Still a newbie and need advice on firing strobe lighting

[bobbie_berenson]

<p>I am taking a portrait class where my instructor brings in all his gear and lets the students shoot. Today was a demonstration of how to set up the equipment, meter, etc, but no real shooting yet, but we had the opportunity to shoot briefly at the end of class. I have the K20d and I couldn't get the pocketwizard to fire the strobes. Do I need something (an adapter) to help my camera talk to the transmitter or could something be wrong w the hotshoe? I am new to studio lighting and my instructor is clueless unless it's a Canon or a Nikon. (I did a search on this forum, but didn't see anything that fit the bill. I admit that I could have missed it.) Can someone help a completely clueless newbie, please? Plain English is always appreciated!<br>

Thanks!<br>

Bobbie</p>

[starvy]

<p>Bobbie, why don't you find out what the Canon or Nikon would take and then look for that in Pentax? What kind of receiver does the strove setup have? Have you setup the channels correctly in transmitter and receiver?</p>

[Matt Laur]

<p>Does your camera have a PC connector that you can try instead of the PW? Was he using the older-style PWs (kind of tall, with a couple inches of antenna), or the new flat-style ones that are - for the moment - Canon-specific? If it was the good old standard PWs, then your hotshoe should work fine ... as long as you have your camera in a mode that will actually trip the hotshoe. You may have to go into a manual exposure mode (and should anyway), and make sure that you have your shutter speed at or below the camera's flash synch speed. Usually 1/200th or slower would do the trick.</p>

[bobbie_berenson]

<p>Starvy - Not sure what you mean by find out what the Canon/Nikon would take and then look for that. It was working fine w the other Canons/Nikons in the class - it was just mine. A guy w a Sony had an adapter of some kind so that's what made me think maybe I needed one. The test button on the transmitter fired the strobes, but not the Pentax.</p>

<p>Matt - The transmitter was what you described as the old style ("(kind of tall, with a couple inches of antenna"). I had it in manual mode, but my shutter speed may have been 250. I don't remember trying it at a lower shutter speed. So you think that the PW should have worked in this case? There is an x-synch socket which seems like that could be the PC connector? Any troubleshooting tips otherwise?</p>

<p>Thanks for your thoughts.</p>

[michael_elenko]

<p>Bobbie,<br>

Try shooting below 1/180. I use a PW off-the-shelf on my K20D with zero issues.</p>

<p>ME</p>

[bobbie_berenson]

<p>Michael - Thanks!! Too bad I have to wait a whole week to see if I can get it to work. I appreciate your thoughts.</p>

[jeremy_corbin]

<p>Bobbie, ME said it perfectly. The sync speed on the Pentax is slower than those on the CaNikons. The CaNikons can shoot at 1/250 and you can't. You must set it for 1/180 or less. I usually shoot at 1/125 or slower anyway to gather more ambient light, but 1/180 is perfectly adequate. You shouldn't have to make any other adjustments. Your f-stop will be the same as theirs, your ISO should be the same as theirs. Any hotshoe trigger should work just fine with these settings. Oh...And PLEASE tell me you're in Manual mode. :-)</p>

[michael_elenko]

<p>Jeramiah (or others),<br>

To stay in the spirit of this thread, have you ever used a Cactus? It's a cheapy knockoff of the PW. I bought one used a year ago and have never gotten it to work. I've tested it with the same exact setup as the PW to no avail. Not a big loss, but frustrating. Just wondering. . .</p>

<p>ME</p>

[bobbie_berenson]

<p>Jeremiah - Yes, I'm in manual =). Even though I still haven't figured out what I'm doing w the strobes, the meter, and my settings yet. That's next week's class.</p>

<p>So let me ask this... I wanted to get a strobe (or 2) so I can take pictures of my daughter, who is 14 months. 1/180 is sometimes just a touch too slow. So does that mean that I would not be able to go higher w a strobe or just the PW... I guess I'm asking, if I were to get a synch cord, would that allow me to go w a faster shutter speed or am I limited with the strobe regardless?</p>

<p>Thanks</p>

[jeremy_corbin]

<p>ME- I have the cactusv4. It's an adequate (read: cheap&works) setup. All of the shots I've posted with directional lighting have used that setup. I'd try making sure both the transmitter and receiver are on the same channel, that the batteries in both are in good shape, and that the on switch is correct on the receiver. It sounds straight forward, but I missed the on switch part when I first got them... I expected them to work on fairy dust apparently.</p>

<p>Bobbie, If 1/180th is too slow for you than 1/250th on the CaNikon would be no better. Keep this in mind though: When working with a strobe, 1/180th is MUCH different than 1/180th with natural light. The flash is only on for a fraction of a second... (1/10000 of a second?) even on full power. It should be more than adequate to capture your kiddo. This is how all of those "jump shots" on flickr are possible. I routinely capture my kids, and my biggest beef isn't with flash-sync speed.... but AF. My kit lens is entirely too slow, so I usually have to take TONS of shots just to have a decent amount of keepers.<br>

You can look into HSS (high speed sync) if you believe you need something faster, but I don't know that much about it.</p>

[michael_elenko]

<p>Jeremy, thanks for the advice. I'll reset and try again, but a part of me is thinkin' that someone sold me a faulty Cactus and that's that. Something like that happens sooner or later and at least the cost was very minimal.</p>

<p>I also am totally in synch with the advice you provided Bobbie. I'd only add that this is where the technical part of the show ends and the photographer's creativity begins. I'd chat with working photographers who specialize with toddlers for tips on keeping them engaged for more than 1/250th of a second. A simple prop like a clown nose on you may also help (my father-in-law became a hospital clown as a retirement career and he taught me a few things).</p>

<p>Bobbie I would purchase the best strobe you can afford that will meet your requirements. If you are eyeing shots beyond your family that factor that in. I'm a big Metz fan, but it is more important to learn how to do things totally manually. You can secure one or two older Sunpak or Vivitar flashes (Strobist is the site to check out) rather cheaply that will work really well.</p>

<p>ME</p>

 

[paul_noble]

<blockquote>

<p>So let me ask this... I wanted to get a strobe (or 2) so I can take pictures of my daughter, who is 14 months. 1/180 is sometimes just a touch too slow. So does that mean that I would not be able to go higher w a strobe or just the PW... I guess I'm asking, if I were to get a synch cord, would that allow me to go w a faster shutter speed or am I limited with the strobe regardless?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>On a Pentax dslr, 1/180 is the fastest shutter speed at which the entire shutter is open at once. At faster speeds, the trailing shutter begins closing before the leading shutter has finished opened. This results in a moving slit across the sensor. Nikon and Canon allow you to shoot faster than their max synch speed, even though part of the image will be clipped. Pentax does not allow this. At faster than 1/180, it will refuse to fire the flash.</p>

<p>When taking a flash picture indoors, the flash usually controls the exposure and its duration is typically 1/1000 second or, very often, much faster. It can be as fast as 1/50,000 second if the subject is close. The shutter speed of 1/180 is only a problem if the ambient light in the room is enough to give you a recognizable image at the f-stop you are using for the flash. If the ambient exposure is two or more stops less than the flash, you shouldn't have a problem.</p>

<p>With Pentax or compatibile flashes, that use the proprietary P-TTL protocol, you can use a technique called High-Speed Synch (HSS). This allows you to shoot at faster shutter speeds. The shutter is still only a moving slit, but the flash fires multiple times during the exposure. You get a higher actual shutter speed but you actually lose action-stopping ability. If, for example, you shoot at 1/500, and the subject is moving too fast for that speed to stop the action, the flash will not, because by firing multiple times, it is effectively a continuous light. If that shutter speed is enough to stop the action, then you're okay.</p>

<p>AFAIK, the pocket wizards do not work with the P-TTL protocol, so they can not remotely trigger a flash in HSS mode, even if the flash is capable of it. They will do it for Canon and Nikon cameras/flashes, but not Pentax. The PW will only fire the flash in manual mode. For studio flashes, this is okay, because they are usually manual-only, anyway. You have a choice of flash power, but no real camera-to-flash communication.</p>

<p>Paul Noble </p>

[pj_vesterback]

<p><em>"Pentax does not allow this. At faster than 1/180, it will refuse to fire the flash."</em></p>

<p>Exactly! I was reminded about this the other day and felt like an idiot. Thought the camera was broken. Messed around with the hotshoe... cleaned it... refit the remote numerous times. Last was to pop out the battery. Then it worked... that's when I realized my shutter was at 1/200s... DOH!!! </p>

[snik75]

<p>Patrick, I have done the same thing. "WHY WON'T IT FI... oh."</p>

[jeremy_corbin]

<p>I've done that as well. I had the ISO cranked for an indoor shot and then put the camera away. I took it out an hour later and went outside and wonder why EVERYTHING was a blown highlight...</p>

<p>Note to self: ISO 1600 does not bode well outside in the bright sun.</p>

[pj_vesterback]

<p>Nick... Jeremiah... must be great minds... The ISO... I've done that too many times to count. Head out side and wonder why my shutter speed is 1/2000s.</p>

[johnw436]

<blockquote>

<p>So let me ask this... I wanted to get a strobe (or 2) so I can take <a href="http://www.photo.net/pentax-camera-forum/00WCpN#" target="_blank">pictures</a> of my daughter, who is 14 months. 1/180 is sometimes just a touch too slow</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Not with strobes it isn't. The speed of the flash stops the motion. When you are shooting with strobes they produce enough light to expose the image in a very short amount of time. Your shutter speed isn't controlling the exposure, it's only controlling how much extra light (ambient light) gets into the image.</p>

<p>Assuming you are shooting on a tripod, the strobe does the work and you won't get any blur. Handheld you can still get camera shake if you get too low on the shutter speed. </p>

<p>This is a really fun sight. A few hours cruising around here and you'll be way ahead:<br>

<a href="http://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/03/lighting-101.html">http://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/03/lighting-101.html</a></p>

[johnw436]

<blockquote>

<p>Patrick, I have done the same thing. "WHY WON'T IT FI... oh."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>LOL! Guilty! How do you know when you shoot too much film? When you keep dialing up your flash power because you forget you can bump the ISO on the fly.</p>

[bobbie_berenson]

<p>Thanks everyone. I appreciate your thoughts. The forum is awesome and you folks are so helpful. Thanks again.</p>

[robert_sholl]

<p>I bought an AFG-360 and if I had it to do over, I would get a Metz. It has already been to the shop once and it is starting to act up again. When it works, it is brilliant but then it will just get "tired" and stop working right.</p>

[michael_kuhne]

<p>Bobbie- why is 1/180 sometimes a touch too slow? Fast action problem? Or are you shooting fill in bright ambient light needing a higher shutter speed for the aperture you are using?</p>

<p>Often when people are doing some portrait shooting outdoors in bright daylight, some fill flash is called for to fill in deeply shadowed areas of the face, yet to blur the background so the subject stands out better, a wide aperture is needed, hiking the shutter speed up over 1/180 sec. Using a HS capable unit as suggested is one good way to deal with that situation also.</p>

[paul_noble]

<blockquote>

<p>Often when people are doing some portrait shooting outdoors in bright daylight, some fill flash is called for to fill in deeply shadowed areas of the face, yet to blur the background so the subject stands out better, a wide aperture is needed, hiking the shutter speed up over 1/180 sec. Using a HS capable unit as suggested is one good way to deal with that situation also.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>For outdoor portrait fill flash, HSS would be a good solution. Someone sitting for a portrait rarely moves very fast, if at all. Remember, though, that with HSS, the action stoppping comes from the shutter speed, not the flash. In "normal" flash, at or below 1/180 second, the flash stops the action.<br>

<br />For very fast action, you would need a very high shutter speed, even if you are using a flash. For example, 1/250 might not be fast enough to stop the motion of a bicyclist. In HSS mode, the flash is essentially a continuous light source, not an instantaneous one.<br />Paul Noble</p>