Digital negatives question

[maria_papas]

Hello,

I have a question about wedding packages for photographers:

If I purchased a package from you a wedding package which included:

16x20 gallery wrap, a 50 page leather story book 12x12 bridal album, 2- 5x7 parent albums with 34 images, a fine art

coffee table album, 1- 11x14 portrait, 4 - 8x10 portraits, 8- 5x7 portraits, 500 boxed proofs, 200 5x7 thank you cards,

a dvd containing high resolution images, engagement session, 2 photographers with 12 hours of photographic

coverage....

 

What would you charge? How many pictures would you take? Would you give me all the digital negatives of the

pictures you took on my wedding day? I live in Flushing, Queens, NY. Thanks.

[a._n.k.]

<p><em>Would you give me all the digital negatives of the pictures you took on my wedding day? </em> <br /> <em><br /> </em> <br /> No good photographer, is going to give you "all" the images taken that day. They should filter through, and be selective on what to give the client. I offer a DVD with High-Resolution images. BUT only what I select to give. It is understood that not every shot will be provided. If I shoot 300 shots during a family/portrait session, you might get 100-150 shots on the DVD.</p>

<p>For the other things you mention. Prices will vary depending on your area/location. Also, will vary on the experience and skill level of the photographer. I'd say a skilled and experienced professional photographer would charge anywhere from $5000-7000 for everything you are asking... in my area. Maybe more... but no less than $5000</p>

[neilambrose]

<p>That's not a question anyone can answer as there are too many variables.</p>

<p>For example - what exactly is a 'fine-art coffee table album'? It's just a catch-all description that could apply equally well to either a $50 digital book from a print on demand website, or a $2000 top of the line handmade album from an artisan supplier.</p>

<p>What's a 'high-resolution image'? The term is used loosely in the industry. I've seen files that would print to a 6x4 and files that would print to 12x18 both described as 'high resolution'.</p>

<p>What's a 'digital negative'? Some people use the term to mean a raw file - literally a DNG, or other unprocessed format. Others use it to mean a printable edited image, usually a JPG. The difference between the two is very significant, both in terms of cost and usefulness to the client.</p>

<p>What's an 'enagement session'? For some people that's a one hour photoshoot in a single location. For others it's an all day affair in multiple locations.</p>

<p>I'm sure you get the picture.</p>

<p>There is of course one other very important factor, and that's the photographer you hire. There is no such thing as a recommended rate for someone's time. Photographers charge what the market says they're worth, which is usually a factor of their skill, experience, reputation and demand.</p>

<p>Different people may tell you what they would charge for the above. But they won't all be talking about the same thing or offering the same product or service.</p>

[mark_t5]

<p>rather than care about what stuff i'm going to get for X price... the more important issue is what are the qualities of the images..</p>

<p>if the images are awesome i'll pay a good amount...but if the images are lame and yucky..you can throw the kitchen sink for all i care and i'll still not pay anything for them.</p>

<p>its my opinion that rather than include stuff in your packages and see how much you can charge for them...concentrate on the images, and the rest will follow.</p>

<p>as for the "how many images would you take" question..you take as many as needed</p>

[wedding-photography-denver]

<p>10K+ and no, you would not get the digital files on your day, more like about 3 - 4 weeks later.</p>

[g.e._masana]

<p>When I see a question like that, I don't believe that educating the consumer to comprehend what's behind the price nor the nuances between photographers and products means much, if anything at all, to them. In my experience, what they're doing is shopping for a bid. By virtue of their specs, they obviously know of available sizes and product offerings, and that's usually because they've already spoken with studios, gotten some product knowledge and have drafted up this wish list of the items they want. They probably even already have gotten prices on it from the photographers they've met, and now, all they want is to find a lesser price bid. <br /> <br /> I call it "shopping for photography by the pound". Their actions denote that they think all photographers are the same, that just the prices differ. To them, it's never about what makes up the price, but only about the price. It's the same thinking behind why buy eggs at 3.99 a dozen when another store carries eggs for 2.99 a dozen, see? There's no difference, eggs are eggs, right? Instead of understanding it's more like: why buy a Mercedes s class for $60,000 when you can buy a used Yugo for about $500. There's no difference, cars are cars, right?</p>

[maria_papas]

<p>Thank you for all your responses. The reason I was asking was because of a private discussion I was having with my husband about photography on this topic.<br>

G.E. Masana, I'm already married, but thanks for your opinion. I drive a BMW not a Mercedes, but that's my preference. I also chose my photographer the same way. I prefered his style over yours. I'm not saying you weren't great...I just liked him BETTER for my own personal reasons. You click?</p>

[juanita_ramirez]

<p>For New York, you likely wouldn't be able to get a competent photographer who gives you all that for less than 5K. On the low end, it would cost you 4k+ even in my small Western market. </p>

<p>I'll skip the self-serving lectures about how fantastic a true pro is compared to someone else. What I will say is that if someone offers to do this package for much less than 5k then you should take a careful look at their work and make sure that they can deliver what they say they can. It's not to say you couldn't find an up-and-comer who could do the job, but you'd be taking a risk in doing so.</p>

<p>That said, you should hold established professionals to the same standard. If you look at their blog and they clearly have mediocre photos (poor white balance, noisy high-iso photos, and unsatisfactory focus on the subject) then you should recognize that even if they charge you 10k or 15k for this package, that they will probably deliver mediocre results. Price is correlated with quality in wedding photography, but not as strongly as some would lead you to believe. Never trust that the highest priced photographer is the best one in your market.</p>

[g.e._masana]

<p>But Maria, nothing in your reply to me negates my tried and true professional experience (not just my"opinion") that when someone asks the kind of questions you presented, it's typically about them shopping around for a bid, and efforts by pros to educate the consumer are typically lost on them as that's not a concern to those folks.</p>

 

[juanita_ramirez]

<p>Mr. Masana,</p>

<p>Don't you think that perhaps you're taking your by the pound analogy a little too far? I think that most clients are sophisticated enough to realize that different photographers (even ones with identical packages as far as "things" that you get) have different skill levels and styles.</p>

<p>Perhaps they value your photography at $X and a competitor's photography at $X+1000 because they believe that the other photographer is more experienced, or more contemporary, or more pleasant to be around. If they value your services at $X and their services at $X+1000, then provided that you can give them the service at $X-100, then they might go with you. Or if you charge $X+100 then they would go with your competitor.</p>

<p>People aren't stupid. They recognize that different photographers have different levels of skill. That said, even if they are looking for value and soliciting bids, that doesn't mean they are purely shopping by the pound. It means that they want to get the best balance of quality and price. Even if you and a competitor offer the same product (as far as "stuff" they get) the cheaper one will not always win. The best value likely will. Value also be more subjective in the wedding photography context. When people tell you "you are the best, you are a great artist!!!" what they really mean is "you were the best that we could afford." I'm sure that there's another photographer somewhere in the world they would have preferred to book--if money was no object. </p>

 

[maria_papas]

<p>G.E. That's what forums are for. To ask questions and get answers. If I was shopping around I would have stated that I was looking to find x package for the best price. The reason I gave my location is because I tried asking this question a different way before and didn't get the answer I was looking for. I love the way you like to put divide between the pro's and the consumers. If these "folks" didn't feel the need to respond, then they wouldn't have. I didn't put a gun to anyone's head to get answers. Some people who love photography also love to talk about it. You, on the other hand, felt the need to acknowledge my question and follow up with an answer full of contempt towards a "probable" consumer. Another thing I also could see you doing with your response was try slap an up and commer off their game. That's not nice either. The same dignity you hold for the work you produce should also be held for your work ethic. I know the photography industry is very cut throat though so I forgive you. P.S. I am NOT a pro photographer so you can lay that to rest right now too. I grew up with photo and video camera's all around me so I truly appreciate their value, and then some. I personally stink at taking photos. I can't even control my point and click camera, so to speak. <br>

Anyway, this is a photography forum, and not a therapy session. I am greatful to all the people who responded in a professional manner. You have all been of great help to me and I appologize for going off topic with G.E. </p>

[maria_papas]

<p>Ms. Ramirez, Very well put. Thank you!</p>

[g.e._masana]

<p>>>Don't you think that perhaps you're taking your by the pound analogy a little too far? I think that most clients are sophisticated enough to realize that different photographers (even ones with identical packages as far as "things" that you get) have different skill levels and styles.>><br /> <br /> I've probably dealt with thousands of inquiries over the last several decades. I still get a few emails a week from brides listing their laundry list and asking for a price. I look at my stats and I see they never even perused through my site; they came upon it in a google search and after literally a scant few seconds in which they perhaps viewed my home page slideshow (and I'm giving them the benefit of a doubt that they did that) they went right to my contact page. And then they exit the site. They're emailing me a form letter. It's evident that all they're doing is looking for a lower price than the last guy quoted them and that they're hitting more than just me.<br /> <br /> So it's typically not a matter that they're seeking more experience, skill set or a certain style or a personality. They're not showing any sign of looking for anything like that. It's more like they come upon any photographer and it's a matter of, "let's ask what his price is". They don't even look at my info page to see what my prices may be - they go right to emailing me their form letter!<br /> <br /> Juanita and Maria, I've been immersed in this industry since 1981 and have in that time, not only run my own successful practice, but have written articles for photography journals; I've been profiled in both Studio Photography and Rangefinder magazines; I even have a book about marketing wedding photography I was approached to write for a trade publisher that's enjoyed publication since 1994. I've been hired as a consultant for other photographers in that time as well. What I write about is drawn from my observations and experience over all that time, with a ton of thought and insight behind it.<br>

With all due respect, you don't know this business like I know this business, do you? <br /> <br /> I was lurking on two other photographer forums, and both of them, coincidentally, had threads running asking the question, "what happened to the more established pros that used to post here?" The replies shed some light as others answered along the lines of "they probably got tired of posting their expertise only to have those newer to the industry belittle their advice and figured 'why the heck should I bother posting here anymore'". And that's how I'm beginning to feel, truthfully. I was wondering why Jeff Ascough doesn't post here regularly.</p>

[juanita_ramirez]

<p>I'm sure that people can appreciate perspectives from those who have been in the game for a while and those who have only been in for a few years. I didn't really say that you were wrong, but I asked you for clarification about what you meant. I will respond to you privately with some other concerns I have.</p>

<p>I might also suggest that your price list is somewhat uniformative to potential clients. I don't really know what I get for your suggested bottom price--as far as hourly coverage anyway.</p>

<p>Maybe clients have it backwards and they should be figuring out who they want first and then asking prices. Some might prefer to know whether they should even <em>bother</em> to look at your portfolio. If you cost too much from the get-go, then why ask. For me, on the other hand, I don't care it clients have it backwards or forwards or any other way, if they like my work and can handle my prices, then we book.</p>

<p>You're welcome to pursue whatever course you'd like. I'm glad that you have all of the experience you do in photography. I hope that it continues to serve you well.</p>

[maria_papas]

<p>G.E. You need to understand that nobody said you didn't have qualifications, expertise, certifications, or that you are not well known in your industry. You need to understand though that you are also dealing with a general public when it comes to people searching through your wedding packages. You are analyzing why they are on your site, how long they spend on your site, so on and so forth??? HOW DO YOU KNOW WHY THEY SPENT ONLY A MINUTE ON YOUR WEBSITE??? As Ms Ramirez stated, people are not stupid when it comes to the different levels of skill, but one thing she also pointed out was that money is also a factor when it comes to hiring a photographer (or anything you pay for in this life).<br>

You need to remember, people typically get married once in their life. The age of getting married is generally 20-40 years old and with that being said you are going to come across a lot of naive 20 year old brides asking for prices, as well as a few well seasoned older brides who have had many of their friends get married before them and have spilled some beans about the in's and out's of their wedding experience. With that being said, we can conclude that experience naturally comes with age.<br>

There are also many other factors to consider about why people are only looking at one page on your website before they request a quote, and I could name some off the top of my head...1) budget- some girls who are just starting out need to know where to begin. You should be flattered that they are even asking you for a price because they are considering hiring you as their photographer. 2)competition- other photographers in your market may be asking to find out what you are charging 3)Gossip- a competitive friend or relative of the bride wants to know what she paid her photographer.<br>

There is a whole realm of endless possibilities to consider as to why people are requesting quotes, possibilities that you should let roll off your back as a cost of doing business and move on to more important tasks. If it bothers you so much that people are only looking for prices, then you should include a price list on your website just for the people who are looking at numbers. In fact, when a business doesn't have prices available for consumers to see in writing they can be fined by consumer affairs. If you are selling something (product or service) it is required BY LAW to have it in writing for anyone who asks, so there is no need to get upset that someone is asking you for a price.<br>

As for your question about why more established pro's are not posting on forums any more... G.E. that's like asking "why did my bird have to die?". The answer is "because", and unless you hear it from the horse's mouth as to why they stopped posting, you are not entitled to fill in the blanks for them. You are entitled to post your opinion, but anyone with half a brain will not take your word for it. Remember, believe only half of what you see and none of what you hear.<br>

I do not know the photography industry the way you know it. You most likely live it, eat it, breathe it, love it, loathe it, day in and day out. I do not revolve my life around photography the way you do. I commend you for everything you have accomplished as a photographer, an artist, and as someone who has given back to the community through your publications and productions. Not very many people, in my opinion, walk through this life with as great passion as you do. I will not, however, take life away from someone who does not share the same passion for something as you have with photography.<br>

Believe me, I can guarantee that if many brides could go back to the day they were married there would be a lot of things they would love to alter about their event. Photographers being one of the few. As a married woman I can at least vouch for myself on that aspect.</p>

[picturesque]

<p><strong>Moderator Note:</strong> Speaking as moderator, I want to request that we all take a step back and take a breath. Vigorous discussion with disagreements is fine, as long as we keep things civil. I feel we are on the verge of passing that boundary. We all have viewpoints and they will undoubtedly differ from others', sometimes very strongly. Yet each viewpoint is valid and as real to the person expressing it, as it is to the one with the opposite view.</p>

<p>Also remember that you cannot negate what another says is their experience--well you can attempt to, but it won't work. And, insinuation, sarcasm, and veiled statements are just as hurtful as direct attacks. There is nothing to win here except increased understanding, and for that, one needs to have an open mind and put out some effort <strong>to</strong> understand.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Not speaking as moderator, I have to say that I agree with Neil's post, above. It would be impossible to put a price tag on the package, except for maybe, a very broad range, which would probably not be useful for being too broad.</p>

<p>I also have to say that my reaction to the question was somewhat similar to G.E.'s. I thought perhaps someone was shopping for that package (as a bride) or a photographer was trying to price that package. Perhaps, Maria, you would have gotten different answers if you explained why you were asking. I didn't answer for the reason I described above.</p>

<p>I'm not saying this to take sides, just to say that what might seem obvious to one person may not be so obvious to another, so before jumping to conclusions and/or accusing others of jumping to conclusions, I'd clarify and give others benefit of the doubt. Seems like this is a bit of a big misunderstanding or getting off on the wrong foot.</p>

[mneace]

<p>Maria, are you related to Chris Papas, who lives on the upper West side of NYC? And thanks for the spirited discussion here.</p>

<p> </p>

[maria_papas]

<p>Nadine, I completely understand your position in this matter. The reason I couldn't state why I was asking was so I can get an unbiased opinion as much as possible from pro-photographers. I agree with you that it was an unfair question and that G.E. responded appropriately according to his beliefs, however he really didn't need to respond- the same way you didn't. I do not hold anything against G.E. AT ALL, but at the same time he was responded to according to his reply towards my question.<br>

G.E. you are a wonderful photographer, POINT BLANK. I have seen some of your pieces and although not all, I really LOVE your work. As I pointed out to you before, if some brides could go back in time and change anything about their wedding production they WOULD. Photography is one of those things. Documented memories are PRICELESS and sometimes quality doesn't match up to memories. If you had a photographer you hired to capture images of your wedding and all he focused on was getting the "properly focused image" and you are handed only a handful of pictures he produces....then your money went straight down the drain and into his pockets. To me that is highway robbery for the price I paid. To others who like to live in the moment and are fly by night, it might work. For instance, what am I going to do with only 3 MAGICAL pictures of my wedding? One of me getting ready, one of my groom getting ready, and one of us right after we got married. Theoretically that is exactly what a wedding is about-two people joining as one. Let's say that is all I paid for, agreed to, and received. If that was all my husband and I wanted then all parties involved would be happy. If you as a photographer are able to capture the happiest moments of our lives with just three pictures you are in the clear. If you are a horrible photographer and cut our heads off in all three of those pictures, only then that is where true quality comes into play. I was fortunate enough to have a very close relative who I revere as a quality photographer in every sense of the word to capture those moments for me, but the professional photographer I hired didn't even come close. He gave me quality photos of what HE thought would hit the spot, and they were excellent as far as composure and artistry, but they really didn't capture the true essense of our matrimony. Not even close. I really can't blame him because he was someone who I didn't know prior to me hiring him, except for what I heard about him from the previous brides he photographed who were all my old friends. I saw that he captured everything I LOVED about those girls. He allowed me to go through all their photographs and I became very sentimental, which was MY MISTAKE. I allowed my feelings to run my business affairs and that is noone else's fault but MY OWN. He was hired based upon a contract I signed and it is exactly what he delivered. He basically saw me comming through the doors. G.E. I appologize for ruffling your feathers. You are a master at work and noone should bother the master while he is working. You want to see and not necessarily want to feel at all times, and for that I appologize for the bother. I am new to this forum and didn't know exactly what or who I was dealing with. Take a look at some bridal forums and you will see some many personalities that are coping with other issues. I wouldn't advise it, but I'm letting you know ;-)<br>

Manuel, if I had a penny for every time I heard that question...but no. I do have family in Manhattan, but not Chris Papas on the UWS.<br>

P.S. I cannot believe this discussion summoned a moderator. I am sorry to all those who became involved with the question.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Maria--don't aplogize for what has been said to date. There is nothing wrong with any of it. I only posted my Note because I could see the conversation drifting toward a crisis, and off topic, too. :^)</p>

<p>As moderator, I basically have to read everything that is posted, so I wasn't summoned--it is my job. Anyway, strong opinions are perfectly fine to express. Just keep discussions civil and we'll all be happy. I hope you continue to post and be involved with photo.net. Welcome, if no one has said that to you before...</p>

<p>Now, getting back to the topic, what is the purpose of asking the question? Perhaps you can still find out what you want to know.</p>

[maria_papas]

<p>Nadine, most importantly I needed to know if all the negatives would/could be given for a wedding shoot. The reason I posted the specifics of a package was for the pro's to understand what range this type of deal would be for. I asked for the price so I can filter through the different price ranges the pro's responded with and only consider the one's which I desire to know. The location was specified in order to place the market area for this package because I am not interested about understanding anyplace other than my surrounding area.<br>

Up until now, I have only heard of pro's who gave all decent photographs taken on that day. The word decent is used loosely as far as quality, in other words anything that was not considered garbage by even the bride.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>OK--so you want to hear from New York area pro photographers as to whether they give any or all the images with a full/high end package such as described, and whether that might vary based on different price packages? Also, what, exactly is meant by images given--resolution, and definition of all--everything, as opposed to edited, with cutting floor images tossed?</p>

<p>If so, I'd ask the question again. I would allow it. But if you do, be specfic, even putting "New York pro photographers" in the question title, and explain why you are asking the question so people have some context to go by to frame their answers. I would not get into asking for specific prices, since that immediately makes people uncomfortable--giving away their prices on a forum. Ranges, OK. Make it easy for someone to answer.</p>

[katrin_d.]

<p>Quite honestly, you lost me. Why don't you let us know what you paid, what you received, what you perceive to be the problem with what happened, if what was delivered (# of images) was part of your contract and what your actual question is? Why would the opinion of a photographer who didn't quote what you paid or doesn't live/work in NYC be less valid?<br>

As far as negatives/all files released are concerned: hell no. One example of a recent wedding: the bridesmaides looked less than thrilled during the ceremony and mom was texting. While the pictures may have been good from a technical/artistical standpoint, the bride never got to see them. It comes down to this: couples trust me to photograph their wedding and trust me to select the photos<em> <strong>I</strong> </em> deem good enough to represent their day and my name<em>. </em> Why release 200 mediocre photos when you can deliver 100 spectacular images?<br>

It doesn't matter if you paid me 1,000 or 10,000 Dollars or ordered X-amount of prints/albums/gallery wraps - it's a matter of quality and reputation so nothing I wouldn't put on my website/blog myself ever goes to clients.<br>

<br /> <em><br /> </em></p>

[neilambrose]

<p>I think you'll get different answers depending on people's business models. It's not necessarily a price relative factor.</p>

<p>Just like Katrin, and for similar reasons, I don't want to be in the business of supplying every image taken. It's just not an option that I provide to anyone. I'm interested in telling visual stories so implicitly I choose to supply only a subset of the images taken. The definition of a 'keeper' for me doesn't have much to do with whether an image is 'good', or whether the client likes it. It's whether I think it belongs in the story. Many of my rejects are as good as my keepers on a technical level.</p>

<p>So I think you'll find that getting 'all the images taken' may be determined by more factors than just price or package or geography.</p>

[maria_papas]

<p>Katrin, I absolutely think an accredited photographer anywhere in this world would be able to answer this question. I just didn't know the best way to approach this topic for a discussion on this forum. As far as releasing only 100 amazing of the 200 midiocre photos...let's say you as the photographer were the only person with a camera there on that day... don't you think if the bride would like to have all of those photos she should? I mean, she is after all paying you for the entire day of work and is depending on you to document her memories. Lets say you did take a lot of photographs that are not of any artistic or quality value to you, do you think it would be out of the realm of possibility for her to even request them or for you to give them? Don't you think those negatives should be something the bride should have if she wants them? How do you feel about deleting photo's while in the process of taking pictures the day of the wedding?? Would you delete more than half of the images you processed into your camera without opening them onto a computer screen first? Is that something safe for a photographer to really do these days with memory sticks being so cheap nowadays? Those camera screens are awfully small and the day is going by awfully fast to be making decisions like that on the fly when people are depending on you, what do you think?<br>

Neil, let's say for argument's sake that your opinion of telling a wedding story doesn't coinside with the bride's story, wouldn't there be a slight problem? Do you really believe that you can artistically represent a bride 100% every single time? I don't know about that. I'm not asking to put you on the spot or even to get an answer, it's just something to think about.<br>

How about if the photographer didn't have any relevant, published or known work...why would his/her artistic representation be the tell all for someone's wedding he is hired to photograph? Shouldn't the bride have a say in the matter? After all...to her and the people she is showing her albums to...it's HER publication as well. If you cannot provide her the proper images to put into her album with HER story, then what good is your story to her? <br>

FYI- I paid between 6 and 7 thousand dollars for the above package, just to clear the curiosity.</p>