Leica M8 - How *bad* is it? M7/MP instead?

[ryan_smith9]

<p>I have been considering getting back into rangefinders and am wondering whether I would be best suited with a Leica M8 or M7/MP. I would definitely get the M9 if money was no object <img src="http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" />.<br /><br />I like the idea of digital as, lets be honest, it is faster and easier. However, I have read many unpleasant things regarding the M8 such as banding and the need to have an IR-cut filter on each lens (less than 35mm or so). Those of you with experience, how *BAD* is it? Is it overblown? The 6-bit coding is irrelevant because film won't capture EXIF info either. I understand vignetting is there without it, but can't that be cleaned up in PP work? If this were an M8 vs M9 question that would be more of an issue. I want to get back into rangefinders for a strictly light-weight street/landscape system. Thus, high ISO quality is irrelevant to me<br /><br />M8 vs M8.2.....are the viewfinder lines that much brighter to warrant the increase in price? I don't care much about the other upgrades<br /><br />I currently shoot with a D700 but hate the weight...hence the consideration of a rangefinder. I have about $6,000 in my D700/landscape system that I would be using toward the Leica.....am I short on funds? To get an idea of what I like, I am currently using all Zeiss in 21mm, 35mm, 50mm and 100mm. If going film, I understand that I would need to purchase a scanner so there is $1,000 (roughly) of my budget right there</p>

[michael_a._shapiro]

<p>Get an M8.2 because the frame lines are more accurate than either the M8 or M9. You may also be able to get an upgraded M8. I consider the M9 closer to a medium format version of a film camera, because of its large file size.<br>

Most banding issues were fixed early on. Yes you need IR cut filters. No you don't need coded lenses, but you can also code them yourself with black and white nail polish.</p>

<p>Hope that helps.</p>

[john_shriver]

<p>There are plenty of DSLR's with just as serious IR sensitivity problems as the M8, and there isn't a great fury about them. In many applications, the IR sensitivity just isn't an issue. So it is somewhat overblown, but not to deny it's a real problem.<br>

Just buy only lenses that use E39 filters, and then you only need one filter for those times it's an issue.</p>

 

[vince_tan]

<p>I myself just bought an M8.2 after drooling over a digital M for a long time now. I even dive into a Lumix G1 just to use my Leica lenses but the EVF is really no match for the bright viewfinder of the Ms. I also wondered if M8/8.2 is a good idea since there are some bad press about the product but at the end, I read more good things about them than bad. So now, I am on the hunt for some IR cut filters for my lenses. Good Luck on your quest.</p>

[ray .]

Yes you do need lenses coded if you're using an IR filter to shoot color. There's a ton of stuff already written about this

camera on this forum alone. Do a search. Great choice if you want a digital RF. Just do the IR filter and coding if you want

color with no issues.

[steve_larese1]

<p>You mention a scanner. I'd allocate $2,500 or so and find a Nikon Coolscan 9000, 8000 or 5000 for your film. A low-quality scan of an excellent shot renders a low-quality image.<br>

I looked at the M8 and M9 and decided not to. I'm very happy with my M6s and RPDIII. M6ttl are less than $2,000. I also have a Voigtlander R2, which has done an excellent job for $500 or so.</p>

[john_r._fulton_jr.]

<p>The question isn't how "bad" it is. It's how good it is and it's darn good. I finally broke down and bought the M8.2 in November of 2008, new. I've used it everyday since then and have 21,000+ frames since then. I love the images. They're great. I also use it in conjunction with my Canon dslrs when on assignment and it fits right in. The files are good and the images are sharp. I've had all my lenses 6-bit coded and have the filters for all of them (I do have some old lenses they couldn't 6-bit coded but I don't use those anymore). All of that said, the D700 is a fine camera. You might consider hanging on to it for the 50 & 100, selling the 21 and 35 and get two wides for the M8. Probably overbudget there, but something to think about. Good luck with your decision and your photography.</p>

[paddler_b]

<p>Been a leica m and slr user most of the time. Using M8 strictly for digital , shooting raw, and processing in C1. I'm happy enough that will not invest in other digital for a long time unless there is an earth shattering development(so to speak) in digital world. I still shoot film out of habit and merit.<br>

Consider RF differences to slr, and M8 doesn't make things easier with its framing. The only time IR issue really has really bugged me been in fashion shows, any other genre I deal with it through costume profiles in C1. I don't use IR filter or coded lens, the widest I shoot is 25mm, on longer lenses coded is not that big of a deal one way or the other, imho.<br>

Draw your own conclusion...</p>

[elijah_free]

<p>If you are staying with film, a M6 will work just as well as an MP. Sherry of Golden Touch warned me away from the M7. I have a Nikon Scanner 5000 that gives me beautiful scans. This would save you a lot left over for lenses.</p>

[ray .]

I will disagree with Sherry re the M7. It's my all time favorite camera.

[Uhooru]

<p>Yeah, I have to agree with Ray on that one. I'd say my fave Leica because the auto exposure rocks for street work.</p>

[bruce_erickson1]

<p>I'm with Ray & Fisher. M7's are great. I take mine everywhere. Not a bit of trouble. Who is this Sherry of Golden Touch anyway? </p>

[neilambrose]

<p>Whether or not the M8 has problems that are 'overblown' will depend very much on your application.</p>

<p>If you're a hobbyist shooting personal work then it's quite easy to make allowances for the limitations and work in a way that gets the best from what the M8 offers. Not so easy if you're relying on it for professional assignments.</p>

<p>My M8 doesn't go with me on jobs any more. I found it unworkable and a huge compromise: IR pollution was a very real problem for me, and cut filters were a totally inadequate solution - in fact, not even a solution, as the filters actually introduced other problems. Battery life was abysmal - I'd get through 3, somtimes 4 batteries in a 12 hour day. Buffer fill rate is worst in class - in fact, considerably worse than most consumer cameras. I lost a few important shots because the camera wasn't ready to fire. ISO range is inadequate relative to the current professional benchmarks, and image quality degrades quickly as you move above floor speed. I believe the M8 is worst in class for low light work.</p>

<p>I should counter the above by saying I find the M8 very useful for my personal work, where my shoot rate is low and I generally work in b+w. I have the scope to choose my subject and my light, and can work at 160 ISO and get the benefit of lovely, detailed images. The small form factor and amazing glass is a huge bonus, and I much prefer it to any DSLR.</p>

<p>But I no longer consider the M8 viable for my commercial work - there are far better options for me.</p>

<p>I do however take an MP with me on assignment. It's bullet proof, has no compromises, needs no batteries and is always ready to fire. I'd give up the M8 easily, but I expect I'll always have the MP around.</p>

[carbon_dragon]

<p>I haven't had any problem banding. I'm not that sensitive to it probably, but I don't notice any odd colors in most of the (outdoor) shots I take due to IR contamination. I can't notice much difference with the UV/IR filter and without. But what I do notice is that I can put an IR filter on the lens and do great IR photography and I love that.</p>

<p>People who are more sensitive want to code their lenses, either by hand or by (in the case of Leica lenses) sending them to Leica. I can notice the difference occasionally but I don't think it is a big deal.</p>

[williamchuttonjr]

<p>The IR problem is bad. If IR contamination was trivial, most photographs taken with IR film would be blank. But it's simple to eliminate the problem for most Leica owners because most Leica owners can afford high-quality IR lens filters and encoded wide-angle lenses. So IR artifacts really are not an issue unless money is an issue. If money is an issue, why buy a Leica in the first place?</p>

<p>Of course IR artifacts, compared to other digital cameras, are a significant problem for M8 color photography because the M8 has no internal IR filter whatsoever. While all digital images are contaminated to some degree by IR light, almost always the contamination level is too low to be noticed. But a M8 without an IR lens filter records all the IR light that passes through the lens. Significant color casts are always present in M8 color images unless the subject happens to not emit or reflect IR light.</p>

<p>For me the problem isn't the contamination (at least with focal lengths of 35 mm and longer) because lens filters remedy the situation (if you can afford a Leica the cost of the filters is trivial). The problem is Leica released the M8 as if the problem did not exist. Many reviewers and Leica lovers were left twisting in the wind when they initially ignored or insisted the IR issue was not significant. Leica was incompetent at best or arrogant or even deceptive at worst.</p>

<p>The banding problem is also bad. Banding seems to be a function having a very bright point source in the frame when the rest of the frame has a much lower EV. No digital sensor handles this as well as film does, and the M8 apparently can't handle some scenes like this without generating very large artifacts. If one uses a M8, then one simply accepts this sort of scene may be impossible to record without significant flaws.</p>

<p>But the M8 has all the advantages any rangefinder has and thousands of photographers all over the world enjoy using their M8's. So many people believe the M8's disadvantages are much less important than the disadvantages of DSLR or M film camera.</p>

[carbon_dragon]

Don't think of the IR contamination as a PROBLEM. Think of it as just about the only camera that make great normal

pictures or great IR pictures with an R72 or 87C filter. Infinite IR film! And in false color too!

[ryan_smith9]

<p>Wow David! I just saw one of your other posts with IR pics taken.....they look great. You are right, seems like a benefit to me.</p>

<p>http://www.photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00VsFe</p>

[marek_fogiel]

<p>The basic point is: do you do B&W or colour? If you do B&W, you might as well sell your D700 and get an FM3A instead for the 50 and 100, plus an M7 for the wide to normal range. If you shoot only colour, then in my opinion a film 35mm camera is a waste of time. It would only excel if you were using a low ISO colour neg film, which would at best have a real EI of 80. This is not enough for street photography, and it would not give you sufficient resolution for bigger landscape prints. Scanner wise, I also agree a CS9000 would be better, as it has a diffuse light source and does not exaggerate the grain, so there would not be a lot of savings per se in this solution. If you want a comparison of the quality in B&W between the Zeiss ZF and ZM/Leica glass on film, look up my flickr pages here:<br>

<a href="

and here:<br>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/59177039@N00/">http://www.flickr.com/photos/59177039@N00/</a></p>

[ryan_smith9]

<p>Marek, how do you like the ZI vs the Leica?</p>

[g-man1]

The M8 when it's upgraded and working is a fantastic camera. Imagina an M9 with a 1.3 crop, better buffer, weaker anti-

alias filter and no IR problems (with the proper filter), shorter shutter lag and better battery life.

[stric]

<p>OK... to me the point of Leica gear was always the magnificent lenses that they make. Now with M8 and 1.3 crop factor you're losing some of the lens qualities. In other words, wide angles move more toward normal lenses and so on. Therefore, I never liked the M8. I continued using my MP with slide film and continued achieving excellent results. Now, the M9 is a different story, I like the fact that the user can fully utilize Leica lenses in the fashion they were intended for. what I don't like is its price.</p>

[mike_leviste]

<p>My recent experience which mimics yours OP...<br /> <br />M8 - Purchased approx 4 months ago. I purchased it used with the original firmware and early serial numbers. I upgraded the firmware to the latest and be on my way shooting with it. This is my first anything Leica RF and absolutely enjoy the rangefinder concept. Things that scared the bejesus out of me when I bought M8:<br /> <br />1. Serial number was one of the early batch that exhibited some problems. However, the one I sold did not have any of the reported problems eg. vertical lines in high ISO, shutter failure and etc In fact, I was very lucky? The M8.2 should have been the M8!<br /> <br />2. M8 are discontinued items and does not carry any warranty. Fronting out $2000 - $2500 for a used camera that maybe prone to problems and is out of warranty worries me. The unfortunate part is if it requires repair, be prepared to pay extra $$$$. I was in essense thinking long term but opted on selling it. Don't get me wrong, there are ALOT of M8 users that never had any problem. Reading the forums and articles probably scared me. I wanted to make sure the $ is well spent and not become an expensive paper weight.<br /> <br />Viable solution is to purchase an M8.2. I know this is still stocked at dealers where it carries warranty period. I think the warranty is good to have for peace of mind specially with digital M. <br />Reason for selling the M8 - Peace of mind. I almost bought an M8.2 from popflash with warranty but the price was almost nearing the M9.<br /> <br />At the present, I used the money to get a super minty M6 Classic for $1000.00. The remaining $1300 was used to purchase a 35mm lux pre-asph (well I added more $). The M6 is just as good as the MP at a lesser price point. The MP is really an M6 with added improved features but it is priced close to M8.2. It that's the case, you might as well get an M8.2? Only you can decide. The immediate plan is use Dlux4 for digital, use M6 for film. I want to improve my skills so I might as well go learn film and then work on digital. At a $1000 price point the M6 can be part of your gear that will last you a lifetime. At least you can have a piece of Leica history where Leica was synonymous to film camera excellence.<br /> <br />Going off tangent a bit - Sherry (someone asked who she is? Sherry is famed Leica repair person; when you dont want to give business to Leica, Sherry can do it cheaper and a "little" faster) does not like the M7 because of the reliability. It is the first electronic shutter and it was mentioned it is not reliable compared to the mechanical Ms. The M7 was the first Leica I've ever seen. It was from the movie "Euro Trip" which I enjoyed a lot. I was young then and my research on price for the M7 was out of the question. Now, all grown up, hobbies like photography is doable especially when you travel to different parts of the world and the only memories that you have are your pictures. Granted, it can be achieved using P&S which I used in my first Euro trip in 2005 and regretted it because I had a 2-megapixel camera. Fast forward to 2009 and I was back for Eurotrip 2 with the Dlux4 and was very thankful. It's a P&S but very capable of awesome images. In between those years, I had dSLR Nikons and got bored with it due to weight. <strong></strong><br /> Future plan is to save up for an M9. I plan to take a photography class so I can take advantage of the student discount. =)</p>

[l_dasousa]

<blockquote>

<p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=714827">John Shriver</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub7.gif" alt="" /><img title="Frequent poster" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/2rolls.gif" alt="" /></a>, Apr 29, 2010; 02:46 p.m.<br>

There are plenty of DSLR's with just as serious IR sensitivity problems as the M8, and there isn't a great fury about them. In many <a href="../leica-rangefinders-forum/00WM6q" target="_blank">applications</a>, the IR sensitivity just isn't an issue. So it is somewhat overblown, but not to deny it's a real problem.<br /> Just buy only lenses that use E39 filters, and then you only need one filter for those times it's an issue.</p>

</blockquote>

 

<blockquote></blockquote>

<p>Can you name the "plenty" of <em><strong>currently</strong> production</em> DSLR's with "just as serious IR sensitivity problems as the M8? In fact can you name even <em>one</em>? </p>

 

 

<p> </p>

[ron_breeze2]

<p>I used an M8 for three years and had the frame line and shutter upgrade done. I loved the camera and Leica optics are hard to beat. I primarily shot B&W and B&W IR but only experienced the fringing and IR issues with color once so I had a hard time figuring out what all the complaining was about. My reason for selling all my Leica equipment did not have to do with the quality of the images but the complete lack of service from Leica. I sent a lens in that was less than three years old for warranty repair (it had to be completely rebuilt after two years!) and it took Leica NJ three months to get to it. It took them two months to 6 bit code my 21 and only because I wrote a letter directly to Mr. Kauffman did I get it back in that short of time. I was in the photographic retail sector for 17 years and never saw anything that bad from any other manufacturer. Imagine your M8 goes out and you don't have it for three months or more! to me that is inexcusable. I've kept two of my favorite M mount lenses for possible future use on a micro 4/3's system once the bugs are worked out, but until Leica gets their act together on service will not spend my money on their products. </p>

[uilnosaj]

<p>i have used my m8 to take touristy 'like' landscape shots but i wouldn't depend on it or use it seriously for it especially if you have invested in filters and filter holders.</p>

<p>i have both canon 5dmk2 and m8. if i had to pick only one to keep and use for the rest of eternity it would be my m8.</p>