Definite answers to 203FE using C lens

[dennis_ng]

<p>After getting my 203fe and waiting for its delivery, I found that my original assumptions of that camera is in doubt after reading some postings around the net. May I confirm, for the ease for mind and possibly for future buyers as below:</p>

<p>a) You can meter using C lens using A mode and transfer metering</p>

<p>Obviously as there is no link between lens and camera, you have to set the mode to A and transfer the meter reading. Unless you set to stop down mode, the lens is at its widest lens (F4 in case of 50mm and 150mm, F3.5 for 100mm and F5.6 for 250mm, all C lens). Hence, you transfer the meter reading to corresponding to it. For example, meter read 250 and using 50mm, set 250 and align with F4 in your C lens. Not sure why it is not M mode but I just follow the instruction, as long as it works.</p>

<p>Q: The only issue is it assumes you use C mode (on the speed dial). What happen if you use F mode. Would the meter work?</p>

<p>b) It is better to use C mode for C lens</p>

<p>You can sync up to 1/500.<br>

Also, MLU means that you can use very slow speed. The operation of the camera is that if you use mirror pre-release (not exactly MLU), the mirror goes up and the focal plan shutter open. Hence, you got the full benefit of no vibration of leaf shutter as it is only your hand/breath plus the leaf shutter that moves, on top of the subject -- down to 1/15 is handholdable.</p>

<p>c) Completely battery free operation is Possible using C mode with C lens</p>

<p>You do not need any battery if you use C mode with C lens. It would work like a 500 camera. I guess the battery mainly drive the meter, but what happens to the focal plan shutter? Does it need battery as well?</p>

<p>Q: can this be confirmed?</p>

<p>d) You can use focal plan shutter with C lens in F mode</p>

<p>Hasselblad said not recommended but you can. Some said that it just might not sync in time, even though you have to set the lens to B and I guess you have to stop down the lens, like CF lens. This is the only thing I do not understand. If the lens is B and the apeture is stop down, what is the sync issue?<br>

<br />Q: can this be confirmed? What happen to the metering mode. Should it be A or M here?</p>

<p>If anyone has a 203FE around and a old C lens, mind to test it to ease my mind and for the records.</p>

<p>Would have the test result later if the camera delivered on time for my getting away in 2 weeks' time. Otherwise, it would be 2 months later. I only have 4 old C lens, non T* 3 of them except 100mm F3.5.</p>

 

[q.g._de_bakker]

<p>The best way to find the answers to your questions is by <a href="http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/HW/HWVSys.aspx">reading the manual</a> and believing what the people who made the machine are telling you...! ;-)<br />Have a look at the manual, and come back to get rid of any uncertainties reading the thing may have left you with after you did.</p>

[dennis_ng]

<p>Thanks. There is exactly one page in the manual and other than abosrbing that as one is not recommended to use C lens and some minor option, there is not much information there.<br>

A used 203fe is same price as a used M8. much more expensive than a lot of camera. I really jumped into it. Whilst waiting, I guess I just posted these facts and questions, after research for a few days now. <br>

Even if there is operation, there is no explanation which sometimes important to look at for issues. For example, it is NOT recommended to use C lens on 203fe. As I try to understand it, the leaf shutter is disabled at B. Is it because the system will engage stop down function and sometimes C lens is not fast enough (even at B to stop down) so that it is not recommended. If so, can one use manual stop down and the focal shutter would be "perfectly usable". If no stop down is involved, I would be at lost as the lens does not<br>

Another issue not answered in the manual is whether you can use 203fe without battery. <br>

I do not need to find everywhere on the net to get the information, sometime not right. One Hasselblad US guy has answered in a forum in 2004 I think that the 203fe meter does not work with C lens which is not completely true, as http://www.photoethnography.com/ClassicCameras/index-frameset.html?Hasselblad500.html~mainFrame has said quite sure about that.<br>

I tried to document it in one place. If someone else can answer it, it is fine. If not, I would test it using my Polaroid before committing my E6 rolls.</p>

 

[q.g._de_bakker]

<p>Ok, then first the recommendation not to use C lenses.<br>

It is based on the assumption that they are old, and may take too long to close. The timing between the focal plane shutter (which will act as the auxillary rear shutter in a 500-series camera) and the old, slow lens shutter could be (!) off, leading to effects you would not want to see on your film.<br>

(The leaf shutter, by the way, is not disabled at B. It is still working, still closing and opening. Only the timing mechanism has been disengaged, switched to the release button. CF and CFE/CFi lenses have a switch that 'unhooks' and disables the leaf shutter.)</p>

<p>But that assumption of course doesn't have to be correct. A well serviced, well functioning Synchro Compur in a C lens will be just as good for use on a 200-series camera as the shutters in later CF and CFE/CFi lenses.<br>

So ignore it for now, try how the C lenses work, and remember it should you ever find strange exposures on the films you run through the 203 with C lens attached.</p>

<p>You can use stop down metering and the focal plane shutter for exposure.<br>

But since the viewfinder image does not return until you open the leaf shutter, you might as well use the leaf shutter for exposure and set the camera to "C". (Except when you need speeds faster than 1/50, of course.)<br>

That wil<br>

l also minimize the risk of the two shutters running out of synch (the thing talked about above).</p>

<p>The 203 FE will work perfectly fine without battery, but it has to be set to "C", and you obviously lose the meter.<br>

The mter will work with battery and the camera set to C. No problem</p>

[dennis_ng]

<p>Very good. That is the answers I want to get. Would test my lens (4 of them, all C) on my "new" 203Fe once it arrives.<br>

I guess the 100 F3.5 is just CLA and should be fine. The others if problem I would try CLA first (as they would help even on C mode). Then might be gradually replace them with newer one if it is an issue. But I have to wait a bit as the 203fe is not exactly cheap and non-C lens are also quite a bit expensive these days.<br>

Thanks.</p>

<p> </p>

[dennis_ng]

After testing for a bit, my experience so far is

 

- non battery ops is ok

 

- not mention anywhere but after you click, the lens back to wide open (and also when on it, you cannot close down the apertue). This proves to be most inconvenience. Not sure that will be the case for cf or cfe lens. Very inconvenient indeed.

 

- need to get the leaf shutter to open even with auto mirror up

 

 

 

- you can use focal print shutter as long as

 

. C lens on B

 

. Camera shutter ring on 1s

 

. No timer mode on body but mirror lock ok

 

. all A, D, M mode works

 

- C lens work on C mode except

 

. Mode D does not work

 

. Timer on body does not work

[dennis_ng]

The shutter on B would not work as it is really B even on A or D mode.

 

But it seemed you can set it to any speed say 2000 and the focal plan seems

to work using A and D mode. I still like to set it on 1s as you can feel itnpark

there but seems non-essential.

 

Btw the original hassey manual only NOT recommend for cold weather only

but the weidi hassey manual does not talk about it.

 

I really has to remind about the non-stop down in metering but the camera will stop down when taking photos. That is an issue with me with Pentax 67 but here the problem is pain as altering taking a photo it will go back to wide open. Remember this.

 

Still, using C lens which is much cheaper to buy even with CLA that I think I will and can wait a bit before the 110f2. But I really want to know the difference of cf CFi cfe in terms of operation.

 

Can they remain stop down.?

[q.g._de_bakker]

<p>Dennis,</p>

<p><em>"not mention anywhere but after you click, the lens back to wide open (and also when on it, you cannot close down the apertue). This proves to be most inconvenience. Not sure that will be the case for cf or cfe lens. Very inconvenient indeed."</em></p>

<p>I'm not quite sure i understand what you mean, but you can open and close the aperture at will with C lenses too.<br>

Closing the aperture to working aperture is easy: just use the stop down lever (you know the thing, on the right side of the lens, near the tab that decouples the shutterspeed and aperture rings).<br>

Opening up again involves a bit more work. You either fire and recock the shutter, or have to turn the aperture ring to the widest aperture, then set it to the setting you need again.<br>

That should work as often as you like.</p>

<p>If that last thing is what you meant, i.e. the lens goes wide open again after you release the shutter: yes. If you want it shut to working aperture, you will have to stop it down manually again.<br>

Later lenses behave differently. The stop down lever closes and opens the aperture whenever you use it, and the thing will go shut again after cocking the shutter, if the lever is set in the closed position.</p>

<p>And yes, you're right that there is little point in the quick return mirror when using leaf shutter lenses (unless in "F" mode - only found on CF, CFE and CFi lenses).</p>

<p>The camera shutterspeed ring should be set to "C", not 1 second, when using leaf shutter lenses. In "C" mode, the timing of the first focal plane shutter curtain release is different. </p>

<p>You can use the focal plane shutter to time your expsoures, but you have to set the shutter in the "C" lens to B.</p>

<p>CF and CFi (and CFE) lenses allow you to switch the shutter in the lens off ("F" mode). All that works then is the diaphragm.<br>

You can, of course, also use the shutter in the lens to time the exposure. But then you have to set the camera to "C".</p>

<p>As mentioned above, if you have closed the aperture to working aperture using the stop down lever, it will still be stopped down after you have taken a picture.</p>

<p>CFE lenses have the Databus contacts that transmit aperture info to the metering electronics in the camera, so they don't need to be used stopped down.</p>

<p>When you do look for a 110 mm lens, make sure it's an FE lens, not F, or else you will be using stop down metering still... ;-)</p>

 

[dennis_ng]

<p>Thanks again.</p>

<p>"As mentioned above, if you have closed the aperture to working aperture using the stop down lever, it will still be stopped down after you have taken a picture."</p>

<p>That is the feature difference between C lens vs E lens (and CFI I think) but it will cost you over 1000 quid (at least last time I checked the difference between a used C lens and a E lens) for this stop down metering (with a wider maximum aperture lens). It can wait a bit as medium format depth of field is ok shallow to me. But I will still save for 1 lens the 110 Fe I guess. </p>

<p>I am not sure about what you said about the CF lens. I bet they only stay on the aperture, say, F8 after it shoots but it has to go back to wide open, say F4, after shooting. That means you still have to remember to push the stop down lever! In this case, from the operation point of view, I do not see much difference between the lens that is 500 quid more expensive, as CF vs C lens. Does it remove only the restriction that you can't push the stop down lever at wide open aperture? Even if it does, it does not need for me to pay 500 quid each to replace my 4 C lens (50,100,150and250). If it does not, really not sure it will be on my list. Just use a lens hold would be ok.</p>

<p>To repeat, under C lens, you have to push the lever, stop it down to the aperture and meter. After you take a picture, your aperture goes back to wide open i.e. non-stop down mode but the aperture ring stays it is. You have to remember to push the lever to stop down the aperture for the meter to work right. (One may do some focusing first whilst at the wider aperture but one would forget to push, the major reason to get to E lens but nothing to do with CF lens though.)</p>

<p>In real life, it means that you always have to watch out for the push level. </p>

<p>Some said in this forum to stay on wide open. It is ok as the stop down does not affect you. Just to remember, when once you want to change the aperture, you have to change the aperture ring then push the lever (you can push the stop down lever first, as it cannot stop down on wide open). Otherwise, you have to stop down meter issue again.</p>

<p>But given CF lens have this issue as well (remember to stop down), I would not spend money on it. I was surprised by this because I think my next target seems to be CF lens to gradually replace my C lens. Replacing it with CFI and CFE or FE lens etc. would take a long time. May be work on 8x10 in the mea time and when I am old enough not able to do it, I can save enough to get the E lens.<br>

The timer is a bugger as I used it a lot as well like Karen Nakamura on my Pentax 67, also a camera I got because of her (http://www.photoethnography.com/ClassicCameras/index-frameset.html?Hasselblad200.html~mainFrame which is the site introduce to me Hasselblad details; only recently I got hold of the Hasselblad Manual by Wildi)<br>

"I use the 2-second mirror-up/self-timer function a lot for macro, low-light, and "flowing water" photographs. It's very nicely thought out."</p>

<p>For setting to 1 sec (or any speed but B or C), this is necessary to make the F shutter work as C is to use leaf shutter and B is really B focal shutter speed. Hence you have do the others. Once F shutter is enabled, you can use the D feature work. Just really have to remember the stop down lever, otherwise you have big trouble.</p>

<p> </p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

<p><em>"That is the feature difference between C lens vs E lens (and CFI I think) but it will cost you over 1000 quid (at least last time I checked the difference between a used C lens and a E lens) for this stop down metering (with a wider maximum aperture lens). "</em></p>

<p>It's the difference between a C lens and any other lens, CF, CFi, CFE, F, FE.<br>

The difference between CFE and FE lenses and the other ones is that they have the Databus, and you can meter wide open.</p>

<p><em>"I am not sure about what you said about the CF lens. I bet they only stay on the aperture, say, F8 after it shoots but it has to go back to wide open, say F4, after shooting. That means you still have to remember to push the stop down lever!"</em></p>

<p>No, no, Dennis.<br>

Only the C lenses open up again after the camera is wound. The others' aperture stays in (or returns to) the state it was before you pressed the release button.</p>

<p>So CF lenses (nor any lens, other than the C) do not have that issue you have with your C lens!</p>

<p>Setting the focal plane shutter to 1 second is <strong><em>not</em></strong> necessary to make the focal plane shutter work as it should with a C lens attached and you are using the leaf shutter.<br>

The "C" setting on the focal plane's shutterspeed ring is what you then <em>must</em> use. The difference between it and the focal plane shutter's "B" is the thing i mentioned about the timing of the first curtain release. So do use the "C" mode when using the shutter in the C lens!<br>

Using the focal plane shutter in any mode but "M", with the leaf shutter in the lens set to "B", it doesn't really matter what speed is set. 1 second will indeed be fine.</p>

[dennis_ng]

To use focal plan shutter you have to use a speed on the camera

body 1 up to 1/2000 sec.

 

You cannot use C as this will rely on c leaf shutter on the lens. You

cannot use B as it will involve b mode of camera body focal plan

shutter.

 

Stop down meter require e lens.

 

The issue is whether cf lens will auto stop down. If not, it help the

metering but then it affects focusing. (This is a surprise as auto close down is the norm.) C lens will auto shut down,

help focusing but not metering.

 

As thus is pro and cons here, it is not a clean cut case to spend the

money to upgrade from c to cf. Only e lens is important here for lens upgrade if you start from c lens and get a 203fe like me.

 

Right?

[q.g._de_bakker]

<p>Dennis,</p>

<p>As mentioned before:<br>

(...)E lenses do not require stop down metering. They transmit aperture data to the metering electronics.<br>

But even with (...)E lenses you could do stop down metering.<br>

Non-(...)E lenses do require stop down metering, since they don't have the Databus.</p>

<p>And as also mentioned before:<br>

CF and later lenses do remain stopped down for as long as you keep the stop down lever in the stopped down position.</p>

<p>All (!) lenses, from C to the latest CFE/CFi, plus F and FE, have an automatic diaphragm, i.e. stop down automatically when you take the picture.</p>

<p>If you want to take full advantage of the 203's metering system, and do that most conveniently, you would indeed best invest in FE or CFE lenses.</p>

[dennis_ng]

<p>Thanks once again for the reply.</p>

<p>I think whilst there are advantage to CF, CFI (which is nonE) and F, I would wait for my chance to accumulate lens on FE or CFE lens. In fact CFE lens seems to be the best of both world (except gems like 110 FE).</p>

<p> </p>