Helpless: eBay Leica fraud (had been cheated $3300)

[joseph_cheng3]

<p>Dieter, you are correct, it is not worth to sue him. Should I believe that there is no Justice in the world? or, Justice is just for the rich people only? I am confused...<br>

But I feel a bit better now as you guys are such helpful and eager to discuss my case.<br>

Thanks so much.<br>

I am not rich, this lesson is too expensive to me...</p>

[joseph_cheng3]

<p><a href="/photodb/user?user_id=2012534">Michael Howard</a> So Michael, how can you explain that almost all Germany eBay sellers want bank payment and the buyers accept this form of payment?...Just out of curious...</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p>It's down to pretty much Paypal, Bidpay, and maybe one or two others I can't remember.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Bidpay ceased operation more than two years ago, Dec. 31, 2007 to be exact. Somewhere on the paypal site is a list of approved payment methods and here is ebay's recommendation: http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?HelpSearchNextGen&action=0&searchString=money+order<br /> I am not totally up-to-date on this but it appears that finally money orders have been disfavored - this wasn't the case a few years ago.</p>

<p>Also, and very important: Joseph, you may still want to get some legal advise from your lawyer - you can then better decide whether or not to pursue legal action.</p>

[mike_hitchen]

<p>Dieter - the quote you posted from Paypal's conditions is not, as I understand it, there as an escrow service but gives them the option of following money-laundering investigations (the 'risk' bit). If it was there for escrow srvices I think it would have to be all-or-nothing (not select transactions). There are an increasing number of pissed off PayPal users who have sold expensive items and PayPal have held onto the money claiming they are carrying out due diligence on the legitimacy of the sale and it is not a money-laundering operation. In some cases people have reportedly waited years (literally) to get their money even though the purchaser has supported their claim the goods have been received in good condition. The more cynical have claimed that it is a way of Paypal holding onto money to claim interest - but that is supposition of course.<br>

If you google PayPal you will find heaps of threads on this. It is for this reason I refuse to buy or sell expensive items on ebay and am deeply distrustful of it.</p>

[sang_lee2]

<p>As far as I know, there is a internet fraud division in FBI. A friend of mine had similar experience with his automobile purchase(he made downpayment of several thousand dollars) and he got hold of the internet fraud division in FBI. I believe he got his money back, although it took a while.<br>

Might as well look into that. </p>

[daverhaas]

<p>I'm surprised that ebay allows payment other than paypal any more. But apparently they have to to avoid anti trust action.</p>

<p>I've bought and sold on ebay for a number of years - and have only had 2 problem transactions out of several hundred. One as a buyer and one as a seller. In both instances I was found to be in the right and got my money back via paypal.</p>

<p>As for the benefit of contacting the FBI - chances are for such a small amount they will not even look at it. Normally to get them to take action - it has to be big - either in scope or $ and sorry - $3300.00 doesn't come close to big. </p>

<p>Another thing to consider - I have seen an increasing number of e-bay accounts getting hacked. I almost bought a nikon D2x from a hacked account 3 years ago. When I looked at the account's past history and didn't see any buying or selling of cameras or camera gear I became suspious. That delay was long enough for ebay / the real owner to figure out that the account had been hacked and that someone was using it to scam unsuspecting buyers into giving out their paypal account information.</p>

<p>Good luck in getting your money back.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[Mike Howard]

<p>Here is the list of allowed payment types for the US. Undoubtedly, other countries have similar lists. Note that money orders etc. are not approved methods. Yup, sorry about Bidpay, it's Propay I was thinking of. </p>

<p>http://pages.ebay.com/help/pay/accepted-payment-methods.html</p>

<p>The link will probably be deleted, as I believe all links to ebay are...<br>

As far as your question, Joseph, I can only go by what the 3 Germans who use ebay told me about your comment. Perhaps they are extraordinary, and most other Germans use unsecure methods.</p>

[dave_s]

<p><em>When I looked at the account's past history and didn't see any buying or selling of cameras or camera gear I became suspicious. </em><br>

<em> </em><br>

David is right on the money here. Another thing to look at is their other 'items for sale'. If the seller has a mixture of expensive camera lenses, high-end sewing machines, mountain bikes, stereo equipment, ATVs-- well, assume the account's been hacked by a slimeball. </p>

<p>Expensive sewing machines seem to be a favorite category for the scammers. I suppose that people who sew tend to have traditional skills and values, and may not be as savvy about internet slimery, but maybe that's just a stereotype. </p>

[Tony Rowlett]

No, the link won't be deleted. Too useful! Thanks for posting.

[Dieter Schaefer]

<p>Mike Hitchen - regarding the quote from paypal's user agreement. I agree with you that it is not an escrow system (and stated as much already but possibly not clearly enough) but believe it might explain what Ed Rodgers experienced. Thanks for the additional info though. Paypal certainly isn't perfect but IMHO it's the best there is.</p>

<p>I believe that the German's reliance on bank transfer might partially be based on the lack of knowledge on how hard it is to actually reverse a transfer (and hence a false sense of security) and the lack of other options. Credit cards are rather unusual in Germany and also work differently - more like debit cards here in the US. Liability limits are also different - not at all like in the US.</p>

[walter_strong5]

<p>How many times, HOW MANY TIMES, have I heard about scams on E-Bay and Craig's List? I quit going to those sites YEARS ago.</p>

[Rob F.]

<p>A local camera store has a slogan: "If you don't know cameras, know your camera dealer." This applies on the internet. There are certain dealers online that we all know are reputable. Cameta camera; Bergen county Camera; KEH.com; B&H; Henry's in Canada. There are only a few that come to mind. There are of course others. Sherry Krauter for Leica gear. Igor Resnik. Popflash (Tony Rose). I try to stick to reputable dealers, online or otherwise. Ask on the forum. Sorry to hear about your situation, Joseph. I hope it's resolved in your favor. </p>

[buffdr_rasouliyan]

<p>I haven't read all the above post but I too got ripped off on Ebay. About 2 years ago I purchased a used 5D. After the auction I got a sad story about how paypal is not worth it. I too did a wire transfer and lost. He took the money and I never got to find out who. His account is live at the bank but they won't give me his address. I'm normally a very easy going guy but I would do 10 years in jail just to get him back for he did to me. That's how strong I feel about thieves. I hold a grudge for a lifetime. About a month later, Ebay sent me a 300.00 eBay bucks to spend with Paypal. I hate thieves. I work way to hard for my money. v/r Buffdr</p>

[brucecahn]

<p>Very sorry this happened. You must use Paypal or a credit card on Ebay. </p>

[starvy]

<p>Never use ebay for expensive transactions. Paypal, when it works is great but there are too many horror stories about people being unfairly ripped off by paypal. I myself had been treated very badly by paypal and would not use them again.<br>

Find out the email and postal addresses or ebay.com ceo and topdogs. Keep on pestering them with emails and snailmail. It is a lot of money. Contact your local newspaper and see if they are willing to run a story on this. Keep on posting links to the auction wherever you can. If you can publicise enough, evil fleabay would end up doing something or other.</p>

[marc_felber1]

<p>if he holds he funds in a us bank BOA, you can get a court order to have his funds frozen, until you can legal action in court to win judgement against him for fraud failure to deliver on promised goods. </p>

[thomas_hardy1]

<blockquote>

<p>A local camera store has a slogan: "If you don't know cameras, know your camera dealer." This applies on the internet. There are certain dealers online that we all know are reputable. Cameta camera; Bergen county Camera; KEH.com; B&H; Henry's in Canada. There are only a few that come to mind. There are of course others. Sherry Krauter for Leica gear. Igor Resnik. Popflash (Tony Rose). I try to stick to reputable dealers, online or otherwise. Ask on the forum. Sorry to hear about your situation, Joseph. I hope it's resolved in your favor.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I got outbid over and over and over on ebay looking for a Leica. I finally bought a mint m6 ttl from Tony Rose (Popflash). </p>

<p>It used to be said that you could safely buy from the classifieds on photo forums but, even on Rangefinderforum you see a member with a solid posting history (daily contributing member of the community) sometimes go rouge and steal money. <br>

Go figure.</p>

[thomas_hardy1]

<blockquote>

<p>sorry, double post</p>

</blockquote>

[peter_kervarec]

<p>I am very sorry to hear that has happened to you. If that much is at stake why not go there? AFAIK Paypal do not hold payment until goods are received. In hundreds of transactions I have had, never heard of it once. What I will say is that PAYPAL is also fraught with danger. I know 2 people who sold expensive items on eBay and were paid via Paypal. They sent the goods and all was fine until they were notified 3 months later that the buyer was using a stolen identity. Paypal did a chargeback and blamed the respective banks for that. These people lost their goods and their money. The consumer hasnt got a hope in hell of fighting Paypal or a big bank. So be very careful. Paypal not so safe as they would have you believe.</p>

[vic_.]

<p>Joseph, So sorry to hear about this situation. You could try contacting Bank of America, and they could investigate for you, once they see what has happened. Also, the FBI is very conscious about preventing internet based fraud, so that might be a course of action too.</p>

<p>A few years ago, I sent money by Western Union to someone in Spain. I was a newbie, what did I know. Thankfully, I got a call a few days later from Western Union advising me to cancel the transaction, as they suspected it to be a fraud. I thought they were joking, but they were serious. I got my money back ($800), less the original Western Union fee. I feel lucky, but stupid too, because I should never have sent money without any form of protection.</p>

<p>The only way I deal now is sending money via PayPal and USING A CREDIT CARD. PayPal is fine up to a point, but your credit card company is the best protection you have.</p>

<p>I hope you get your money back, even though it is a difficult process.</p>

[rf_newbie_john]

<p>The account was indeed hacked. You made an offer on an item or bid on a 24hr auction? Ebay does not remove ended auctions unless it was a hacked account. (normally deleted in 3 months)<br /> It is not a bad thing to pay with Wire transfer. I have done it many times myself. But you must investigate the sale first. Call ebay if you are spending that much money. Do not send any money until you are sure.<br /> Usually hacked accounts do not last 2 days before the auctions are terminated and the listing removed. This is why most hacked auctions are only 24hr auctions. We turn in hackers almost daily on ebay and it can take anywhere from a couple hours to a couple days for ebay to cancel the auctions and regain control of the accounts.<br /> The important thing is to investigate the auctions.<strong><em> DO NOT make OFFERS on auctions</em></strong> or make payments directly to paypal or bank transfers, especially for large amounts of cash. <strong><em></em></strong><br /> <strong><em>The only real protection you have with paypal is an auction won on ebay and payed through ebay</em> <em>with paypal.</em></strong><br /> Payments made directly to paypal, <em>around</em> ebay is not covered for a buyer. Just be a smart buyer and never send money until you are sure.</p>

[joseph_cheng3]

I did contact BOA immediately, after I found that it is a fraud (about

few days after I wired the money).

 

I phoned to BOA many times and the staffs either gave me another

phone numbers or simply said that they need to protect their clients'

privacy so they can do nothing for me - money had been wired. It is his

money already.

 

I don't expect I can get back my money but at least eBay can show me

the progress of their investigation, but not just unregistered the seller

and then closed the case...

[oskar_ojala]

<p>While I can't really help with your problem, I can shed a little bit of light on auctions in Europe.<br>

First of all, bank transfers were the common means to pay for items on eBay Germany. The reasons seem to be that bank transfers inside the Euro zone are very easy to do and there aren't the associated PayPal fees. Now PayPal is a lot more common (mandated by eBay? I don't know) and often sellers who do not list PayPal agree to it if the buyer pays the costs.<br>

Second, these sorts of frauds do occur on a steady basis in Europe too. But staying in Europe, it's not too hard to ask the police to investigate. This will typically not bring the money back, but putting the seller in serious trouble does some help in trying to keep the Internet cleaner. Also, bank details can't easily be faked to the full identity of the seller is available to the authorities.<br>

In any case, I would never go with a bank transfer for any significant amount of money unless the seller was an actual physical store, in which case my consumer rights are much broader (still staying in certain countries only). And now the payment on eBay Germany has really shifted to favor PayPal, so it is reasonable to request the use of that for anything else than insignificant sums.<br>

Still, sorry about your woes, I know this doesn't help much, but you can always try to minimize your losses and not get caught up in the same situation again.</p>

[john_matheo]

<p>Paypal is the safe method going through ebay.</p>

<p>My experience with ebay started last year when I bought my RZ67 Pro II with the prism finder and the extra 150MM lens.</p>

<p>The seller was in Hong Kong, he requested me to send the money via bank swift which I did, taken 10 days time after that to contact him via email and he never answered me, finally he wrote to me telling me that he did not receive the money yet.</p>

<p>I went to my HSBC bank and they made a tracing case where they did after 3 days confirmed that the money was already in his account for more than 8 days.</p>

<p>I wrote again to him and informed him that my bank given me the tracing code and the money is in his account, I forwarded the paper to his embassy and also to the trade court here, they also again contacted his embassy given them his account bank details, I again sent him copies of all of the circulating Documents, this is because I could not wait for his embassy action where they did promise to return my money back, when he received all of those documents, he wrote to me telling me that he just been called by his bank and the money is now in his account, and told me that the items already been posted the same morning where his bank confirmed the money, that was after more than 30 days.</p>

<p>Finally a week later I did receive all of the items.</p>

<p>Paypal, as far as I know is much safer method to deal with sellers on ebay or any other site, now I know that I can transfer any amount of money from my account to my internet card and use Paypal.</p>

<p>In your case, if the seller is at the same country as you are and already you paid 3300 USD, it is to open a court case against him, when he knows the pressure is all around him and he do have your items, he will send them to you.</p>

[manuel barrera houston,]

<p>I have spent thousands of dollars on ebay and on the few times that I have complained about the merchandise, I had no trouble getting my money back, I use paypal only and stick to people that have a history with ebay. By History, I mean that they have been selling items not just buying small items to build up their history. It does tie up your money for a while but paypal has always made good on it. </p>