This is a sensitive subject and this is why I still do formals. I really don't like shooting formals for several reasons, but I won't bore everyone.

 

I actually have the bride and groom write down their requests, and also ask the parents for a Must Get shots. Sometimes guests travel from all parts of the world so these are shots that needed to be addressed. A lot of times I will do generation type of shots, the mothers with their siblings.

 

I shot a wedding about 8 years ago and the mother wanted lots of shots of her alone and with just about everyone of her friends. I was still shooting with Hasselblads and everytime I took a shot translated to a dollar. With digital it's not a big deal.

 

Anyway, make a list for yourself and have the couples, including the parents create a list too. At the wedding let the mothers as well as a lot of the guests know you you would be happy to take any photos they wish. To solve the problem of not knowing who everyone is have a bridesmaids hunt down the people.

 

This seems to work really well because about 1/2 of the weddings I get a tip at the end of the wedding. I'm not bragging about getting tips, it's an emotional feeling for me that I made people really happy on this special gathering.

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>The information is sound and just bluntly honest, I rarely sugar-coat anything. The key as Nadine alluded to is to manage expectations, not only for the B/G but the in-laws, outlaws, and all the rest. Even if you were completely balanced shooting one shot here of the groom and one shot there of the bride throughout the day, you can still have the perception that you favored "her side" of the family or "his side". Typically the bride receives the lion-share of the coverage and there's nothing inherently <em>"wrong" </em>with that.</p>

<p>What you may feel is passive-aggressiveness on my part is likely linked to my lack of tolerance of shooters who blame their "issues" on their clients, accusing them of being unreasonable...... or excusing poor exposures on being rushed by the bridal party or the "stress" of the moment, or the uncooperative groom, or the intoxicated guest, or the MOG, or the irritating videoguy and/or DJ, etc......</p>

<p>In the end, my guess is that if you treat both sets of parents (including the occasional 3rd or 4th set) as special, letting them know that you're available for requests and any special shots that they may want that your complaints about coverage balance and "even-ness" of coverage will evaporate. It did for me, many years and several hundred weddings ago. Perhaps YMMV.</p>

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p>if they aren't taking their parents' wishes into consideration, I make sure they do.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I think it's a tricky topic because in a lot of families there is a conflict between the couple/bride and his/her parents. Especially for some reason between the bride and her mother. Not just with photos - generally with the wedding. The bride wants one kind of wedding, her parents try to force something else on them, whether in terms of location, number of guests to invite, whether they have a cake - and the number and type of group photos to be taken. Sometimes ends with the bride in tears.</p>

<p>Often the bride is being told on all sides that they need to take the wishes of X, Y and Z into account, and as often as not they're getting annoyed about it.</p>

<p>My personal sympathy is with the bride and groom, in my view it's their day, and I do what they want. Of course, if the parents ask me to do something, I will do my best to do it, but I don't feel it's my place to try to push the bride into doing what their parents want. Asking for wish lists of photos from everyone involved is just inviting getting a huge list of 'must haves' with every possible combination under the sun.</p>

<p>Another aspect is that - the more one is running around taking the pictures that everyone wants you to take, the less you will be using your own discretion to take the kinds of pictures that the B&G hired you to take. Unless of course the B&G were attracted by your ability to do posed family shots, in which case fine. But I think that otherwise it should be the photographer who is using his/her discretion to find the most creative shots, not trying to locate Aunt Aggie because someone else thinks it would make a nice picture. It's the bride and groom's day, not their parents.</p>

<p>Of course, you want to be as diplomatic as possible and keep everyone at a wedding happy, parents included. If there is a guest that the B&G say they would like to capture, someone who's flown from the other side of the world, or is their nanny, then by all means make sure you photograph them during the day. But in my view (and it's just my view, I understand that others have a different approach), inviting lists of groups or 'must have' shots from all concerned, not just the B&G, is a recipe for a nightmare, and detrimental to the photography. And it opens up the possibility, if the lists are very long, of missing something out for one reason or another, which far from protecting you, just opens you up to criticism.</p>

<p>Of course, one doesn't want upset parents. But a basic list of formals that keep the parents happy, plus asking the B&G if there are any additional ones that will prevent family conflict, plus any requests from the B&G themselves, and looking out for all close family members during the day and doing your best to capture all of them informally, should be enough, without inviting all close family members to come up with their own lists of 'must haves'. In my view.</p>

[gregory_c]

<p>Welcome to wedding photography !!!</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>While I can be very empathic to the wants/needs of the B/G, and I also insist that regardless of who pays the bill the B/G are the ones who sign the contract, ultimately the wishes of the B/G trumps everyone else. However, thinking that the wedding is "all about" the bride or it's "all about" the B/G is very myopic IMO. Weddings are a family affair and it's not unusual to have a MOB that is more invested in many of the details than the bride is. Feelings of being left-out (or under-appreciated) can be very common with the MOG......such are the dynamics of weddings. Course if it's a destination wedding which excludes the families that would be a separate, special case.</p>

<p>I haven't used lists in many years. Giving the parents on both sides of the isle some consideration and attention doesn't take more than a few minutes and a few words in most cases. I've never had the parents request more than a half dozen special shots or groups which takes very little time. I have on occasion had disagreements (as in typical table shots: yes/no or the timing of the formals) between the B/G and parents but again this can be handled on a case by case basis with a little diplomacy and patience. I also would guess that older photographers who have had their own son or daughter go through the wedding process may be able to have more empathy with the parents than young shooters who may be even younger than the B/G. Steve Martin's film "Father of the Bride" does a pretty good job with the drama & comedy that many parents experience......with one of the studios that I worked it was required viewing :-)</p>

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p>thinking that the wedding is "all about" the bride or it's "all about" the B/G is very myopic IMO.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I (half) agree. There are plenty of other things to photograph other then the B&G, and if you just concentrate on photographing them, then you miss out on an awful lot of the interest. The B&G like to see what else is going on, things they don't get to see or don't notice, so I see it as part of my duty to the B&G not just to capture them - but to capture people important to them, things that would amuse them, and so on. And nearly all B&G's are keen to see that the people important to them are photographed somewhere along the line, preferably several times.</p>

<p>Then again - while the wedding is not all about the B&G, in my opinion it <strong>is</strong> the B&G's day. Not anyone else's, except to the extent the B&G tell me otherwise. Of course guests are important, MOBs, MOGs, FOGs and FOBs and everyone else is important - otherwise they wouldn't have been invited. But it's the B&G's day.</p>

<p>Having seen this with a number of friends, and sensed it with quite a few clients, I feel sorry for people who are getting married in a way that is dictated by their families. I was very lucky - having very relaxed and understanding parents and mother in law who had no problem at all with our own rather eccentric approach. Generally older couples seem much more confident in doing things the way that they want without feeling the need to give in to family pressures, and I think they tend to have the happiest and most fun weddings. Possibly because they are more likely to be paying for it, so less likely to give in to "we're paying for it so it has to be the way we want it" blackmail, or possibly because they know better what they want and are more confident at standing up for themselves, or both.</p>

<p>Which is maybe straying a bit from the topic of group photos - but my point is that I wouldn't try to push the B&G into feeling that they ought to ask everyone else to come up with their own lists of family photos. One couple did a while ago, and on the eve of the wedding all their relatives had their input and it ended up with over 30 mostly largish groups. The result was, there was no time for their portrait shoot, which was one of the main reasons why they had hired us. That was their choice, which was fine, but I wouldn't encourage it.</p>

 

[picturesque]

<p>Sure, it is a tricky topic. Like many things about shooting a wedding, one needs to use one's intuition, common sense, and experience in dealing with people. Not everyone will react the same way or be satisfied with the same things. Not every photographer shoots the same way either, and one's local culture will also have a great impact on how you end up handling such situations.</p>

<p>However, many of these issues can be avoided or at least mitigated by clear communications, anticipation of possible conflicts, and explanations of one's intended procedures ahead of time--what's called 'educating the client', or 'managing expectations'.</p>

<p>An example follows. Say a couple hires you (they sign the contract and are paying) to photograph their wedding because they like your PJ, unposed style. They tell you they don't want any posed shots and very few, if at all, family groups. Since you like to photograph this way, you think, "Great!", and proceed to photograph the day just as they directed. After the wedding, you get complaints from both families about the coverage of both the couple and the families.</p>

<p>Now, you could just blow the whole thing off since the couple paid you and they are happy. However, the MOB and MOG keep e-mailing you and some of the complaints begin to sound serious. And when you think about it, you realize that dissatisfied mothers can also write bad online reviews, which can directly affect your ability to get more work. Dissatisfied MOBs and MOGs can also break referral chains quite abruptly.</p>

<p>The fact of the matter is, the bride and groom are not the only people you have to satisfy. Like it or not, their families are also your clients and need to be satisfied, regardless of who signed the contract or is paying for the photography. But you don't need to become a milquetoast and fulfill every single photo request.</p>

<p>In the above example, if you are at all sensitive to the workings of female minds across the generations when it comes to weddings, you will instantly know that when the bride told you they (the couple) don't want many family group shots, there is ample potential for conflict. You can 1) do as directed by the couple, or 2) take requests from everyone, causing you to take a long time with posed shots and groups, creating a whole slew of other problems, or 3) take proactive steps to arrange a suitable compromise ahead of time so that the day not only flows smoothly, but everyone gets some of what they want.</p>

<p>Choice 3 is the only one that makes any sense and that has the potential for not only win-win situations for both photographer and clients, but multiplied benefits for the photographer because satisfied clients (all clients) mean positive referrals, increased smoothness and efficiency in wedding photography schedules, and increased confidence in the photographer by all. The latter is very, very important. Why not start building that confidence as early on as possible?</p>

<p>On the other hand, you need not ask for or accept long lists of posed shots or family groups. You can point out to whomever is submitting these lists/requests, that such a list would take x minutes/hours and that the list needs to be cut to x groups for the sake of the day's schedule and/or the couple's wishes. Most parents <strong>do</strong> want to please their children, and will willingly compromise, I find. At the very least, if you do accept lists, you will have arranged the schedule to accommodate the time needed. This is much, much better than not accepting any requests for anything, and then having to accommodate an insistent parent. Not only is the schedule 'down the tubes', but stress levels increase for all concerned, and confidence in the photographer plummets.</p>

<p>I personally ask for lists and requests. However, I don't accept all of them without analyzing how I can actually accomplish them, and of course, taking into account what the couple wants. My opinion is, it is better to know exactly what is requested, so that the lists/requests can be managed--cutting where appropriate--and enough time allowed.</p>

<p>This same kind of thinking also applies to even coverage of both sides of the family. I personally ask for a list of each family, by name and relation, so that I am prepared--at least I know there are grandmas and grandpas to be sure to cover, and I refer to my list, as well as other cheat sheet notes I've made, throughout the day. I don't think accepting lists and occasionally checking for complete coverage is necessarily a detriment to one's PJ or reportage coverage of the rest of the day. Simply put, if that is your style, still find out what will satisfy your clients, and arrange it so both can be accomplished. Hire a second shooter if necessary.</p>

<p>Re the groom's coverage. I would pay extra attention to this if I somehow picked up on the fact that this is important to the MOG or FOG. In one previous job, the groom was an only child and of immense importance to everyone in his family, including grandparents, etc. So I made sure to cover his photos very well. This is--common sense?</p>

<p>On another note, I have noticed that complaints are up for every kind of service these days, probably due to the poor economy. There are some people who will complain just to see if they can get cents off or have their way.</p>

[simon_crofts]

<p>I think it's a difference of emphasis rather than a fundamentally different approach. We also ask for a list of who's who which we carry with us. We also do group pictures which we would expect to include the key players. We also try to manage expectations, discuss with the couple if there are particular people who are especially important to capture. We also plan the timings of the group photos and try to make sure they're allowed for in the timetable (though it can happen that an unexpected raft of them are added a day or two before, or even on the day). If a relative wants a particular group photo and asks us, of course we will do it.</p>

<p>There is always the risk of a negative online review from someone who is offended for one reason or another - it is impossible to completely guard against it. But I think if you deliver beautiful, original pictures that capture the day perfectly, and do your best to include the key players and the key moments in a way that your clients can't fail to love, then that keeps the risk small.</p>

<p>For every Auntie who might grumble that there weren't enough group combinations, there's a guest or relative standing there getting cold and impatient desperate for a drink and praying for the group photo session to finish and making a mental note never to recommend the photographer to anyone... Maybe even the bride and groom are getting annoyed.</p>

<p>As far as referrals are concerned, I think this is also the best way to get them, just try to take the most beautiful pictures possible. I think it's important to concentrate on trying to do photography that people, when they see it, are going to think 'I want that at my wedding!', rather than 'is Auntie Maggie going to buy a print'. Important to concentrate on doing the photography that the couple hired you for. I think there's a risk of spending one's time running around trying to fulfil what one imagines everyone's expectations to be, rather than thinking about how to do things interestingly, beautifully and differently.</p>

<p>The ideal client for me is one that says: 'we trust you, just go and do things the way that you think best, and do whatever you think necessary'. In that case - does one want to draw up a long list of group shots that include every possible second cousin twice because it's the safest thing to do?</p>

<p>Of course, in theory a wedding photographer should be Superman and be everywhere, see everything, achieve everything, but the reality is that if you are concentrating on one thing - trying to locate the aunts and cousins on one side of the family while setting up your flash, it means you're not doing something else, which might be a better, more meaningful photo.</p>

<p>There's also the risk that if one puts too much emphasis on keeping clients happy via groups, that one will start getting referred and hired by couples who are looking for someone to do lots of traditional groups, and will end up being seen as specialising in that kind of thing.</p>

<p>So as Nadine says, it's a matter of managing expectations, but I would rather manage expectations away from group lists that everyone is encouraged to have input into, which I suppose is my point!</p>

<p>Sorry to ramble on.</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>I don't believe that it's any fundamental difference of emphasis or approach.....it's simply recognizing who the key people are and providing good customer service. Weddings are typically about a sacrament, tradition, families, and a new beginning for the B/G...... I haven't advocated a single list or suggested that everyone attending the wedding have a voice in setting up group photos. Yes, it is a matter of managing expectations and making sure that the parents feel that they are recognized, valued, and included. There's no reason to be a Superman and if you've established some rapport with the parents then it's easy to gain their assistance in rounding up Aunt Ethel or prying cousin Billy away from the bar for a quick family photo.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Simon--if you also do all the things I suggested ahead of the actual day, I'm not sure what *else* you are talking about re emphasis.</p>

<p>1. Your 'bad reviews can come from anywhere' argument goes back to knowing what is wanted, trimming it to manageable and agreeable portions and allowing enough time--so your person grumbling about needing a drink would not be grumbling about needing a drink. Of course, bad reviews can come from totally unreasonable people. That is always a risk. However, the possibility of dissatisfied MOBs and MOGs writing bad reviews is far greater than the odd unreasonable guest or relative tapping their foot.</p>

<p>2. Same for your 'taking pictures beautifully' comment. If everything has been set ahead of time--expectations stated and managed, you <strong>can</strong> take pictures beautifully.</p>

<p>3. If a client told me to do as I saw fit, I would do it. I may or may not ask for lists--it depends on what I perceive as potential trouble spots. This is where one's intuition comes into play.</p>

<p>4. Again--if things are set ahead of time, you would not be running to locate people. Along with the pre-planning, I cover such things as telling relatives to stay put after the ceremony, etc., and while it doesn't work all the time, it does in a great many cases. I tell people that I can shoot their family groups pretty fast, <strong>as long as everyone who should be there, is there</strong>. I explain to the couple the need to *hide* right after the ceremony, so guests can leave and we can most efficiently get the family shots done. This stops often "clueless" grooms from wading into the group of guests to chat, delaying the photo session by 20-30 minutes. On the other hand, if that is what they want to do (chat with their guests and spend the 20 minutes), they can. I will have planned for some other segment of time for the family groups agreed upon.</p>

<p>5. I agree that photographers can't be everywhere all the time, though. Again, if you want to be free from setting up flashes and dealing with group/posed shots, partner with a photographer wanting to shoot what you don't. Seems to me the best way to get close to being everywhere all the time. If you can't do that, then identifying (lists) and managing expectations is the next best thing. Of course, if you can get clients without having to do any groups or posed shots, that is also an alternative. I believe Neil Ambrose does very few groups, if at all.</p>

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p>if you can get clients without having to do any groups or posed shots, that is also an alternative</p>

</blockquote>

<p>As an aside, with the few clients that don't want any groups at all, the groups tend to happen spontaneously anyway. Most guests are so used to the concept that they start forming into lines and photographing each other.</p>

<p>I quite like the way we did it at our wedding - we formed ourselves into a big group with everyone in it, and asked a passing tourist to take the photo. She was amused, it was interestingly random, and she did a good job!</p>

 

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>I've experienced this maybe 3 times over the past season . . . Wondering if maybe it's just a random fluke of odds.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>What's that? 30 Weddings a Season? 60? so we are talking maybe 5% to 10% . . . maybe even more?<br>

That's worthwhile investigating.</p>

<p>I have found that the next most important customer to the B&G is usually the MOB and the MOG – and sometimes Grandma. I always attempted to be on a first name basis with the first two and kept it at “Grandma” or “Nanna” for the latter. If asked with confidence and a few ground rules – a quick word from time to time with these key players throughout the evening seemed always keep them pleased – if they wanted something else, something out of the ordinary or something extra - it was usually done.</p>

<p>Being absolutely hopeless with remembering names I kept a list of ALL the key names and the relationships. I think this could be important for the general “PJ” style shooter also.</p>

<p>Experiences vary and some client groups might be more demonstrative than others and want to take advantage – but I have not found this to be the case generally.</p>

<p>When shooting for about six to eight hours, I would find it odd not to converse with all of the key players – including the Dads and the Best-man and Bridesmaids and enquire with each individually, if there was anything else that could be done . . . it’s just good client service, good advertising and common sense: well to me, it is.</p>

<p>So, in answering <strong><em>“is this just a random fluke of the odds?”</em></strong> I suggest you look at both the communications before the event (primarily with the B&G obviously):<br>

but also look at <strong>your communications </strong>(and your <strong>inter-personal radar</strong>) . . . <strong><em>during the event</em> </strong>as these latter two, might be wanting.</p>

<p>WW<br>

</p>

[jc5066]

<p>First and foremost, unless she is on the contract I do not discuss such issues.</p>

[cliff_nj]

<p>Elle, you are brave to bring up complaints in this public forum, and it will help many photographers.<br>

If I received 3 similar complaints from 3 different weddings, I would definitely be analyzing/re-analyzing my approach. You have gotten very good advise here, certainly blunt, and 'managing client expectations' mixed with 'communicate,communicate, communicate' are common smart pieces of advise in any service biz.<br>

I bet the next time a bride says "oh, the groom doesn't want any photos before the ceremony", you will have a different answer.</p>

 

[savagesax]

Although the B&G may want a PJ style wedding, I have to tell the couple that it's often necessary to meet the families needs, such as group shots, sometimes doing the dreaded table shots, shots from the 80's such as double exposures, and perhaps dealing with the parents that have remarried. It can get confusing. A lot of parents still want the traditional shots, they want table shots so they can remember all of the guests that came to the wedding, and of course family shots to hang on their wall.

 

Since we are hired by the couple we kind of have to get the requested shots. This is why I usually carry a list.

[daverhaas]

<p>As William pointed out - 3 complaints out of how many weddings? 5? 10? 100?</p>

<p>Obviously something at those 3 weddings broke down and as pointed out several times - it was probably communication. </p>

<p>As many of the others who have posted here do - I talk to not only the bride and groom, but to the parents of both as well. Sometimes that's harder than it seems - since you could be dealing with multiple spousal units - some of whom aren't talking to each other since the divorce.</p>

<p>As a general practice - I allow an extra 1/2 hour for the formal shots before the ceremony - assuming that we're doing formals. This gives me time to get the extra family shots - whether it's Cousin Paul or Uncle Martin (thank you Paul M) - that plus the 1/2 hour dead time before the ceremony usually allows me to get the family shots that Mom's want.</p>

<p>Reading the vibe is important also - if I sense that one of the family's is not engaged - I make it a point to try and find out if this is intentional or accidental. If it's intentional - then I let it go... Accidential - I bring them in and get their photos. No matter which it is - I make sure I get the photos that they want (time permitting)</p>

<p>Dave</p>