Can`t make up my mind on what camera to buy!

[joonas_hyt_nen]

I`ve come to a decision, that I need to move on and up from my 35mm

Nikon gear. I`ve checking out Medium format cameras on the net, and

there`s so many alternatives, that I really can`t make up my mind, so

I wish you guys could help me out here!

First of all, I`m a student, so paying 2000-3000$ is not a little

thing to me, but for a good and long lasting camera I`m willing to

make the sacrifice.

The reason I wanna move to Medium format is my never ending

perfectionism. I shoot B&W, and I process and print my pictures

myself. ANd no matter how I use a good and heavy tripod, Ilford Pan-

F, mirror lock-up etc., I still am not satisfied with the results. I

mostly photograph landscapes, but I also like to have my camera with

me at all times in case I see something interesting where ever I

might go. And I should also like to add that I do want to buy a NEW

camera, because I have had some bad experiences with second-hand gear.

So here are the nominees; Pentax 67II, Mamiya 6, Mamiya 7, Bronica

SQ-B, Hasselblad 501, and lately I`ve been thinking about the Xpan

too; are the lenses good on it? I could also consider a Leica M6, but

the Xpan with it`s pano option seems more tempting.

I should also add that as I hardly use anything else but the 50mm

on my 35, so a massive lense availability isn`t such a big issue for

me ( I wouldn`t have the money for them anyways :) )

[mark_crame1]

11x14 Techpan. Or an EOS 1DS.

[daniel flather]

<I>ANd no matter how I use a good and heavy tripod, Ilford Pan- F, mirror lock-up etc., I still am not satisfied with the results</i><p>

4x5<P>

<i>but I also like to have my camera with me at all times in case I see something interesting where ever I might go.</i><p>

Maybe not. MF of some kind.

[mark_crame1]

Nah, gotta be digital Dan. Perhgaps a digital Ixus? Whadd'ya say?

[jay_.]

Several things: 1)The Mamiya 6 was discontinued several years ago and is only available used. 2)The X-Pan neg is only larger than 35mm in one direction, and is not going to give you better detail. 3)The Mamiya 7 is a rangefinder camera and while it can be used for landscape photography I wouldn't choose it if that were my primary use--precise framing and use of ND grads is a challenge. 3)The Hasselblad and Mamiya 7 have the sharpest lenses and the prices to go with them. 4)The Bronica is a fine camera but in terms of absolute imaging quality for landscape photography it would not be on top of my list. 5)That leaves the Pentax 67 and ones which you did not mention, the Mamiya RB and RZ67. If you are interested in doing a lot of macro shots, the Mamiyas would be #1. Otherwise, the Pentax 67 combines a huge negative (much larger than 6x4.5)with exceptional lenses, good film-flatness, and very reasonable price. It would be my #1 choice with the following caveat: get the waistlevel finder and forget the prism, metered or non. The P67 prism cuts off about 10-15% of the full image, making composition a guessing game.

[matt_m__toronto_]

Rollei SL66...better than Hassie in my opinion.

 

Reasons: Rise and fall of lens. Reverse mounting (great macro capabilities) Basicaly the same Zeiss lens', bellows focusing (for quick street work or candids, I do not like it) Not too heavy. Far better priced than Hassy.

 

Problems: 1/30th sec flash sync. Not quiet, rarer than Hassy.

 

I love my setup. I've got a 50mm, 150mm, a polaroid back and lots of film.

 

Have fun.

[matt_m__toronto_]

Oops...didn't see the "new" comment you made.

 

Please disregard the above comment :-)

 

$2-3K can buy you a lot of great used gear. Buy from a reputable source and you will have no problems.

[steve_hovland]

If you don't need interchangeable lenses consider the Fuji rangefinders and the Cambo Wide.

[marbing]

I hear a couple of things going on here. One one hand you have a limited budget because you are a student and you want value for your money...that is understandable. In that regard it makes sense to buy quality gear which will last. For me, the one thing that kept me away from the modern Medium Format systems was not the price of the bodies but the price of the lenses...that was the real killer.

 

I like Zeiss lenses but the amount of money I would have to put out for Zeiss glass for either a Hasselblad or a Contax 645 was enough to give me pause. If it is similar for you, perhaps one of the other MF brands you are considering would enable you more room in the budget.

 

Personally, I have had good luck with used cameras and decided to get into Medium format with older Zeiss Ikon TLR and 6x6 folder. They give me a great Zeiss lens at a price I can afford and, since they don't take any other lenses...eliminates any temptation to buy a ton of lenses!! ;-)

[rich815]

<i>"ANd no matter how I use a good and heavy tripod, Ilford Pan- F, mirror lock-up etc., I still am not satisfied with the results."</i><p>What will you do if you spend all that money and you are still not satisfied? You need to ask yourself how is it that so many others through the years have been able to get excellent results using 35mm cameras, grainy Tri-X, hand-holding their cameras, etc? <p>I think since this will be such a big purchase that you slow down a bit and really figure out WHY you are so dissatisfied with your results. It just may not be your camera system and moving up to MF is no panacea. Often what you end up with is similar results but bigger negatives and a smaller bank balance. The list of MF systems you mention (and the Xpan) are all so different. It'll be up to you to decide, based on your style, what is it you want to accomplish, and what you like in "the feel" of a system that will most impact your results. <p>I've gotten great results from my 35mm Contax G2 with a $1000 21mm Biogon lens and great results from my $89 Olympus Epic Stylus. Same with my Fuji GW690III medium format rangefinder that I paid $900 for and my old 1953 Rolleicord which I got for $55. At the same token all have given me bad results too. I do not mean to sound flippant but you should be sure as to what you need in order to get the results you want before plunking down thousands of dollars on an expensive MF system in the blind hope that somehow this will improve your results and make you happy. <p>If you insist on buying new (which IMO is nuts as I've saved thousands on used gear with few problems) find a source to rent and try out some of these different systems to see what you like first. It will be money and time very well spent.

[louis_webb]

If you are considering the x-pan,the Mamiya 7,with it's pan. feature or maybe a Bronica plus 35mm/pan.'back may be more versatile,plus give you mf quality also.For a go anywhere mf camera,however,I don't think you could beat something like a Pentax 645nII or Mamiya 645af.Would this format satisfy that perfectionist streak in you,or will a 5x4(or bigger!)camera beckon in a few years time?Given the quality obtainable with 645,I suspect not.

[dick roadnight cotswolds]

If you are into landscape and you want value for money, something like a 69 view camera would be ideal, or you might graduate to a 6x17cm roll film back on an LF monorail! (Try mine when I get it.)

 

I know you want new, but "as new" LF gear is about a quater of new price.

[fotografz]

Wanting a rock stable, increadibly detailed image AND wanting to have

your camera at the ready at all times may be mutually exclusive. That's

why there are lots of different solutions available. In every case you will

be straped with a compromise on one end or the other. You seem

obsessed with image quality for work that you are sure of (landscapes).

A concept I fully understand. Yet you want to be prepared for the

spontaneous opportunity that you don't know about until it happens.

Keep the Nikon and a key lens for spontaneous work, and get the best

performer for the landscapes...like a 4X5 field camera. If large format

work doesn't interest you then go for a Mamiya RZ Pro II on the

Mamiya student plan. It uses bellows focusing so the lens elements don't

move, making it easier for lens designers to produce some of the sharpest

glass in the world. Do not get a 645, it will not satisfy your craving for

detail and tonal gradations. The only single camera candidate IMO would

be the Mamiya 7 II which is easy to use more spontaneously as well as

easy to carry into the field. The slower lenses are not a problem in the

field but may not be fast enough for available light work. Nothing does it

all.

[graphicjoe]

I would second Richard�s sensible comments. My 6X7 photos are a little better than those taken with a Leica, but it�s hardly and night and day difference. As Richard suggests, most photos are not good or bad because of fine differences in image quality. There are a host of more important factors that go into making a photo remarkable.

 

If you still want a larger camera consider a Mamiya 7II. I got one in as-new condition with a 65 mm lens on Ebay for $1750. It�s a great camera. I take it out almost every day when I go hiking and it has produced some excellent negs for me. It�s heavier than my Leica gear, but not too heavy even for a gimpy old guy with a wrecked back. You can take the money you have left to buy a new enlarger lens and any other tackle the new camera will require.

 

I don�t understand the comments about range finder cameras being unsuitable for landscape work. I�ve taken many excellent landscape photos with range finder cameras and always consider a range finder camera my first choice for almost all work except macro. The framing is plenty good for me; your needs may be different.

Joe Stephenson

[greg_smith4]

I'm basically in the same position as you are. I bought a Bronica SQ-A used for $800, then had $200 worth of fixing. This upset me, but what can I expect from a camera at that price. So I now have a $1000 bronica. I really liek the feel of the camera. Lenses are well builts and sharp. It has mirror lock up. I did more than enough research for the camera. I would have gone for a Hassleblad 500cm if the price was right, it was just whatever I found first. I also looked at the Mamiya 6, but I didn't care for the hole rangefinder thing on a MF camera (I'd kill for a leica). Hope this helps, Grady.

[ken_heflinger]

Rent anything you can! For one thing you will quickly determine if the MF size image will provide that quantum leap you are hoping for. Most pro shops have a rental department. Yes .. it will cost you about $50 to rent one for a day or a weekend. But I am sure you will learn a lot about what you really want after one rental .. even if it is not one of the cameras on your list.

 

Ken

[matt_m__toronto_]

Not to pick on Grady ("I would have gone for a Hassleblad 500cm if the price was right, it was just whatever I found first"), but being in a rush does not mix with buying camera gear with a budget. If you have money in the bank, the right deal will come along and you will be able to make a spontanious purchase. I've come across great Hassy deals every now and then. Take your time and buy used from a trustworthy source. You can save a wackload.

[rick_falck]

I have a Nikon system and a Pentax 645 system. I only use the Pentax when I want to print at 11X14 or larger. You did not state what you don't like about the 35mm prints you are making. If you are printing 11X14 or larger than I can understand. If not, then going to MF would not make a difference, unless you are currently using low end lenses on the Nikon.

 

What lenses are you using and what print sizes are you after?

[jonathan brewer]

Deciding on a car, a house, a woman, a career, a life change, anything significant works better if you wait, and wait some more, I took two years to basically decide on my LF gear, and though it was frustrating at times, I'm now happy things turned out the way they did.

 

Wait until the excitement dies down, don't scratch that itch anytime soon, and I am speaking from experience, impulse buying is not the way to purchase cameras, especially if you're on a budget.

 

Rent, borrow, test, handle, do anything but dive it for a while, check out all the reviews, pretty soon something will emerge and tell you 'I'm the right gear for you, come get me'.

[greg_smith4]

In return to Matt. I had found the camera and there were other buyers interested. It was either pass it up and hope for another good deal, or try and find another. I actually leaned toward the Bronica because lenses were cheaper, but I now relize I'm not going to be buying another lens any time soon.

[joonas_hyt_nen]

Thanks a lot for all the info. I just don`t know if it helped or just made me more confused! I think I`ll look in to it for a couple of months, maybe something will come up.

Rick: I usually print in 18X24 cm, it`s not very big size, but I do begin to lose detail at that size. I use Nikon primes, mostly the 50mm 1.8, and 85mm 2.0. They are great lenses, and I can`t think of using zooms anymore.

[harry_pluta3]

Joonas,

 

I'll toss a few comments in as well. I recently went thru the process of choosing a MF system in order to have better resolution then my 35mm rig yet a more portable rig then my LF system. I went to a few of the local "camera shows" where I was able to hold a few different cameras and get an idea of the used market. I then spent a bit of money and rented the three top contenders. That was the best thing I did. It turned out, for me, that the Mamiya RZ which seemed heavy at the store, ended up working well for the type of work I like to do, landscapes, portraits, and macro, all work done off a tripod. I've only had a chance to run about a dozen rolls of film thru the camera but the results have been stunning compared to my 35mm work and, once scanned, compare very well with the LF work I had been doing.

 

A couple of points I considered in my decision. I wanted an SLR so I could set neutral grads and polarizers, interchangeble backs so I could switch between B/W and chromes on a moments notice, both a waistlevel and metered prism, and finally a good selection of lenses. So far I have the 110mm which came with the camera and have rented the 50mm ULD which is so sharp it hurts.

 

Finally I ended up buying new from Robert White in the UK, great people to deal with and prices that can't be beat.

 

Good luck,

[jim moorehead]

Joonas,

 

>>"Ilford Pan- F, mirror lock-up etc., I still am not satisfied with the results"

 

I assume, from your comment, you are looking for intense clarity in

your photographs. There are many reasons why your 35mm work may not be up to your expectations: problem with film laying flat (old camera?), bad lens (have it checked), bad enlarger lens or mounting, incorrect film development (have a 2-3 pro labs do a roll and you do the other of the same subjects). Try other emulsions. Maybe you need higher contrast, not smoother grain. If this is still not what you want, rent or borrow MF if at all possible. 645 format will satisfy you for an 18x24 cm, but beyond that, you will probably want a 6x7 or above.

 

>>"I mostly photograph landscapes but I also like to have my camera with me at all times in case I see something interesting where ever I

might go."

 

Are you inferring wide angle? Not all landscapes need to be 'wide'. Few 'landscape-wide-angle' equipment can server as you wish. That said, I have found the Mamiya 7II and 65mm lens to be a wonderful compromise. It's a rangefinder, which means light weight/quiet operation for certain street/candid/group shooting and quite capable of delivering stunning wide scenery shots. Of course, neutral grads are out, but polarizers and yellow/orange/red filters are great because you do not have to look through them. On the other end, have you looked at LF non-focusing (infinity focus) equipment? Couldn't be simpler but not for street shooting. I've also used the Mamiya RZ67 in the field with super results as long as I use mirror lock up for those high f-stop low shutter speed situations (this is really a

portrait machine). But using this camera is heavier than 4x5 LF!

 

>>"I do want to buy a NEW camera, because I have had some bad experiences with second-hand gear"

 

I buy used on ebay from individuals/companies that have a lot of positive feedback - never had a problem. B&H/USA and Robert White/UK also sell used equipment and they stand by their sales. Check out local stores, but ask to have it inspected by 3rd party, if possible.

 

As others have stated, do not be in a hurry. Think about how you use your equipment now and what will change by using a different format. Try to get your hands on the equipment you want use. Just like a car, try before buy.

[carl smith]

If you can handle the lesser modularity of the Pentax system, the viewfinder without full coverage and some other things, Pentax is the best for your money. Their optics are not only stunningly good, but affordable. Their cameras are solid, but as mentioned you have fewer parts you can swap in and out like the other MF SLRs.

 

Given that you only need one lens, if you can afford a body which supports some of the better lenses, I'd do that and just get that one, really good 80mm normal lens.

 

On student pricing you technically could get a Hassy with an 80 2.8, a film back (or 2 maybe) and that's about it. You won't get as many toys as with the Pentax for example... but the optics are great. However, I don't know where you are and you may not have the availability of student pricing, fortunately our campus store sells hassies for the people in your situation.

[douglas_green1]

I would repeat that you can save a fortune buying Used, from reputable suppliers. More than any other area, Medium format value is found in the USED market. I'm most familiar with Pentax 67, which you could get a superb camera, with a great lens, in Ex+ to MINT condition, for under $1000 buying used, which is half of what a new 67II would cost. And nice used lenses would run $250-500, also half of what new ones run. Similarly, with the Mamiya 7, a used camera and lens in near mint condition will run you $1500, which is $1000 less than a new setup.

 

On the othe hand, if you really know you can get by with just a normal lens, you could get a very nice 6x6 TLR in perfect shape like a YashicaMat 124G for under $300, or a Plaubel Makina or Fuji 670 or 690 rangefinders for under $1000. The Makina, in particular is exceptionally portable and has a legendarily sharp Nikkor lens.