The 'Anti-$500' Photog Plan

[ed_lemko]

<p>Steven, you forgot, er, <strong>doctors</strong>.<br>

How's that for scary. Assisted, yes. trained, yes, but still students, operating, at teaching hospitals. </p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong><em>"..... if you have never apprenticed, never been second camera at one, believe me, you don't even have any idea of how the ceremony flows and how the photographer has to work with it, not against it, and without that experience you truly do have no business putting someone else's important day at risk to your inexperience and lack of knowledge.... "</em></strong><br>

<strong><em></em></strong><br>

Robert: Assuming I (or Tony) believes you and agree that Tony has no idea how the Ceremony flows and how the Photographer has to work with that . . .</p>

<p>The next question is: how much does the Purchaser bear this responsibility of “<strong><em>putting someone else's important day at risk to your inexperience and lack of knowledge”</em></strong></p>

<p>It seem to me that Tony intends to present his service openly and honestly – explain to me why the buyer should not be free to choose from a range of services on offer.</p>

 

<p >Also, your argument seems to inhibit the concept of fair play, open competition and a free market place environment, where offers for sale (or gratis) are honestly displayed and from which people can choose freely. </p>

<p ></p>

<p >Why do you (or anyone else) have the right limit these fundamental principles of free and fair trade - of free and fair Offer and Acceptance of Goods and Services?</p>

<p > </p>

 

[robert100]

<p>i'm curious as to why, for anyone intending to enter the profession of photography, what doctors or lawyers or indian chiefs do on a wedding day would matter ? here's a scenario... during many the ceremonies of many churches there is a "lighting of the candles" which takes place... the bride and the groom at the altar in the front of the church together light a candle in symbolism... they do this with their backs turned to the people in the "audience"... do you know how, as a real pro does, to "coach" the bride and groom in advance of the wedding, as to how they can open their stance to make that (a) more visible and meaningful to the people, and (b) extremely more photographic for you and for their album ? no ? how about do you know how to get together with the priest or minister in advance and ensure he/she is willing to let you do certain things to gain a photograph ? no ? then experience is what you need, because knowing how to work with the clergy is vital to you...another expample... during some churches ceremonies there are events like stompingg on wine glasses... do you know when that takes place, and how to gain a great photo of it ? the place you need to be in advance to capture it well ? no ? well, see, you gain those things through experience of watching a qualified and experienced pro do them.... i'll give you one to play with... what do you do when you're all set to take a photo and running on a tight time schedule to get the work done so they can get to the next part of the day, and suddenly the bride "cracks up", starts weeping so hard, and for so long it throws all the timing off ... are you experienced enough to handle those situations - or do you even have enough experience to know those things even happen on those days ? you are not going to be practicing doing rembrandt lighting on a mannequin, you are going to be working wiht live people who are "amateurs at being photo'd", and that demands that YOU know how to be the professional on the day... and that doesnt matter if you are doing it free, or for five hundred bucks, or for fifty grand.... </p>

[William Michael]

<p > </p>

<p><strong><em>"barber schools have been doing this for years" </em></strong><br>

<br>

The Hairdresser I worked with, regularly attended a convention of sorts each year - it was in a big City Hotel - they needed "heads" to show the creations of the Salon's 3rd and 4th year Apprentices. </p>

<p>The deal was, the model gets a "free" hairstyle (maybe "worth" $300 in salon) but she does not know what the style will be and has no control over it.<br>

<br>

Regularly, each year there would be couple of Budget Conscious Brides take up the offer each and booked ahead to get the Saturday or Friday morning hair session. </p>

<p>Crikey! we should shut that practice down, as a wrong hairstyle might just ruin a Bride's Special day . . .<br>

<br>

WW</p>

[juanita_ramirez]

<blockquote>

<p>Oh come on. You really need to read my post. You completely missed my points.<br>

OK. CS2 + lightroom. Fine. My point is that he needs a good version of Photoshop and more importantly needs to know how to use it. I see you disagree. Why do you think he does not need this tool and the ability to use it?<br>

You say I put too much emphasis on gear. Again the opposite of what I said. You appear to think it is OK to shoot a wedding without an external flash and spare body. Good luck with that.<br>

You don't want to go to classes? Fine. Don't. I have been doing this for 40 years and I still learn from others. Since you already know all there is about photography it would indeed be worthless for you to go to classes.<br>

So you think I am trying to lead people astray when I tell a non-pro that they need to study the craft, learn from the experience of others, have an appreciation for their tools and always seek to improve? I disagree with you. There is all together too much sugar-coating going on here. If your notion is that he should just go out there and take a couples most important day and use it for trial by error training until he stumbles on to the right answer they you are the one who is leading him astray. Tough love is love. Platitudes are contemp.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I think he needs photoshop and needs to know how to use it. That you felt the need to specify only CS4 with guns blazing suggests to me that you meant it. Anyone else reading that would come away with the same impression.</p>

<p>You need an external flash and an extra body, didn't contest that. Your post has a general gear-head-esqe vibe. I probably picked that up from your brazen comments about CS4.</p>

<p>You may have been doing this for 40 years and I applaud you for continuing to learn. I look at the courses offered by most wedding photographers and I'm not particularly impressed. Even the big names offer little in the way of new instruction. When I see a shoot that I can't replicate with better results, then I'll sign up for that photographer's class. I'm sure that for a beginner classes and apprenticeship would help. That said, you suggested that classes were necessary and I dispute that. The ones offered by my local PPA-like chapter are taught by people who don't know how to use their digital equipment effectively and are still wowed by photoshop actions. These kinds of classes aren't beneficial for a photographer like me. They might be for the beginner of beginners.</p>

[robert100]

<p>to william w... i'm not in any sense suggesting a limitation on anyone's right to free trade, or sell whatever service they want at any price they want, nor anyone else's right to purchase anyone's service they want, for any price they want... my comments are aimed specifically and solely at maintaining (or even developing in may people's cases) the attitude of professionalism and responsibility which should go hand in hand with the word "profession"... <br>

there is nothing limiting the guy down the block from me who does auto repairs in his dirt filled garage from doing them, nor anything preventing anyone from paying him to do his amateurish work on their cars.... but the real pros in the business, the ones who have the knowledge and skills it takes to do an honestly correct repair on your car, stand for an "ethic" which is head and shoulders above that.<br>

as to the question of where one can find a mentor ? if you are in canada or the u.s., i'll give you a tip, there is an organization known as PPOC - the professional photographers association of canada, and its counterpart in the u.s...... its members clearly indicate their membership in their ads, hunt for someone in your locale who is a member, and call them and ask them how to find a mentor... the people who have dedicated themselves to the levels of professional membership in those organizations stand for are the most sharing-caring pros you will ever meet... does that mean one is going to leap forth to do it ? not necessarily, so it may be hard to find someone... but you know what ? it doesn't matter if it is gaining the experience and knowledge to do a good job at photography, or football, or being an accountant, this is a simple truth... "if it was easy, everyone would be doing it"</p>

<p> </p>

[john_h.1]

<p><em>the OP is insisting on working for free, and in spite of the fact that many who feed their families or their BMW gas tanks with the money they earn.</em></p>

<p>There's no evidence that anything is being done in spite of other photographers nor are they entitled to anything.</p>

[lee_richards2]

<p>I find most of the objections to professionals encouraging him to get more experience before he goes messing with someone's special day comes from people who seem to think that being poor means you have to accept someone who is clueless. </p>

<p>So consider. Suppose a wealthy couple pays a top pro $5000.00 for the wedding. This is no big deal for them. But if a poor person pays a photographer $500.00 it is a VERY big deal to them. They both deserve the best the photographer can offer. That is why I asked Tony what he had done to prepare himself. He has been working on it. Good on him. He seemed to agree with some of my points about self education. Our local library system has a great selection of books on wedding photography. After his answers I would probably be happy to mentor him if he was in my area. And pay him as a second shooter. </p>

<p>I suggested he get models and practice in situ as it were. What is wrong with that? So I am the bad guy that wants him to invest some serious sweat equity in his new business. For business it is. No. I guess like everything else today it ought to be easy. Buy a few thousand dollars worth of cameras and Bobs your uncle; you're a professional wedding photographer. Just tell the unsuspecting B&G that you are cheap because you are just starting out and you have no responsibility to prepare. Just show up and practice on them. It is not even reasonable to ask a new person what kind of workflow process they have.</p>

<p>Sometimes the kind thing to do is speak directly. If that makes me a jerk then so be it. I'll be a jerk. Three pro-bono weddings this year and I am a jerk. But I gave Tonly some good food for thought. And that is what good people do for other good people. </p>

[William Michael]

<p >to robert anderson... </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Thank you for your quick clarification stating that you did not mean to impose upon anyone’s rights to free trade, and also the “mechanic” example you gave now focuses your comments and the thrust of your arguments upon, Ethics and what defines Professionalism.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Well that is a different kettle of kippers and one which intersects with the market place and the economy.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >But with regard to the market place and the economy I respect your right to take your car to the repairer who has an ethic that coincides with your requirements, just as I expect you to respect my right to maybe choose to take my car to my mate next door and pay him with a case of beer. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >***</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I do trust that you can understand that when one reads these words: </p>

<p > </p>

<p >“<em>and without that experience you<strong> truly do have no business</strong> putting someone else's important day at risk to your inexperience and lack of knowledge”</em></p>

<p ><em> </em></p>

<p >that is very easy to interpret those words as specifically meaning, that you were telling the OP he had no business putting his offer out there at all . . . ??? </p>

<p > <br>

WW </p>

[serge_kakorin]

<p>Looks like $500 Craigslist photographer thing is becoming new RAW vs. JPEG or digital vs. film. Fun.</p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong><em>"I find most of the objections to professionals encouraging him to get more experience . . ."</em></strong></p>

<p>For clarity: I have no objections to suggesting Tony get experience or seek a Mentor.</p>

<p>My post and subsequent comments, relate only to the question as it was posted - seeking comment upon a particular Marketing Approach.</p>

<p>Tony needs to evaluate what, if any, effect his degree of experience and skill level will have upon his future business - just as the Client needs to evaluate if the skill level and expertise are suitable to satisfy their needs.</p>

<p>The best both parties can do is to be frank and honest such that the evaluations on both sides are as straightforward as possible.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>The Photographer simply by virtue of the fact that he (or she) hangs a shingle touting “I am A Wedding Photographer" does not intrinsically mean the Photographer owes any particular standard of quality or service to the Client.</p>

<p>The fact that we might argue that they should have a minimum standard is another debate - but in the real world, today this is not so - anyone can hang a shingle - and I support their right so to do.</p>

<p>What I cannot understand is the necessity (as is seems displayed in some posts here) that all responsibly of seeking out a “best fit” Photographer. be abdicated by the Client – that is what THEIR JOB is - - - it's up to Client to find what they want and to buy what suits them.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>My comments to Tony apropos a strategy of implementation of the plan he outlined for getting his business started were sincere. It is my honest opinion as to the very best way to implement the plan he has and for it not to later tie him down in a low end market.</p>

<p>BUT putting my business hard-hat on: I would have just have loved all my competition to be offering free Weddings with a Disclaimer and Commentary like what I read above – if we had that we would have made 20 times the money in half the time.<br /><br />WW</p>

<p>PS: Lee I don't think your comments indicate you are jerk, but part of the tag to your last comment could be interpreted as you wallowing a bit.</p>

[William Michael]

<p><em><strong>"Looks like $500 Craigslist photographer thing is becoming new RAW vs. JPEG or digital vs. film. Fun."</strong></em></p>

<p>:) Love your work, Serge.</p>

[john_c16]

<p>Free = No value. If you don't place any value on your services, your customers have no basis for the value they put on it. It is very difficult for most people to take free services seriously. You can still offer your services at no charge, but it's a good idea to let them know how much it would be worth if they were paying for it. Also, your disclaimer is definitely not confidence inspiring. Regardless of how much experience you have or whether or not you shoot full time, you can still call yourself a professional. After reading it over a couple times it sounds like you're asking people to foot the bill for your rentals so you can practice. There is definitely no value in that without guaranteed quality. By charging some sort of fee, your customer can expect a certain standard of quality; by not charging a fee, there is no expectation of quality and your customer just paid for your rentals and got photos that they can't use (not to say that you can't produce good photos--just a scenario). Your fee should include equipment rentals but you don't have to divulge how much that portion is. If you still offer your services at no charge, then it needs to be at no charge--not "free services but I need to be paid for rental reimbursement". </p>

[tony_defilippo1]

<p>jeesh... the response has officially tripped my ability to process everything in this thread now... on one hand I'm exhausted, and on the other I'm thrilled with all the feedback (positive and negative)</p>

<p>Based on alot of your great comments my plan for now is going to be tailor the ad/pitch, shorten it up, simplify and market directly first to those I know and live by... get more feedback, hopefully get some interest and move on from there. Along the way I'll definitly keep learning and actively improving my skills and I'll keep my eyes out for opportunities to find a mentor/second shooter situation.</p>

<p>The next time I'm feeling like I'm short on feedback, or getting to full of myself I will come back and post on what I've done.... :) Thanks for all the encouragement and errr, 'tough' love! </p>

<p>Tony</p>

[alaskapix]

<p>Model Mayhem +</p>

<p>Another plug for them... caveat; in order to establish an account you'll need some people shots. So, if for some odd reason you do not have any portraits, you'll need to get your friends/family to 'model' for you.<br>

Great thing about this resource; the opportunity to trade services. A model new to the field needs a portfolio, a photographer new to the field needs a portfolio - trade. The model gets some pictures, the photographer gets some pictures. Win win.<br>

I like Lee Richards' strategy for building a wedding portfolio/photography skills... low threat; great chance to setup; stage and work technique and lighting.</p>

<p>Rob</p>

[serge_kakorin]

<p>To William W: Thanks for the complement.</p>

[philipward]

<p>Tony to get back to your original posting.You wish to get your feet wet and gain some experience.A good way to access this is to join the local Professional Wedding Photographers Associatian or similar,they welcome begginers and its a great way to make contacts.This is what I did when I started out,it was invalualable.Most of them offer courses related to wedding photography and its a great way to build portfolio samples.From this I met and assisted several times one of the top wedding shooters in Ontario.Sure I was just schleping his gear( the guy was a equipment hog, a whole studio set up, plus),but I listened and learned and asked lots of questions.Find the photog that suits your style ,are you a gearhead or a minimalist?.There are lessons to be learned from both styles. Just a word of warning when dealing with B&G shopping for the low end $ shooter.They <strong><em>generally </em></strong>place a low value on good work.So though you may shoot that $500 wedding like it was $5000,do not expect to have your ego strocked with great feedback or referralls.This can be discouraging in the beginning but remember its all about gaining experience and building your portfolio.Good luck.</p>

[john_jennings2]

<p>If you are young and in college, there will be young couples who are flat broke and desperate for ANY photographer. Explain your limitations and learn on them. Just make sure you get them SOMETHING in the way of images.<br />That said, human psychology is weird. The more people pay for something, the more they value it. You are dealing with people who just paid at least $5,000 for a hunk of rock with an industrial use value of five bucks.<br />Jack up your fees and make them happy.</p>

<p> </p>

[steve_wagner1]

<p>Shoot a wedding for free, for $100, for a million bucks - makes no difference. As long as you represent yourself accurately, you deliver what the client wants and expects, and both of you agree on clear terms beforehand, no one on this forum has any place telling you what to do or judging your approach, your disclaimer, or anything else.</p>

<p>John C said "free= no value" - sorry, but this is nonsense and pretty offense to the thousands of professional photographers who have done non-profit work for causes they believe in.</p>

[j_traveller]

<p>Regarding Lee's comment 'being poor means you have to accept someone who is clueless', who said the OP was clueless? Just because it's his first wedding and he wants to do it for free, how do u know how much training he's had? So what if he's an advanced amateur and wants to make extra 200 bucks. He's not clueless. I don't remember ever reading a description for photographer prerequistes to practice photography, do they take a licensing exam like the MCAT for doctors? Do they need to complete a residency program?<br>

so if they pay $500 then they should still get $5000 worth of quality? Then if I paid 15,000 for my car because I'm poor the car manufacturer should throw in all the features of a BMW? Of if I pay $300 dollars a month for rent I should have the same services and amenities of someone who pays $5000 per month in rent. Keep dreaming.</p>

[ed_lemko]

<blockquote>

<p>

<p ><a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=937861">John Henneberger</a> <a href="http://www.photo.net/member-status-icons"><img title="Frequent poster" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/2rolls.gif" alt="" /></a>, Mar 02, 2010; 08:01 p.m.</p>

 

<p><em>the OP is insisting on working for free, and in spite of the fact that many who feed their families or their BMW gas tanks with the money they earn.</em><br>

There's no evidence that anything is being done in spite of other photographers nor are they entitled to anything.</p>

 

</p>

</blockquote>

<p>In spite of the fact that many here earn a living and seemingly a majority were urging the OP not to pursue this angle, I am offering some more ideas that support the original poster. I have no idea what you're talking about, you're commenting on perhaps the most unimportant part of my post. In any event, t's been quite an interesting dialog...</p>

 

[john_c16]

<p>RE: Brett Cole -<br>

<br> <br>

Charitable work is vastly different than free work for consumers. Typically, at least when I've done charitable work, they understand the value of what they are getting. If not, I let them know what it would regularly cost if they were to hire me. Your everyday consumer, on the other hand, is usually trying to get the best deal possible. Also, most consumers do not expect quality when something is free. They usually assume whatever they are getting for free is cheap, or low quality or disposable at some point. I try to educate my customers to show them that there is value in good photography and that it is not just a commodity regardless of the price.<br>

I very much respect other photographers who are able to provide their services to a charitable organization or cause at no charge. We just can't devalue the amazing ability that we, along with our equipment, have to document and record various occasions, events, nature, etc. If we continue to do this, then the people who make a living by photography have a harder and harder time doing that.</p>

 

[john_c16]

<p>argh...time ran out to edit my post. </p>

<p>To the OP - from your last post, it sounds like you have a good plan now. Try it and revise it. I guarantee you'll go through several revisions before you find something that works really well for you. Personally, I've tried the shoot & burn, but it just doesn't work for me. So I moved on to something else. I've tried the packages and they worked alright for me, but it's time to go a different direction. Eventually, you'll settle on the best marketing and business plan for YOU. I didn't mean to sound like I was berating you for your plan. You really can do whatever you want - I just gave you my opinion.</p>

[William Michael]

<p ><strong ><em >"</em></strong><strong ><em >Your everyday consumer, on the other hand, is usually trying to get the best deal possible. Also, most consumers do not expect quality when something is free. They usually assume whatever they are getting for free is cheap, or low quality or disposable at some point. I try to educate my customers to show them that there is value in good photography and that it is not just a commodity regardless of the price. We just can't devalue the amazing ability that we, along with our equipment, have to document and record various occasions, events, nature, etc. If we continue to do this, then the people who make a living by photography have a harder and harder time doing that."</em></strong></p>

<p > </p>

<p >I understand your sentiment. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >I also understand you previous comments. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >When I do Pro Bono I send an invoice for full costs and stamp “Gratis - Account Paid in Full” or similar. (And there are other reasons for doing that, also)</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I think addressing devaluation and under appreciation is a good cause – but I think the effort is substantially wasted in addressing it in the manner you outline, for the purposes of addressing the Original Post.</p>

<p > </p>

<p ><strong >Firstly as a general comment:</strong></p>

<p > </p>

<p >The horse has bolted and many, many media outlets are on to the fact that they can give Mr or Ms Camera phone five seconds of fame if they file their images – the internet is rife with images and there will be exponentially increasing numbers of people seeking the glory of “publication”</p>

<p > </p>

<p ><strong >On the topic of thread and this situation specifically:</strong></p>

<p > </p>

<p >I agree that most (many) consumers are wanting to get the “best deal”. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >BUT let’s speak frankly, most people who seek to have their Wedding Photography done for nothing are not folk who could afford $1500 for a Photographer and are looking for a $1500 discount – but rather it is likely that they are folk who cannot afford $500 for the Photographer, because that is Food Money.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >These Clients are neither dim, nor without feeling.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >So let’s consider this: we essentially have a potential B&G with scant funds. They do not want “educating” in the worth of the zero dollar Wedding Photography Deal they are being offered.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I think the “value” of the Photography (and the worth of Photographers generally) would be enhanced more, if in this scenario, the approach were personal, open and as quid pro quo with an already know party.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >The (understood) quid pro quo angle being: “you are giving me something of value – you trust me to get good Photos of your Wedding” and I am giving you something of value “Those Photos”</p>

<p > </p>

<p >It would be far too easy for “education of customers” in this situation to be seen as “lecture” at best, or at worst, a comment upon the B&G financial situation . . . or that they should be ever beholden to the “mighty Professional Photographer”.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >These comments all go to expanding the rationale of my first post. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >That rationale was severely abbreviated. – purposely so. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >I expand on this particular point, because it is quite important. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >I have done quite a few jobs for folk of scant means, not one has required any “customer education”. </p>

<p > </p>

<p ><em >Wedding Photography (especially) is often more about Reading and subsequently, Interacting with those People, <strong >such that they are at complete ease with you around</strong></em><strong >:</strong> rather than knowing when not to use F/2.8 at 1/320s and the pounding the value of a 1Series camera. . .<br /><br /></p>

<p >WW </p>

[john_c16]

<p>Thank you William for expanding on my previous posts. You said some things that I probably would have to wait years to figure out (I'm 26). </p>

<p><strong>"most people who seek to have their Wedding Photography done for nothing are not folk who could afford $1500 for a Photographer and are looking for a $1500 discount – but rather it is likely that they are folk who cannot afford $500 for the Photographer, because that is Food Money."</strong></p>

<p>Yes, that is exactly where the difference lies. These are the people who do (more often than not) understand what they are getting. I've always had a hard spot for the people who are looking for the $1500 discount. </p>

<p><strong>"When I do Pro Bono I send an invoice for full costs and stamp “Gratis - Account Paid in Full” or similar. (And there are other reasons for doing that, also)" </strong>-- Fantastic idea!</p>

<p><strong>I have done quite a few jobs for folk of scant means, not one has required any “customer education”.</strong><br>

A person with shallow pockets seems to understand the value of things they treasure better than a person with deep pockets but with the tops sewn shut.</p>