Badmouthing to get clients...

[veeee]

<p> I had a potential client come to see my work last week, they found me from a website we advertise on and which also hosts other photographers.<br>

Both bride and groom loved my work, they've been to the competition and it's but never both had a consesus on the work, either the bride like this one and groom didn't or vice versa, but they both loved my work.<br>

During the meet, they asked about names of my competitors, I told them to check the site they found me on and most of the photogs there are good and reputable. Then they mentioned a photog, I worked with a few times, I said he's really good also. They asked how long I've been doing this, I said a few years 4-5. (although wedding we really hit them hard this year with the wedding shows, our first wedding experiance was 3 years ago and shooting other events and school was 4 - 5 years in the making so that's why I say 4-5 and our portfolio took us that long to create) So as they were really pleased with our work buy they just needed time to check other photogs out, the bride said she wanted to be sure when they sign and not a doubt in her mind. She said she will contact us in a few days after she when they'sv made their minds up, and if they decide to go with another photog, they will still let us know just so we aren't left hanging, which I think is very thoughful of them, especially for feedback purpose.<br>

Well I got a call from them yesterday evening stating they've decided to go with us, but had one question, although it really didn't matter since they like our work. They said that one of the photogs said we were in the business just for one year. Yes true we signed up with a particual wedding mag for a year but our site has been up for 3 and we've persuing this for around 3-4 with the earliest interest 5 years ago. This is our biggest year. I told the bride that yes we've signed up with this directory for since this year, but no we've been persuing this for the last few years and our portfolio shows that.<br>

I also mentioned to her that we don't badmouth our competition to procure clients, we find it in bad taste. Just as in the intial meeting she asked about my competition I gave her positive input on one of the photogs, and said most photogs out ther are awesome, it's just what style you see your self in and what style you prefer. She then mentioned that even they are weerie of vendors who bad mouth other vendors.<br>

So it goes to show that bad mouthing your competition just verifies your own incompetence and lack of confidence in your own work and negative personality.<br>

If your work is steller than let it speak for itself, clients will comeback to you after checking the competion out, I even gave her names of few of the other photogs, that I think are steller competion because I'm confident in my stlye and work, and want clients to come to me out of a desire of my work rather than not seeing whats out there and being blind sighted or tunnel visioned by just seeing a few of them.<br>

I once sent a couple home after the groom said the bride never saw my site and blog, she was just trusing the the finace, and the finace is a friend of a friend. I told her to not sign today go home and check the site and blog out and then come back if they like my work, and it's not like I gave a massive discount or anything. But yes they came back to sign.<br>

So after a client returns from making rounds of your competion, you feel a satisfaction, a content and a new selfworth emerges from procuring this client amidst a storm of competetion.</p>

 

[daverhaas]

<p>I'm a firm believer in Karma - good and bad. </p>

<p>I never say a bad thing about a competitor - I present my prices and the things I don't charge for and the things that I include with my packages. I let the customer / prospect make the call themselves.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[robertbanks]

<p>I think you acted honestly and professionally.<br>

You just have to accept that in a competitive market not everyone will do so, unfortunately :(<br>

Sounds like the other 'tog was either trying to plant a seed of doubt in the bride's mind, or maybe they genuinely thought you'd only been around for a year.<br>

You should be proud that you don't let the lower standards of others affect your own integrity.</p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>one of the photogs said we were in the business just for one year. Yes true we signed up with a particual wedding mag for a year... ...I told the bride that yes we've signed up with this directory for since this year</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Your story provides no indication that the person purposely misrepresented any facts. Indeed it supports the possibility that the person was merely mistaken. If that is the case, then you did what they did. Represented facts about another photographer that are not accurate.</p>

<p>Also, you don't present information about the context of the discussion and don't account for the re-interpretation a potential client may give. A discussion may have ensued where experience may have come up and the potential client may even have asked for comparisons. That's not unheard of. Who knows how it was discussed? A client can easily couch it as a mention of "only" one year or change the context in other ways despite good intentions. This is something people do all the time.</p>

<p>Finally, a discussion of someone being in business for only a year is not necessarily "bad mouthing". Especially when experience is raised in a consult which is fair game. Comparing what photographers does, has, charges and delivers is all normal and valid. The only thing 'bad' was a misrepresentation of the time in business. As mentioned above, you provided no information indicating that it was intentional. I gather, if you knew it to be a purposeful lie, you would have fleshed out the story a bit more considering the length of the post overall.</p>

<p>Who is badmouthing who?</p>

[michael_krouskop]

<p>So what about this situation:<br>

There are several photographers in Nashville who have shot very few weddings but have amazing images on their sites. Some of the photographers have the same "weddings" posted on their galleries. Different shots, but the same "wedding". The photos on their sites are from staged weddings, where a couple of photographers working with models set up amazing shots in amazing locations. Very few brides would know that these weddings are not real. I have no problem telling brides that certain photographers have presented themselves as wedding photographers, when in reality, they have little experience shooting weddings. I always direct my brides to look at the entire weddings I shoot, 800 images from one wedding so they can see the coverage I provide in all conditions. <br>

I think there is a difference between bad mouthing and telling the truth. I hear the sad stories all the time about hiring these fake wedding photographers. The couples always tell me the images they received looked nothing like what they were presented in the initial meetings. <br>

Another thing I notice in Nashville is that photographers post photos on their site from weddings all over the world and then you find out they have never left the state. The images are taken off of websites from other photographers and presented as their own. It is very suspect when all the images from weddings have palm trees in the background and the photographer lives and works in Nashville.</p>

[john_h.1]

<p>I'm wouldn't equate those situations with the one here at all but, yes, comparing and contrasting is a normal part of competitive business. Not necessary but not improper either.</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p><em>"........one of the photogs said we were in the business just for one year. Yes true we signed up with a particual wedding mag for a year but our site has been up for 3 and we've persuing this for around 3-4 with the earliest interest 5 years ago. This is our biggest year. I told the bride that yes we've signed up with this directory for since this year, but no we've been persuing this for the last few years and our portfolio shows that." </em></p>

<p>I'm not clear from this just what your experience is shooting weddings, but on the face of this, it appears to me that you've been embellishing your actual experience, which IMO, is dishonest. I've frequently noticed new shooters who have "padded" their resumes and embellished their actual experience. I'm always warning brides that before they sign with anyone to be sure to see several full weddings so that they have a good sampling of what they can expect on their day.</p>

[joshroot]

<blockquote>

<p>Finally, a discussion of someone being in business for only a year is not necessarily "bad mouthing". Especially when experience is raised in a consult which is fair game. Comparing what photographers does, has, charges and delivers is all normal and valid. The only thing 'bad' was a misrepresentation of the time in business. As mentioned above, you provided no information indicating that it was intentional. I gather, if you knew it to be a purposeful lie, you would have fleshed out the story a bit more considering the length of the post overall.<br /> Who is badmouthing who?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Except for the fact that, what reason would the "other guy" have had to say such a thing except to try and make himself look better by casting Veej (who the bride was already interested in) in a bad light by making him looked inexperienced? It doesn't matter a whole lot if the guy thought he was telling the truth or knew it wasn't true. He was selling himself by talking down someone else.</p>

<p>But welcome to the world of "salesmenship". If the worst a competitor says about you is a "yeah I guess that's technically accurate" version of the truth, you are doing pretty well. At least he wasn't telling the bride that he saw you get drunk at a reception and hit on the mother of the bride (that's the rumor I spread about myself to avoid being asked to do wedding work any more).</p>

[sherijohnson]

<p>you are so right about everything you said, good job!</p>

[ianivey]

<p>If the client asked you for your opinion about a photographer whose work you knew was poor, but perhaps whose web site presented deceptively good samples, what would you say? </p>

<p>It is possible to behave with high integrity while criticizing the work of competitors. It is also possible to do a serious disservice to a bride and groom by failing to warn them away from vendors you have reason to believe will fail to meet expectations. </p>

<p>It is neither necessary nor winsome to spend a great deal of time talking about how bad other competitors are. However, I suggest that it <em>is </em>good form to respond honestly to a pointed question about a competitor even if your opinion is critical. In such cases, you could likely build trust with the prospective client who wants to comparison-shop if you suggest an alternate competitor as a better option: "Well, I know two couples who were very unhappy with Al's work, so I cannot recommend him, but for that price, you might consider Bill, whose work I believe is reliable."</p>

<p>Of course, your job is not to guide prospective clients to other photographers; but it is possible to serve prospective clients poorly by refusing to discuss competitors' weaknesses at all.</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>So how long have you been shooting weddings? <a href="00SMjT">http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00SMjT</a></p>

[ianivey]

<p>Now, David, don't be mean. If his first <strong><em>paid </em></strong>wedding was a year and a half ago, he could easily have been "shooting weddings" for three years.</p>

<p>Josh wrote:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>At least he wasn't telling the bride that he saw you get drunk at a reception and hit on the mother of the bride (that's the rumor I spread about myself to avoid being asked to do wedding work any more).</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This is <a href="

rumor, folks</a> (video cuts out just before he pulls the bride's mom, who comes over to help, in for a big wet kiss). Man, my wife's mom was so angry. Though she did comment that Josh is an excellent kisser.</p>

<p><em>-- EDITED to respond accurately to what I originally misread as "hit the mother of the bride." Woulda been funnier if I'd got it right the first time. --</em></p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>what reason would the "other guy" have had to say such a thing except to try and make himself look better</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's the probable reason. But it's unusual that the other photographer just happened to mention Veej. That suggests a strong possibility that the potential client was the one that initiated the discussion. Whether the client merely mentioned the name in passing and a comment was made or the potential client asked for comparisons, we don't know. While more experience doesn't necessarily make a particular photographer better, its a fair factor for consideration. Anyway, Its not clear if the situation or any "talking down" is quite as bad as suggested or rant worthy. But the nature of competitive etiquette in the industry is a good discussion to have I think.</p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p><em><strong>But the nature of competitive etiquette in the industry is a good discussion to have I think.</strong></em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>I agree.</p>

<p>I avoid it. It is that simple. IMO it also gives me greater levearge and also a filter to weed out Clients I would not want to have. anyway. </p>

<p>My take on when I am asked about other Photographers is usually something like:<br>

“it is best that we discuss all that I can provide for you –<br />I am more closely acquainted with what we do than any other Photographer: so about our business it is best to ask me.<br />And as I am too busy with my own work to go about gathering great bundles of information about other Photographers - it is best you ask them, about their Products and services.</p>

<p>But David Schilling has posed a really good question. . .</p>

<p>WW</p>

[john_h.1]

<p>David's question is interesting in this particular instance but I find his comment below interesting for other situations...</p>

<p><em>"I'm always warning brides that before they sign with anyone to be sure to see several full weddings so that they have a good sampling of what they can expect on their day."</em></p>

<p>It avoids referencing any particular photographer by name but is, in my view, a helpful recommendation in general. It may place photographers lacking such samples in a less than positive light however. What is you impression about presenting general attributes to look for in a photographer but not identifying anybody individually? Does that stray from discussing your own business or is it consistent?<em><br /></em></p>

[juanita_ramirez]

<p>I agree with David Schilling that you should ask to see several weddings and make a decision based on that.</p>

<p>Years of experience, working for an established studio, or other factors will not give your clients meaningful information about the skill of the photographer. Only seeing a significant amount of photos from a few different weddings with different lighting circumstances can really clue you in to the skill of your photographer.</p>

<p>With a big studio, you might not be getting the "named partner," to actually shoot your wedding. You might just be getting an inexperienced associate. In a situation like that you need to be extremely careful, because they may present the portfolio of an experienced professional and then send the inexperienced kid out to your wedding. On the flip side, I have seen very experienced "professionals" whose business skills have allowed them to remain in the industry for a number of years but whose photographic skills should have kicked them off the train a while back.</p>

<p>Certainly one always has to be careful about hiring a new photographer with no formal studio and little reputation, but, my point is that even hiring an established studio isn't an automatic guarantee of good work. Always look at the portfolio. Even a studio that produces technically sound photos may have an old-mannish artistic flavor that will not be appealing to your personal style.</p>

<p>My ultimate point is, tell clients honestly how long you've been in business. If you shot one wedding 5 years ago and 2 weddings 4 years ago, tell them that you didn't do much business a few years ago, but talk about how things have taken off for you in the last year or two. Tell them how you have a fresh perspective and that you are more responsive to the current photography trends. I think it's a great chance to tell your clients to look at your recent work and decide if this is something they want. If they are harping on experience, I would tell them to compare your work to what they see at some of the big studios and make a decision.</p>

<p>I always win when compared apples to apples against the big local shops. Explain that when you are the only one doing the work you have a lot tighter handle on quality control. Explain how you have a both good technical skills and a fresh vision. It think it's actually much easier to sell your youthful vision and technically sound photos against "30 years experience" and a lecture on why a reasonable person couldn't possibly pass over an established studio.</p>

<p>Don't let the [naysayers] get you down.</p>

<p>I have not qualms with telling people to look at portfolios and thereby letting clients discriminate against those who have weak portfolios. If someone asks me about another photographer I will give an honest assesment. I don't have a problem, however, with selling myself favorably against my competitors. That's a reasonable choice. You don't have to tear down competitors to explain why you might be the better choice.</p>

[karl_knographer]

<p>Veej, it may or may not be poor form to speak negatively about a competitor, only you can decide. Personally, I avoid it. But for God's sake, whatever else you do, don't post any images here with blown highlights or you're toast my friend. Toast! The highlight police are watching you now, and it won't be pretty.</p>

[matt_needham]

<p>It's like politicians. Who do you prefer? The politician who bad mouths the other side or the politician who explains what they can do for you? </p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>“<strong><em>What is [your] impression about presenting general attributes to look for in a photographer but not identifying anybody individually? Does that stray from discussing your own business or is it consistent?”</em></strong></p>

</blockquote>

<p><strong><em> </em></strong><br>

I cannot recall I have discussed with any Prospect of mine, in even minor detail, any other Photographers, or the Products or Services a Prospect should look for, in other Photographers.</p>

<p>I grew up in a Family and extended Family, most of whom were engaged in Private Enterprise – all small businesses. Whilst various in discipline, all had the same mantra re this point: Concentrate on your own business – not theirs. Sell your own Service – not theirs. Talk about your own Product – not theirs.</p>

<p>In the specific example you cite: if a Wedding Prospect were to bring up the topic of experience, I would establish mine. If a Prospect were to ask about another’s experience, I would say: “ask him/her.” If a Prospect were to ask me if another had enough experience to adequately shoot a Wedding, I would answer something like: “that is you decision”.</p>

<p>As some are aware, we have another business, different to Photography. The same rules apply there too. Part of that other business is a Retail Outlet – an environment where Customers can easily and often do ask for “opinions” on like, but other branded Products which we do not sell. (Our staff are instructed to politely refuse to comment): it is interesting to note that when the Customer is made responsible for decision and to seek source information to make those decisions, how, in the majority of cases, they become more acutely aware and more decisively critical and more attentive to us: and often if they do not purchase then are there, they usually return to buy later and (my guess is) because they went to compare and the other business was more intent on making “comparisons” rather than selling on their own virtues.</p>

<p>That is not to say that some Prospects walk out because they are not prepared to make the commitment of owning the decision or doing the work for it – but as I stated in my first comment here, this standpoint serves as a filter, also.</p>

<p>I understand and appreciate the selling technique (and the social & community value) of educating the Prospective Client – the Bride to be - in what to look for and instructing them of pit-falls to look out for and etc. I make no critisism of the (selling) technique or the community and goodwill value of "educating" clients about these broader issues and how these matters apply to my (possible) business competion. <br>

I do that too.<br>

I do that here.<br>

I do that for Family or Friends whom I will NOT engage as Clients.<br>

I do that when I talk to Colleagues and when I mentor or when I teach: but I <strong><em>do not discuss other businesses</em></strong> when I am face to face and toe to toe with a Prospective Client or Current Customer. </p>

<p>WW</p>

<p> </p>

[richardsnow]

<p>Veej -- I can only equate what you're going through with what I do for a living...most of you here know that my "real" job is selling cars.</p>

<p>The dealership I work at is a very successful dealership in a small city. The closest dealership with the same make is eight miles away in the largest "metro" area in the state. We've heard all sorts of things that dealer supposedly says about us. It's what you get when you're successful and good at what you do. </p>

<p>For me, when someone asks my opinion of that particular dealership, or any other dealership selling the Subaru product line, my response is always the same...very PC, and never badmouthing them. Here's how it goes, see you can adapt it to fit your photography:</p>

<p><strong>CUSTOMER:</strong> So what do you think of the dealership down the road? -OR- So why shouldn't I just go buy my car down the road?</p>

<p><strong>ME: </strong>Mr/Mrs Customer, please understand that the product I sell out on the lot is exactly the same here as it is down the road. It's the product I sell inside these four walls that makes us different. You can go buy your car anywhere and I know exactly what you'll get from the car, but only here can I tell you what you're going to get from this dealership...and more importantly, what you're going to get from me. I think the product you get from our cars is the best in the industry. I think the product you get inside these four walls is better than anywhere else. Here's why... ... ... </p>

<p><strong><em>Another example:</em></strong></p>

<p><strong>Customer:</strong> Did you know that Dealership X says XYZ about you?<br>

<strong>ME:</strong> Folks, I've heard that before, is there anything that I've done to make that true? -OR- Have I/we made you feel that way?<br>

<strong>Customer:</strong> No<br>

<strong>ME:</strong> Then it doesn't matter what they said. They're the competition and if that's the way they want to do business, that's fine. We've chosen to do things in a different way. Here's what I can tell you about our dealership.</p>

<p>Then I explain what makes our dealership different.</p>

<p>You can use exactly the same script, just adapt it for your photography. Some people test your integrity by saying things to see if you'll badmouth the competition...and if you do, it could lose you the sale. It's all about Karma...make it positive.</p>

<p>RS</p>