Getting Hired

[john_sebesta]

<p>I am graduating soon with my degree in photography. Since I will only be in this area for a few more years, I am not looking to establish myself as a private wedding/portrait photographer.</p>

<p>My question is, how likely would an already established wedding photographer be to hire on a second photographer/image editor? There obviously aren't many listings for positions so I would basically be doing some cold calling. I planned to send out postcards with some sample images but I'm not sure what to say on them. Should I just ask if they need help?</p>

<p>Would a commercial photography or advertising business be more likely to need extra help?<br>

I do hope this is in the most appropriate forum.</p>

<p>Thanks in advance for your advice,<br>

John</p>

[william-porter]

<p><strong><em>My question is, how likely would an already established wedding photographer be to hire on a second photographer/image editor? There obviously aren't many listings for positions so I would basically be doing some cold calling.</em></strong></p>

<p>I really do not know, because I have not done this. But I suspect you should prepare yourself for some serious frustration. </p>

<p>There are by my estimate about 4 photographers available now for every bride. In other words, it's awfully competitive. If I needed help with a gig next weekend, I think I could find that help in about 5 minutes. I wouldn't need to wait for somebody to send me a post card offering to help.</p>

<p>*</p>

<p><strong><em>Would a commercial photography or advertising business be more likely to need extra help?</em></strong></p>

<p>To me, this sounds like a better place to start. If you are contacting a business for a salaried position, your academic credentials (i.e. your degree) may actually mean something.</p>

<p>I hope you get some good replies with people who know the market better than I do. Good luck,</p>

<p>Will</p>

[john_sebesta]

<p>Thank you Mr. Porter for your response.</p>

<p>Something I am struggling with is how to phrase my postcards to any potential business? Is asking for a job outright a little too bold? Perhaps just an introduction?</p>

[picturesque]

<p>John--try searching the archives, particularly in the Wedding Photo Assistants category. Here is one from the Beginners Forum.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.photo.net/beginner-photography-questions-forum/00WLK7">http://www.photo.net/beginner-photography-questions-forum/00WLK7</a></p>

<p>I would say that commercial and advertising is probably about the same as wedding photography, if not worse. The economy is just not that great and there are many, many people looking for assistant work and for mentors, let alone a job.</p>

<p>But you never know. I would forget postcards though, unless you had some really creative campaign built around them. You will have to be much more targeted, first identifying and studying the photographers in your area that might use you. Then you need to reach them personally, not through something like a postcard.</p>

[juanita_ramirez]

<p>I wouldn't hire you. You'll come on for a while, generally do a mediocre job, learn the trade, and then go compete with me in the same market. </p>

<p>If you can get a job doing post-production at some sweatshop that will help you to hone you Photoshop skills and make a small amount of money to survive on. With the rest of your time, see if you can assist for free (I don't even take on free interns for the reasons above) and get someone to show you the ropes. Having a formal photographic education will seem a little bit worthless at first, but when you're a year out, it will put you miles ahead of compatriots who didn't get a photo degree.</p>

<p>Few studios will hire you, and if they do they won't pay well. Going out on your own earlier than you'd like may be your best option. Necessity is the mother of invention or something like that. It sucks, and you'll screw a few things up along the way, but hopefully that photo education will pay off and you'll get enough quality images to make your clients happy. Just remember when you're shooting a wedding, you don't just "turn in" one photo, you're expected to turn in a bunch.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Juanita, I hope you mean "you" as in "aspiring wedding photographers in general", based on your past experience, since you can't know that John will do a mediocre job. I know you are giving very good, realistic advice, but it sounds a bit off putting. Dose of reality, yes, dashing of intentions right from the get go--not necessary, IMHO.</p>

[neilambrose]

<p>John - take a look in the 'wedding assistants' category of this forum. There are 660 posts from people looking for work as assistants, paid or unpaid. That gives you a measure of how much competition there is for the very few opportunities that arise. Many of them will have contacted photographers directly -- undoubtedly some in your area. (I get half a dozen enquiries a month).</p>

<p>Bluntly, unless your image editing skills are something very special, there's a possibility (even probability) that you'll be less skilled than the photographer/studio who already does their own. That makes getting hired as an image editor something of a long shot.</p>

<p>I second the advice about going out on your own. There are hundreds of people each year who decide to start a photography business with no skills, experience or idea about necessary equipment. As you would expect, most of them fail. But with a photography education you may stand a better chance.</p>

<p>If you're interested in weddings, the start-up route is to find someone who's getting married without budget for a photographer. Build your portfolio by doing good work for people who might not have other options. Use it to win more business, and better paid business.</p>

<p>Likewise, if you're interested in commercial photography, you need to shoot some very good, innovative personal work. Everyone who's graduated from a photography course in the last five years is your competitor. Most of them will have more experience and better contacts, but you'll all be looking for the same opportunities. The only way to stand out is to compete on your vision, which means creating interesting personal work and entering competitions where it will be seen by the right people.</p>

[dmcgphoto]

<p>Okay, little different perspective, find some wedding photographers in your area. Start with 3. strike up a conversation. What is old is new, don't just email, phone use your words.</p>

<p>As for competition, pfffahh, my best and most reliable friends are people I've worked under/with/trained. I know that if I'm in trouble they will help and the reverse is true. No other photographer is your competition as no other photographer is you. That being said, what Nadine and William say is true, for weddings in particular you know less, even with your degree because you have very little experience. F/stops and bokeh and apertures are all very important, but so to is knowing what the market wants and where you fit in. Don't think your voice can't be heard, but don't think what you have to say hasn't been said before. <br>

So...3 wedding photographers who don't think you will be competition, get to know them and their work through their blogs and websites, then make a connection. If all 3 turn you down, pick 3 more, and keep picking until someone responds.<br>

It will happen, it takes patience no matter how long you are where you are<br>

Good luck<br>

D</p>

[fuccisphotos]

<p>As for Daniel's comment on competition, I'd completely agree. From this forum he offered me a chance to second shoot for him, and even referred a couple to me for a date he was already booked for. I can tell you without a doubt that if I get a call from someone for a date I'm already booked for, the first name I will give them is Daniel's. Also you said you are only going to be in that area for a few more years. You can even use that to your advantage for people with concern's like Juanita's. You can assure them that you'll be out of their home market within a year or so, so they shouldn't worry about you becoming their competition after they take the time to train you. <br>

I'd suggest doing a combination of both suggestions given to you. Do start your own little business, but also look for 2nd shooter gigs as well. You'll learn valuable lessons both ways. If you can, get one 2nd shooter or assistant job first before you actually go out and do someone else's wedding, just out of respect for the potential bride that would be your guinea pig. <br>

In the mean time, spend less than $100 bucks for a year long subscription for your own website. That way when you are asked what your work looks like, you can easily show them in a professional manner. If you want a critique on your portfolio/website, just shoot me an email and I'll be happy to provide one.<br>

Good luck!</p>

[senor_crocodrillo]

<p>John, I was once, sort-of, in your place, several years ago. I had a 4 yr degree from a fancy university, but I hit the job market at just the right time- just when the dot.coms were taking off. Digital was just starting to make it to the mainstream and I knew enough to get people interested. I had a good referral network, as many of my friends either lived or were moving to NYC. That made it pretty easy to find work. My friends were my in and I was theirs. We still help each other out. In the event that there was a photographer that I wanted to work with, that no one knew, I would send a resume & cover letter enclosed in a leaflet that had a photo of mine on the front. It was nicely hand-crafted and in the cover letter I expressed why I wanted to work with them. It made a good impression, which is very important- you want to give them something they won't throw out (immediately, anyway). However, the most important part of the process was the phone call. I would always call after sending the letter. I felt then as I still do now, that taking control of your work opportunities is paramount. You have to follow up. If you just send out promotions and hope someone calls, you're going to be sitting around a long time. If you don't have the drive or personality to do this, you should go back to school and learn something else.<br>

Also, don't forget to do your research- Finding out what a photographer shoots will give you an insight into who they are as a person. Come up with some things to talk about. People love to talk about themselves, including photographers. If they have a personal project on their website, ask them about it. You could ask them how they get their start, etc. Be an interesting person- listen to new music, go to the movies, go see some art, travel if you can, etc. If a photographer has something in common with you, or wants to hear what you've been up to, he's more likely to call.<br>

<br>

Over the years, as an assistant and later as a digital-tech, I got to see places, meet people, and do things that most people, including most photographers, will never have the opportunity to. Sometimes I miss it. I've shot a few cool things on my own, but nothing in the volume that I had when I was working as an assistant. I learned more as an assistant, in one year, about lighting and business than I did as a student. I never got the I'll-teach-you, but-then-I'll-have-to-kill-you speech from anyone. But then again, I never worked for anyone who was so insecure about their talent (or lack of). Many of the photographers I worked with were generous with their time, knowledge and even their equipment. They still are. <br>

I never really assisted a wedding photographer. I had a couple of experiences, but I basically transitioned from assistant/tech to wedding and sometimes editorial photographer. I don't feel it's necessary to assist a wedding photographer to become one, but I bet it wouldn't hurt. I bet it would be easy and smart to work for all types of photographers, if you can. Just make sure that you admire their work, because it's a waste of your time to work for someone otherwise. <br>

Lastly, I worry about the market these days for assistants. There just isn't enough work out there to go around right now, even for photographers. Budgets for advertising and even weddings, aren't what they used to be. Of my friends that I started out with, a couple are shooting (one is doing very well), one is teaching, several have left the business for another field, a few are still assisting, and a couple are basically starving, counting the days until their girlfriend kicks them out. A few of the photographers I worked for are considering getting out of the business and most them say they aren't doing as well as they used too.</p>

[silverdae]

<blockquote>

<p>a few more years</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'm not sure why this would disqualify you from starting your own business and trying to establish yourself. Why could you not work to build business (assuming this is what you want in the long run anyway, regardless of the location) and a solid portfolio from real-world experience, then relocate? I've heard many people who did just that and it made them stronger in the market they moved to. Why give up a few years worth of business experience and portfolio building simply because you plan to move? You can start now, or you can start in a few years... if it were me I would want to relocate with that few years spent gaining experience and solidifying my business plan. </p>

<p>Just another side of the coin...</p>

[john_deerfield]

<p>Muddy waters indeed. There are two sides to the equation: finding a photographer who needs an assistant AND one you are willing to work for! It's been mentioned that several people hang out a shingle all the time yet know virtually nothing (hey, I have Rebel and can take a picture, I'm a photographer). You can't learn anything good from that! On the other hand, if you can find a Master Crafstman/Photographer, you can learn a lot from these folks. So finding the right placement can be critical. No matter what, join PPA. And, start entering prints into competition. You want to get better fast, let your peers start judging your work! Your local PPA chapter is a great resource. Tremendous. I just attended a PPA lighting seminar. And I thought I knew something about lighting going in! In the meantime, there are organizations such as Bella Photography where you could freelance, pick up skills, all at Bella's expense (so to speak).</p>

[john_sebesta]

<p>I cannot thank y'all enough for your words of wisdom. Your insight is invaluable in my pursuit of a career.</p>

<p>If you allow me, I do need to give some more information. I do wholeheartedly intend to follow every postcard sent out with a self promotional piece, resume, and phone call. The personal connection is monumental.</p>

<p>As to the question of my experience and work, (if it is appropriate) here is my website sebestaphotography.com</p>

[fuccisphotos]

<p>John,<br>

I'm checking out your website right now. For the time being, having the WIX.com parts all over I suppose are fine. But I'd definitely move away from that as soon as possible.<br>

On the whole you need to decide what the purpose of your website is. Is it meant to be like your own photo blog? Or is it supposed to be your store front, how you advertise yourself. Right now I'm getting more of a blog feel from the content. But the home page feels like it's for your business. You need to decide which one it is. The following comments I have provided are assuming you want this to be a site that helps to get you business. You can take or leave my comments, but thought they could be useful to you. Some of your stuff is fabulous and I love it, others...not so much. So I make suggestions as to what you should keep and what you should take out. Again, it's very much a take it or leave it type of deal.<br>

I love the you deserve sebesta line. Very witty.<br>

I am concerned about the use of another language, even if you have the translation below it. While it feels artsy, if I was a bride clicking on this, my eye first sees formator, opus operis, concero, I'm like WHA??? The Rust color is far more dominant than the gray, which is actually the important info. If you insist on keeping the Latin/Italian/whatever language it's in, I'd make that be the less dominant color. Second, the first thing you list is "the artist" When I come to a photographer's site the very first thing I want to see is their work, or portfolio. That should be VERY obvioius. Having the first thing someone reads is this piece that seems more of a musing that would be more appropriate on a blog site than on your main page, is probably not such a great idea. Also, your description is an image, not a text based piece, so search engines won't pick it up, and your resume on the page just looks like a tiny rectangle with some text, if you happen to click on it just out of curiosity, not because it's labeled resume, then you get a Flash image of it. I have a fairly decent sized monitor, and the font comes off as tiny. Because it's a flash piece, not a PDF I can't seem to zoom in on it. If I click on it, it just goes away again. Of what I can read, you might want to change up a great deal. Having it say conscientous worker, adaptable and open-minded, imaginative and artistic ideas, these aren't appropriate things to have on your resume. It just looks like filler, when it doesn't seem like you NEED filler. You have some great skill sets it seems. For involvement, I probably would take this out entirely, unless keeping the president of the photo society thing. Also under experience get rid of worked under pressure, and the Barista job. If I'm a bride looking to hire you, seeing that you worked at a coffee shop isn't going to help you get my business. You have many good things in there but they are just totally lost amongst all the stuff that really just has no place on your resume or on your website.</p>

<p>I get that you are calling your portfolio "the art" but frankly at this stage in your career, I'd just title it portfolio. It seems kinda arrogant to right off the bat have it labeled as Art, IMO. Sure we all think of our work as art, but generally, the public may not think so.</p>

<p>For your wedding shots, same advice I tell people time and time again, and I need to remember to heed it myself, less is often more. The photos you show on your site need to be PERFECT. Even if you have only shot a handful of weddings, or even just one, the photos you choose to put up all need to be ones that are perfect for viewing. So you have some great stuff in here, and some that isn't so great. First off, it's usually the bride or the mother of the bride doing the photographer research. Do yourself a favor, and start with a stunning photo, a show stopper. Preferably of the bride, flowers, rings, or bride and groom. Just the groom or a groomsman, probably not your best starter. Remember that there are way more photographers than there are brides getting married in a single day, so if your images don't grab them right off the bat, they are clicking onto the next link they find, and will have forgotten about you entirely.<br>

Only put up shots with sharp focus, unless the out of focus shots are intentionally meant to be out of focus. Also, it seems mean, but people use models for a reason in ads. Think of these as your ads. So if you are the photoshop expert you claim to be, remove blemishes, pockmarks, hairs out of place. The people viewing your site want to see beautiful images. Non-model people definitely can result in beautiful images too. Just think of it as you wanting to put your best face (image) forward. Anything you can do to help make that image look better, you should do it for your webpage.<br>

Also, I tend to make sure that I never put up any images that could be viewed as a snapshot that just anyone could take. I'd take out the 2nd curly hair guy shot, the first one is stronger to me. could just be my monitor, but I'd brighten up first shot of the couple saying their vows. This should be closer to the beginning too. Like the champagne flutes. For the couple being outlined by the sun directly behind them, maybe it's a matter of personal preference here but I don't like the banding you are getting in the sky, and the lack of contrast in the shadows and details, I'd get rid of it. The one after that is better. For the BW one of the couple by the sea, either crop in on their faces, or get rid of it. This is dangerously close to the snapshot problem. Also, the detail in her dress seems to be lost. Overall I'm just thinking this isn't strong enough. Love the one of the groom's knee up, shows you can do some fun poses. The one of the bride looking off at the sun just feels a bit sad to me, again, having a sky that is nearly white is not an ideal background. She's just kind of floating there, perhaps crop it down. The sunset photo is interesting. Might want in PS to fill light their faces more or silhouette them more, but could be fine as is. Like them looking up at the moon, but the sky seems noisy, might try to fix that in PS. Fix the happy bride with the yellow flower's camera left eyebrow. Shot of bride and groom in white, I'd just ditch. The highlights are totally blown and the composition isn't as strong as some of your others. Really like your detail shot with the M&Ms, I'd move that up in the deck. Bride getting kiss from groom, highlights are blown again and she loses her neck in this pose. I'd probably get rid of it. The bridal party shot I'd probably get rid of too. It shows that you didn't know how to properly shoot a groop in harsh sunlight. In the future look for some shade, or use fill flash (although the sun was so harsh in this photo, I don't think fill flash could have saved you). Definitiely keep the one of the groom looking at the bride with the tiara. Keep the cake shot. The car, you have to look SOOOOO close to see it says wedding. I personally don't think it fits well, but maybe in your region this will resonate with clients. ADORE the lillies shot. Might open with this!<br>

I like much of your portrait work. I'd probably get rid of the 2nd and 4th images. The 4th she looks like she's sucking on a lemon. The rest are fairly strong. I like your close up ones with instruments, but wonder if they should go under portraits. I'd think they'd go somewhere else. I would ditch umbrella guy and girl playing piano.</p>

<p>Fine art, this probably comes to a matter of opinion, but I'll put it out there for you, take what I say with a grain of salt. ditch chair by the river. Love paint coming off door. Ditch pier shot, just doesn't say anything to me. Like the gnarled tree close up. Not a fan of the desert tree shot. LOVE the artichoke, would lead with this. Neat junk metal shot. Rams horn shot looks too much like a depth of field study piece from a class to me. Would get rid of the sculpture on the side of the church, just isn't that interesting to me. I don't know why, but I like the door one with the piece of wood and the weird strainer thing on the side. LOVE the inside of the piano. I would definitely move this up in the deck. I think musical instruments do something to you, cause those are some of your strongest pieces. I don't get the distinction between your traditional and fine art shots. <br>

From your commercial shots, you can put some of these into wedding, if that's something you do want to move into more. Like the lit up row of glasses seems like a prep shot from a wedding and it's strong. Same with teh martini being poured. Same with the old shot of the woman on the lace in sepia tones. People don't have to know it wasn't actually from a wedding, but the lace and the photo makes it seem old. Hits on the something "old something new" poem. <br>

Travel shots are also probably best put on a blog, not your main site. Same with the panoramas. Same for most of your lifestyle shots. Move the pink roses with white flowers and candles to the wedding section. Documentary section is interesting, but again, I wouldn't have it on your main site for people to be looking at that are potential customers. It's more blog appropriate. From Nature, put in the first beautiful pink what I'm assuming is a magnolia, into the wedding section. the VW stuff should go under your commercial shots.</p>

<p>Hopefully that didn't bruise your ego too much. Hearing criticism is never easy, but you definitely have got some real skill. You just need to work on how you market yourself. =) If you have any questions on my comments, please feel free to ask.<br>

-Vail</p>

[john_sebesta]

<p>Vail, I do not think anyone has so extensively critiqued my website! At this point in my life, I am much better about taking critique. Now I enjoy learning how to make myself better as a photographer and artist.</p>

<p>You are absolutely right about the duality of the website. I intend to make an actual blog to house my images of travel and such. I signed up with a one year wix account to satisfy a class requirement. I intend to switch to something that will work better on the business end. I'm open to suggestions.</p>

<p>I will take your suggestions to heart and work on editing what images are in there. And to clarify, the traditional gallery section are images of my traditional darkroom work. Perhaps I could make that more clear.</p>

[fuccisphotos]

<p>People on this forum would know far better than I, but I'd think putting in the words film, or 35mm, or something like that. Traditional when everything else is describing a style just doesn't tell someone very much. Also since everything else is by style, not by technique I think I'd just put those shots in amongst the appropriate categories, rather than separating them out. Then in your about section, mention that you do traditional B&W film developing as well.</p>