Comparing the trio: Mamiya 645 Pro TL vs Bronica ETRS vs Pentax 645N

[artyom_liss]

<p>Over the last three weeks, I have been lucky enough to experiment with what are, probably, the three most popular 6X4.5 systems around: a Mamiya Pro TL, a Pentax 645N, and a Bronica ETRS. The Mamiya and the Pentax were rented from a shop; the Bronica - from somebody I met on one of the forums.<br>

I know most of what I'm going to say will be old news to people reading this forum - but, who knows, it might give those who are only just considering their first steps in MF something to think about.<br>

Also, I am not comparing picture quality here. All three deliver brilliant results. If you want to be really picky and subjective, I think the Mamiya was the sharpest of all, the Bronica was "lyrical" and less contrasty, while the pix from the Pentax seemed sharp and yet - to my eye - a bit too "cold" and "removed". Like I said, this is all purely subjective. Other people, I'm sure, will rate them differently.<br>

I will only talk about the ergonomics - what the three cameras feel like in day-to-day usage. Again, these are purely my observations. I'm sure other people will have other things to say.<br>

So - for the pros and the cons.<br>

<strong>Mamiya 645 Pro TL, 80/2.8/FE401 metering prism/motor winder.</strong><br>

Pros<br>

- Easy to understand and convenient metering system with the averaging mode and the spot mode<br />- The right weight to shoot handheld (heavy enough, yet still portable)<br />- Easy to rig/derig, but built cleverly enough to ensure you do nothing wrong while putting it together; also, it's nigh on impossible to detach one of the "elements" (prism/mag/lens) accidentally.<br />- Very convenient focus ring, with a good, solid feel<br />- All controls are conveniently laid out where they should be - I could easily jump between the Mamiya and my D90 without even having to think about what I was doing with various settings<br />- Lenses are easy to find and cheap on e-bay; if you want, you can even use non-Mamiya lenses with an adapter<br>

Cons<br>

- I didn't like the motor winder. I felt it was on the heavy side, making it difficult to ensure the camera is 100% horisontal when shooting hand-held<br />- Both the mirror and the winder are way too loud. Take a shot - and, in today's terrorism-aware society, you'll have police running towards you in no time at all. And I'm only half-joking.<br />- The prism is slightly on the dark side, but it's possible to get used to this<br />- The AE setting are not terribly easy to read - again, nothing one can't get used to.<br>

Pentax 645N, 80-160/4.5<br>

<strong></strong><strong></strong><br>

Pros<br>

- Quick, convenient and easy-to-use autofocus and metering<br />- Laid out very much like a 35 mil SLR - again, minimal fiddling involved.<br />- The zoom lens is long enough to make it easy to hold the camera with both hands, supporting the lens around the focus ring.<br>

Cons<br>

- Bulky and heavy. Will only fit into a videocamera bag<br />- Lenses are way too expensive, even on e-bay<br />- Impossible to swap between films mid-roll: there are no interchangeable backs<br>

<strong>Bronica ETRS, AEII, 75/2.8, 40/4</strong><br>

Pros<strong><br /></strong><br>

- Comparatively light and very convenient to hand-held<br />- Loved the wide-angle lens!<br>

Cons<br>

- The metering prism eats batteries like those toy cars I used to play with in the 1980s. I went through two batteries in the space of three days! And they are not exactly cheap. One way around it is to switch the metering off when you're not shooting. But then, of course, you forget to switch it back on again, which means the shutter speed you get is completely random. I've lost quite a few frames to this.<br />- Why is the shutter speed setting ring on the side of the camera? Who decided it was convenient and ergonomic?<br />- The focusing screen was not very nice at all. I had to guestimate where my focus was. Yes, I know you can change these screens.<br />- Settings are not shown through the prism. Which makes it very easy to forget you had exposure compensation dialled in. Or your aperture was set to something ridiculous. Yes, I know you'll probably get used to this. But it makes the workflow unnecessarily complex.<br />- Nowhere to put the darkslide when you are shooting. Which means you have to put it in your pocket. Which means it will go missing one day.<br />- The back is easy to open accidentally. I did just that.<br />- I couldn't figure out what exactly the metering prism was metering. Sometimes it seemed it was more "average", sometimes it appeared to be operating in spot mode. But maybe it's just me.<br>

So, what is the conclusion? Of these three, I would get a Mamiya any day of the week. Which I now have done, and at a very good price, too.<br />Having said that, I will probably keep on using my good old Yashica Mat. It might not have interchangeable lenses; it might be soft and, sometimes, have moodswings resulting in weird exposure settings etc. - but it's easy to use and foolproof. And 6X6 is very nice, too....</p>

[jean_yves_mead]

Having the zoom on the Pentax 645N is a little unfair, given that the others wore primes. With the 75mm f/2.8 or

45mm f/2.8 - indeed any prime up to the 150mm f/3.5 - it's light and handy enough to carry around all day.

It also hangs vertically on the shoulder strap which helps to keep it out of the way when slung over one's

shoulder.

 

What I have found with the Pentax 645N is that it has one of the best control layouts of any autofocus camera I've handled. And mirror slap is just not an issue (although the camera is far from quiet).

[yuri_huta]

<p>This is a nice comparison - thanks for posting it. Not everyday you get to try three comparable systems. Enjoy your Mamiya!<br>

a few comments on the Pentax 645N<br>

- focus confirmation with manual focus lenses is another big plus.<br>

- the viewfinder is very bright.<br>

- the lens you used is very big relative to the A or FA 75mm f/2.8, so I suspect your experience would be a little different if you had a standard lens to try.<br>

- you mentioned that the lenses are expensive, are you referring to the newer FA (autofocus lenses)? There are many A (manual focus) lenses that are in line with the prices for the Bronica and Mamiya manual focus 645 lens equivalents. You do pay quite a premium for the FA. Also, the recent news of the Pentax 645D (40 megapixel) has resulted in price spikes for the FA lenses and overall lens scarcity as people have been buying up lenses in anticipation of the 645D release.</p>

[lwg]

<p>There are two motor winders for the Mamiya. One is very small and light weight, using a 2CR5 lithium battery, and the other heavier one takes 6 AA. The small one is however missing the ability to cock the shutter on the leaf shutter lenses and doesn't have a cable release socket.</p>

[stp]

<p>I think your description of the Pentax 645 as 'bulky and heavy" (especially compared to the other two) is due <strong>only</strong> to the fact that you used on of the camera's heaviest lenses; yours was a misleading comparison because you didn't use the 75mm which is comparable to the lenses on the other cameras (and a small featherweight compared to the 80-160mm). Also, I have a relatively limited number of films that I prefer, and they are selected on what subject I'm shooting and the current weather conditions; I'm not constantly changing films throughout the day. Therefore, the lack of interchangeable backs on the pentax has never been an issue in the many years that I've owned a pentax. Finally, I've always considered the pentax 645 (and even the pentax 67) to be one of the best values in medium format photography in terms of quality of the lens (and the final image) relative to the price of the equipment. It's true that Pentax 645 lenses are not as easy to find these days, which I think is probably attributed to anticipation of the digital version of the 645. In fact, I'm one of those who is wanting to increase my pentax lens collection in anticipation of the 645D by repurchasing some lenses that I sold a few years ago when, after 5 years, I had given up on a digital pentax 645. Having a digital 645 (with its announced specs and price tag) should be a terrific combination with the film version, allowing one to use film as well as digital formats with outstanding quality in both if that's what one chooses to do.</p>

[prasanta_chakraborty]

<p>I have just bought a used (BGN) Bronica ETRSi from KEH and passed 2 rolls through it. While, I am still exploring the system, My experience is slightly different than yours. Could it be the differences between ETRS and ETRSi?<br>

- I am still using my first battery and I have played a lot with teh metering. Still no sign of drained battery. I religiously shut it off when not in use. BTW, my 35mm film and DLSR will eat up the battery same way had I not shitched them off. The batteries cost around $2-3 for a pair in Walmart. <br>

- The shutter speed dial helps me as I can handhold it with my right hand and change the shutter spped with my left. Quite convenient IMO.<br>

- With a metered prism II, you can see the shutter speed and if you haven't put the metering on, you don't see the lighted shutter speed! May be I am over simplifying things! I will also check if there is any indication of exp comp on screen. I know there is one for multi exposure.<br>

- Can you open the back without putting the dark slide in? Never tried it but I believe you shoudl not be able to do it. Will try it tonight when I reach home.</p>

[joseph_c._ohlsen]

<p>I feel qualified to respond here having owned all three systems at one time or another. I started with the Mamiya 1000S which was a nice camera. Sold it when I got the 645N. Very automated. Then got into the Bronica system. No comment on lens quality. </p>

<p>The pros/cons of the Mamiyas are they were produced in one model or another for over 30 years so should be plentiful/easy to find used and cheap to buy (haven't looked at the prices lately). One "pro" is any lens can be adapted to a Mamiya by tinkering it onto a modified body cap or some such. The "con" is they have a slow flash sync. speed. Another "con" is no interchangeable film backs on many models. </p>

<p>The pros/cons of the Pentax are they were produced in one model or another for over 20 years so should be plentiful/easy to find used but rumor is the digital version is causing the available used lenses, etc., to be scarcer (haven't looked at the prices lately). The "con" besides having a slow flash sync. speed is the built in motor drive. If it quits, you have no camera. Detachable motor drives are best. Another "con" is no interchangeable film backs. And the original 645 had a difficult (for me) viewfinder to peep through. </p>

<p>Ok, the Bronica ETRS were produced in one model or another for over 30 years and are plentiful/easy to find used and cheap to buy. It is the system I am into now. The "pro" is it can flash sync. at any speed. The next "pro" is it is totally modular. Everything pops on or off. Nice "pro" are the interchangeable backs for changing from one film to another at any time. The exclusive Speed Grip is lighter and better than any motor drive. You could say the Bronica is good imitation of a Hasselblad in all its features. </p>

<p>I do have to say one thing: the Bronicas are being given away at the prices they are selling for these days. You can get a basic Bronica ETR or ETRS outfit for $150. and the spare lenses are $100. You can't even get a good 35mm SLR lens for $100. I watch in amazement at bidders on eBay buying Yashica Mat 124G and Rolleiflex, etc., at outrageous prices when they could have a real medium format SLR system for about the same price. </p>

[ondebanks]

<p>Nice comparison. We all have our own needs and preferences, so how we weight things when we make our own comparisons can be a little different, but I also like to see how other people think. In my book the Mamiya wins mainly because of its lenses: it has the widest range of lenses and the fastest lenses.</p>

<p>For a more apples-with-apples comparison against the groundbreaking autofocus Pentax 645N (1997), the Mamiya 645AF (1999) would have been a more contemporaneous peer than the ProTL (also 1997, but scarcely changed from the Pro of 1992).</p>

<p>Re. the Bronica:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>- Why is the shutter speed setting ring on the side of the camera? Who decided it was convenient and ergonomic?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You'd have to ask Hasselblad, who put it on the side of their first, focal-plane shuttered SLRs in 1948. It became the most common place to put it, for box-shaped MF cameras - at least the focal-plane shuttered ones and electronically-controlled leaf-shuttered ones. Basically, because on box-shaped cameras, there's little room for a large dial on the top plate, which is mostly taken up with the viewfinder. When powerdrive grips (built-in or semi-optional) became de riguer, it migrated to the top plate, which was now extending further to the right.</p>

<p> </p>

[thomas_sullivan]

<p>"...Mamiya wins mainly because of its lenses: it has the widest range of lenses and the fastest lenses..."....my reasons for choosing the Mamiya also. That 80mm f/1.9 makes (this) medium format camera enjobable in low light. No tripod whenever it is on the cam.</p>

[jim_peterson2]

<p>With very little expenditure I have become the owner of all 3 of these cameras. Actually the Pentax is the original version. The Bronica was given to me a few months ago, brand new in the box along with 4 NIB lenses (40, 75, 105, 150) but no AE VF. I got one of those and after a bit of trouble with the VF everything is working fine now and I really like the feel and look of this camera, although I agree that it is relatively hard to focus with the screen that it came with. You mentioned the VF eating batteries. Of course it must be turned off whenever no being used, but I also suspect you may have been using the AE-II finder. If you can get the AE-III it uses far less battery power as it is LCD.<br>

I came across a Pentax 645 in the junk bin at a local store for $60. It was dirty on the inside but everything worked fine so I bought it and spend $100 on a decent standard lens and then a few weeks later about $75 on the 150mm lens. I would really like one of the wide angles as well but they are expensive. I also went directly to Pentax and got all the little caps, nubs and other doo-hickies that were missing for about $40. <br /> There is no doubt that this camera, even with it's quirky buttons, is more user friendly than the Bronica. The fact that it isn't modular means minus points on the "cool" scale but hey, it works! I've been eying an adapter for my 6x7 lenses but haven't pulled the trigger yet as it is priced at something like $75.<br>

Today, completely on a whim I bought a Mamiya 645 Pro tl (or at least part of one). I first saw the mirror box in a crate of junk cameras at the store. It looked pretty good and was priced at $10! Then I hunted through another crate and found the winder/grip for $20 (rubberized grip is breaking down a bit). Then I kept looking and found a couple view finders. One was metered and the other not so I took the metered one for $30. It was filthy but cleaned up pretty well. But the rubber eyepiece is missing. What I didn't find was a film back (I got a spare cartridge for $3) and the only lenses they had were expensive so I'm still hunting a bit before I can actually claim to own the whole Pro TL. But I put the box, VF and grip together and put batteries in it and it seems to work fine so I'm pretty excited! The look of the Mamiya is a bit more high tech than the others. I'm eager to see how it handles in real life!</p>