To be aggressive at responding client's emails or not?

tomislav_kovacicek · February 18, 2010

Example:

2 days ago I got new clent enquiry by email and the client looked like she knew why she picked me. In her mail there was roughly described wedding plan of her big day and question if I were available for her day. Also there was a sentence: In case ur'e available, I'd like to meet and discuss the details..bla, bla..

So I didn't send her my price list or offerings because she never asked for it, just the info that I'm available for her day.

Today she writes off that she had found some other photographer!

Question 1:

Was I supposed to send her my offer for her wedding?

Question 2:

Do you usually take aggressive approach or take it slow?

Thx

daverhaas · February 18, 2010

At least she responded that she found another photographer!

Email is probably the most used and least effect marketing tool there is for photographers.

She's getting emails from at least 50 other photographers, so she's going to base her decision on who provides the most information the fastest and who can meet with her the fastest. (Did I mention speed counts?)

She's not going to wait on you to come to the meeting with prices and samples. She wants / needs that in your e-mail back to her. My guess is that she sent the same email to 20 or 30 different photographers plus probably got another 20-50 from leads sites.

Bottom line - be fast, complete and personalize your response.

Dave

davebell · February 18, 2010

It's not a case of being aggressive, which really won't go down well, but being energetic, enthusiastic and proactive. If all you told her is that you are available that day, then you probably fell short in your response.

melissa_sievers · February 18, 2010

This is something that I've been thinking about this week too.

I do have an ad on Craigslist and get some inquiries from that. I try to be as prompt as I can with my response and detailed pricing. However, they often respond that they find someone cheaper. :-( I'm already on the low end. Not quite the $500 wedding. But, I'm essentially donating my personal time at the moment building the portfolio.

Last Friday I got an email checking on pricing and if I'm available for a wedding this coming April. I sent a detailed message with pricing and attached my contract. No response at all. I emailed on Tuesday to follow up and said that I'd be available to meet her in person if she liked. No response. I figure that she was just looking for the cheapest available. I'm hoping that she just hasn't gotten around to getting back to me this week.

I like to think that I'm enthusiastic. Planning a wedding is a lot of fun, I always try to offer congrats and suggest that they enjoy the process. I don't want to come off with an air of, "OOOH OOOH!!! PICK ME PICK ME!!!" At the same time, it's important to convey that I truly want to celebrate with them.

My husband says, "You should call them!!!" I didn't have her number and an email is much easier to share details of a package instead of reading it to them on the phone while they work to jot everything down. I shared my number with her if she needed to call.

I have ads in a local paper to try to use an alternate method beyond Craigslist.

jean_yves_mead · February 18, 2010

E-mail is also far easier to ignore, misinterpret, or lose to an errant spam filter. Something to bear in mind when you're trying to build up your client base.

g.e._masana · February 18, 2010

Chances are, if you responded with prices, all she would've done is compare prices without any consideration as to any other factors whatsoever such as skill, experience, quality, execution, service. It's as if they're purchasing photography by the pound. That she responded by saying she's already booked a photographer could very well just be her way of blowing you off because she has someone else in mind. Odds are slim that within 48 hours of inquiring of photographers, such as yourself, she went to making an appointment, keeping that appointment and booking the photographer. True, there's this "I-Want-It-Now" entitlement mind-set out there and many vendors are catering to that, thus enabling that behavior. But it's nothing new, back in the day before emails, same thing happened with phone inquiries. I used to drop everything to answer the phone and schedule appointments to accommodate their a.s.a.p. must-have-it-now requests, and the lesson I learned was: these folks will run you ragged and make your life subject to their whims. I found it's no way to live nor work. yeah, they're in a big hurry to make appointments, they want to book now they say, but then when they see you it becomes "well I have to think it over - I have to discuss this with my in-laws - I have six more photographers I'm seeing - I'm leaving for a vacation next week and will decide in a month after I come back" and other such stalls. Sound familiar to anyone? Fundamentally, to be on demand to email back and call back within moments infers on a gut level that one is very available, with nothing else keeping them busy, and anyone behaving as if you are so available means they have little regard for you, meaning that they see you as just a commodity. If 50 photographers are indeed jumping over each other like salmon striving to mate or die to be the first to respond, then there's no foundation for a bride to respect them and if she's of the mind-set that these professionals ought to be so subject to her whims, then on the wedding day and afterwards one should not expect that she'll abide by your policies or directions, as you'll continue to be subjected to her whims. Now, same bride wouldn't dare think to have several doctors rush to return her call, nor attorneys, nor accountants. She's too busy for a short phone call? GEICO would go out of business. They don't stop to eat something in their busy day that they can't also make a call? Really? They don't take bathroom breaks or have work breaks or go out for a smoke or have a lunch break or take a moment to text their fiance or BFF? They take moments to compose emails, they take some moments to peruse web sites, they can't take a moment to call right before work or right after work or sneak away for five minutes? Don't they gab some with workmates chewing the breeze during the day and have time for that? They don't call their doctors and dentists and nail salons for appointments? What happens if the emergency room calls to tell them their mother had a heart attack, they can't take the call because they're so busy? They're looking for someone to perform a service that results in a lifetime long product with no do-overs but they can't invest just a few moments to call the person they may hand that responsibility over to?

I'm saying it's a certain market demographic that sees photographers as just a 'thing" to have at their wedding, a commodity, and give more priority to other "things". Bet there are others they do call. I think of how the bride emails me, I ask her to call me, she may tell me she's awfully busy. But - the right bride then finds the time to call me. She may ask if she can call me that evening, after work, or that weekend. She'll look to set up a phone time. The other type of bride just won't. Chances are if they buck and stall and run circles with email after email, IOW waste time, these are not the best prospects. I think one has to get away from the idea that all inquiries need to turn into appointments, and when you see behavior such as you described, you've effectively used email to weed out the low interest leads that would've probably gone nowhere but spin your wheels. Now, of course someone will post about the exceptions. But I can tell you that the exceptions make it through because just as you can lead a bride to water but can't make it drink, the right bride will drink even if you don't lead it to. IOW, they help you when they're sufficiently interested and when they really want something, you basically can't stop them. One more idea is: it's not that you didn't make an offer, but it may be that your reply didn't interest her sufficiently to get back to you, if indeed she was that interested to begin with. Yes, brides will contact you even if they're not all that interested: they do reconnaissance work (the fact that she emailed you an extensive essay about her wedding plans suggests to me it was a form letter rather than retyping everything every time she wants to email a photographer) so she was probably just emailing everyone listed everywhere until someone responded and then she shut herself off. Just looking for a thing. That doesn't mean she'll book that person, though. Try her again in a couple of weeks. That is, if you really want a customer who doesn't care about the difference between you and Adam.

kevin_delson · February 18, 2010

This is not so much a wedding type question; it is a basic business question and deals with handling customers properly.

There is not enough room here to teach the intricacies of "Getting and maintaining clients."

Here are some essentials that hopefully will help you in the future. None of the following information deals with wedding clients; it deals with human psychology and good business sense in handling phone calls or email inquiries.

1) Never give customers all the info.

What?..That makes no sense..or does it?

Giving people all the information will have a sure result. They will move on to the next person on their list until they find what they REALLY want. The reason many of us never know what (they) really want is because we fail to investigate their needs. It's not about being aggressive, it's about controlling the sale or getting the booking in your case. It's about uncovering their (objection)..or "why don't you want to hire me?"

Heres a little role play dialog..maybe it will help you see this better.

Cust: "Hello, are you available March 10th?

Photog: "Yes I am"

Cust: "How much are your packages?"

Photog: " My base package starts at $950"

The above response is a sure why to lose more business than gain it.

The better response:

"I'm not sure until I check my schedule. What is your number so I can get back to you?

You just accomplished three things with that response.

1) You didn't commit.

2) You gave the impression you are a busy photographer.

3) You have a contact phone number for followup.

To continue....

"Before I let you go, may I ask you a few questions about your big day?"

This is called (Permissive selling) Very effective.

This is now the investigation phase of securing a new customer/client.

The questions you now ask show YOU are interested in THEM.

Now YOU are in control because YOU are asking the questions.

Questions such as...

1) "How many people in the weding party?"

2) "Will parents from both sides be attending?"

Follow-on question to # 2.

3) "Oh really? Are they travelling far to attend your wedding? Oh wow..I was vacationing in Texas just last year. Maybe your mom & dad could give me some vacation tips when we have time between the ceremony and reception."

See a pattern here?

#3 now begins the rapport phase AND did you notice the (assumptive close)?

You go from control questions which help you get a leg up in knowing what you have to do to investigative questions to building rapport.

I wonder how many people do this?..I know..Not many.

There is a very old adage in business or closing the deal "Business is not lost over a few dollars, it is lost over a few words."

I no longer shoot weddings, but I chose to answer your question as it does not really deal with wedding photography. Wedding photography is a people business first, photography second.

I promise you; if you concentrate on getting the booking thru the strategic use of words, you will book more weddings.

How do you do that?

I suggest a book or two on "Closing the sale" (Zig Ziglar) and/or a old book written by Joe Gerard called "World's Greatest Salesman"

It is not trickery nor deceipt to be a good sales person. It is a must have skill if you wish to be successful in any business, weddings or selling widgets.

kevin_delson · February 18, 2010

I didn't have her number

</blockquote>

This is critical. You should at all cost try to get a call back number.

If the client is serious, they will give you their number if you know HOW to ask for it.

"well I have to think it over - I have to discuss this with my in-laws

</blockquote>

This is where we all need to learn "How to overcome objections."

Thinking it over is a stall, a dodge. There is a reason they need to "Think it over"..Find out!

g.e._masana · February 18, 2010

>> This is where we all need to learn "How to overcome objections." Thinking it over is a stall, a dodge. There is a reason they need to "Think it over"..Find out!>> Good post, sir! My "have to talk it over with the in-laws" is indeed a "stall" not an objection. But I've thrown out a good part of the Zig Ziglars, Joe Girards and Jeff Gitomers, because their wisdom is about uncovering reasons for stalls, and I say, a stall is merely an outward device that they find makes easier to express their inner decision, ALREADY made, not to book the photographer. This is why, IMO, all the sales expert gurus' who advocate exploring for the reason for the stall succeeds only in positioning yourself for sales failure and continued frustration when the guru methods don't work any better then what was happening before, because they'll back up that excuse with another and yet another, rather than say the uncomfortable truth (such as, "your pictures suck" or "you have bad breath" or "you have overflowing nasal hairs" or "you're great but we're cheap"), and the more you try to uncover, the more they'll make up until they're caught in a lie ("but you told me earlier that the decision was up to you and no one else", for example) or call it quits and say they have to run. Joe Girard sold cars in the 1970s or so, was a top salesperson, did write a best seller, true, true, and some principles persist, yet since then, those *tactics* have worn thin. Just like there was a time when sticking your foot in the door actually worked but no longer does. Or telling someone they have a nice face and that you like them so you're gonna make 'em a great deal. We've had decades of it and we see it coming. It doesn't work anymore. Here's an example of what those guys advocate we do, applied to our industry: PROSPECT: "Well, I have to talk all this over with my mother-in-law" PHOTOGRAPHER: "That's fine! I'm sure you want her to make the best decision, right?" PROSPECT: "Absolutely". PHOTOGRAPHER: "In that case, she'd need all the facts, wouldn't she? Being an intelligent person, she'll probably come up with some questions of her own, won't she?" PROSPECT: "No doubt". PHOTOGRAPHER: "Well then, I should be there to provide the correct answers for her, shouldn't I? When's the best time for all of us to meet?" PROSPECT: "I don't know. She's away. On a cruise". PHOTOGRAPHER: "Okay. When will she be back?" PROSPECT: "You know, I'm not exactly sure. And I think she's leaving to visit her sister in California after she comes back. Isn't that right, honey? I don't know how long she's going to be away for". PHOTOGRAPHER: "How about if I check in with you in a couple of weeks?" PROSPECT: "Sure!" [planning on not answering the phone when the Photographer calls anyway] Uncovering what? It goes nowhere. But if we deal with it as if they're actually telling us "No", as in they've made the decision silently, mentally - then we know where we stand and go from there. I'm not going to give away the gold here, but suffice it to say you need to determine, not an underlying reason for the stall, but if they're being sincere about their stall or not. It's just the way it is because of human nature. It is psychology.

neilambrose · February 18, 2010

G.E. Masana makes a good point.

I don't disagree with any of the general recommendations about fact finding and building a relationship. That's at the heart of every successful service, and anyone who wants to book clients needs to build and maintain rapport right from the start, and it all starts with caring about what the client needs, and not what you're offering.

But 'sales tactics' are best applied carefully, as most of them depend on the (un)sophistication of the audience. If your prospective client base is educated, intelligent and assertive, then most sales methods will fall flat. They are very transparent, easily avoided, and can often be cause for a prospect to reject you out of hand simply from a feeling of irritation.

Being respectful, attentive, informative and professional are always important ingredients in a sales process. But trying to push for a close, or using linguistic techniques to seed an idea of a stronger commitment than actually exists, are techniques that only work on certain types of people. If you use those techniques, you need to be absolutely certain that your prospect is one of those people — otherwise you've killed the relationship right there.

kevin_delson · February 18, 2010

yet since then, those *tactics* have worn thin

</blockquote>

(Some) tactics have worn thin; yet people have not changed in hundreds of years.

I would never advocate the machine gun approach to selling anyone anything; those in the know understand that does not work.

a stall is merely an outward device that they find makes easier to express their inner decision

</blockquote>

Somewhat true, yet a professional knows the difference between a (reflex) objection, sometimes a stall..and a real objection.

when the guru methods don't work any better then what was happening before,

</blockquote>

Before what?

But if we deal with it as if they're actually telling us "No",

</blockquote>

Many people really do not mean no. Most humans are wishy washy.

They are not saying no, they are saying "You have not given me enough of or the right information I need to say yes.

I'm not going to give away the gold either. ;)

My essential point I hoped to get across, is I see many people, not just photographers, in a service & sales industry who don't know how to handle objections or sell; many don't even try..they just take "no" for an answer.

A little persistence, a little Q&A, some tactful timely questions will land more jobs than just "OK, I guess they found someone else."

Girard, Ziglar, Verde, Cardone and the like don't have all the answers, but we need to take what they (DO) have like eating chicken..."Enjoy the meat and spit out the bones."

kevin_delson · February 18, 2010

If your prospective client base is educated, intelligent and assertive, then most sales methods will fall flat.

</blockquote>

I suppose we could argue this for a looong time, but I won't as this is beginning to fall off topic.

Neil, agreed, but only to a point.

Intelligent educated people are no less immune to persuasion than anyone else..what they are is better informed than many; so as a sales person, I had be equally or more informed.

Essentially, if my clients like, trust and respect me, I will 8/10 times get the job.

I live for my clients best interests. I do not try to "get something" from them.

Another old adage I try to live by has worked well for me...

"When I succeed at delivering what my clients want; I will get what I want."

g.e._masana · February 18, 2010

I wrote: a stall is merely an outward device that they find makes easier to express their inner decision You responded: Somewhat true, yet a professional knows the difference between a (reflex) objection, sometimes a stall..and a real objection. I'm saying that I have redefined what up to now professionals have been told is an objection and what is a stall. I wrote: when the guru methods don't work any better then what was happening before, You wrote: Before what? Meaning, the results they were getting prior to using the methods taught to them by the sales gurus. I wrote: But if we deal with it as if they're actually telling us "No", You wrote:Many people really do not mean no. Most humans are wishy washy. They are not saying no, they are saying "You have not given me enough of or the right information I need to say yes. I'm saying that rather than see their stall as meaning "I need more information", as the sales gurus teach, which is what you're also indicating, I choose to see their stall as meaning "No". Understand that I have knowingly changed what the gurus teach. I have changed the assumption. Rather than assuming the person, by stalling, is signifying that they need more information to say 'yes', I am assuming that by stalling, the person is saying 'no' and further, that they have made a decision that results in their saying 'no'. They just don't verbalize the word 'no' but give you an excuse to cover it. I understand this is not the standard sales bible stuff, so you need not correct me into what the going standard sales knowledge is :) Let me illustrate my point some more: A stall is not an objection. I think we all agree on that. An objection is some concern that blocks the prospect from doing business, such as, "I'm not sure you can handle an order of this size". But a stall is more of an outright attempt to block the sale, such as. "I have to think it over" The Ziglars of the world tell us that we have to uncover the reason the person is stalling. They'll tell us that it has to do with the person fearing they may be making a bad decision. "What if I'm overpaying?" "What if there's something better out there?" "What if I'm wrong?" I'm telling you it's not that. I'm saying a stall is the manifestation of a decision they already made; a decision not to do business with you. And you're probably not going to uncover the real reason, though you may be told secondary reasons and/or given excuses. They made that decision somewhere in the process after you said "hello" and before they told you they had to think it over. They're not going to usually tell you the real reason because it will make them uncomfortable to do so. For example: If you're more then they thought they'd spend and they don't want to spend the money, they don't want to come off as cheap or poor so they may not admit to it. It's far easier to say "we have to think it over". If you have bad breath and a bunch of nasal hairs sticking out of your nose with a little drip on it, they're not going to tell you it's because your appearance disgusted them, they're sure not going to tell you that they're disgusted by your appearance and don't want you at the wedding. It's easier to say "I have to talk it over with mom". If they think your photos are not of the best quality, they won't wish to hurt your feelings, so its easier to say "I'll get back to you". I'm saying if you take their stall as meaning "No", you don't go spinning your wheels trying to uncover the uncoverable from someone who's already decided against you. You see, someone who does want to do business with you isn't going to say "I have to talk it over with my mother-in-law" or "I have to think it over". They're going to say "Great! Well, what do you think, hun? I'm good! Okay! What do we do next?" I'm saying if they say anything like "I have to think it over", assume you've lost the sale. >> I see many people, not just photographers, in a service & sales industry who don't know how to handle objections or sell; many don't even try..they just take "no" for an answer. >> Right. But I'm not necessarily saying take no for an answer. I'm saying when you understand the answer to be "no", when you assume you've lost the sale, then instead of wasting your time going with the by-the-book popular sales strategies that won't uncover anything real from a person who's now decided against you, there's another tact. I just don't wish to give those tacts away because it took me lots of years and understanding human psychology and implementing it to get there. In a way, it's analogous to this: If I find myself on a sinking ship, in the water, holding onto a piece of debris and assume that I'm dead meat, what would I have to do to give myself the chance to make it out of there alive?

g.e._masana · February 19, 2010

Just an edit to my last paragraph: when people take a stall (take "no") for an answer, it's exactly because they don't take it as a "no" but see it as the sale still being alive, so they go along with it.

michelle_sallay · February 19, 2010

For me, I want my client to be 100% confident in hireing ME and not another photographer. I had a meeting with a bride who wanted selective color with some of her images and I told her I didn't do that. Then she didn't hire me. Honestly, I was relieved.

I agree with sounding excited and enthusiastic about your prospective brides coming plans, but I feel like the same way meeting with brides as I did on a first date. I want to be MYSELF, and if you like what you see then lets move forward!

I think being genuine is always the best sales pitch.

juanita_ramirez · February 19, 2010

G.E.'s style is absolutely different than mine. I'm sure he/she is nice and books lots of weddings. Here is what I have done that has booked a ton of weddings for me this year. I'm fairly new, but my family has to live on my photo income so I am priced aggressively, but at a price-point that allows me to still make a comfortable living after taxes, costs, and other stuff. For reference, my photos are on par with the best wedding photographers in my (relatively small) market, but I'm still building a brand and so I have to price somewhat competitively. I increase incrementally so as not to kill my referral business.

1. I post prices online. I don't care if people buy my photos by the pound. I'm a fantastic value and I'm not shy about it. I charge about half (for a comparable package) of what the highest paid wedding photographers in my market charge, and about 4-8 times what the CL photographers charge. Everything you need to know is on my price page. If they don't want to call me and get a sales pitch, they don't have to.

2. I respond to emails within 4 hours if possible. Brides from this generation want instant gratification. I want her to remember which site she visited and who she emailed. I will usually make a telephone call the following evening to follow up and ask if they have any further questions. If they answer the phone and talk to me, it helps to gauge their interest.

3. I try to respond to any new emails or phone correspondence ASAP. I want my bride to know that I will be answering the phone and emails when she actually becomes my client. How can I trust a wedding photographer to answer the phone on my wedding day (when I have some emergency) if she won't answer it (or return calls in a reasonable amount of time.) I recognize that sometimes I can't get back to a bride because I'm on a shoot, but I make it a priority to contact them ASAP and explain why I hadn't contacted them earlier.

People have the information before they meet me. Some choose not to email because they already know everything (except date availability) and that's fine. In fact, I will guage interest by my phone calls and emails, and I won't even meet with lukewarm brides unless they tell me that they have already met with other photographers and are ready to make a decision.

I have as much business as I can handle doing this, and I'm using price increases as a spigot to control the flow of new inquiries. That said, I'm not shy about the fact that as far as wedding 'togs go, I'm very very good. University photo education plus years shooting documentary overseas means that I can get the technical side without a lot of difficulty. The only thing holding me back is that my time solely doing weddings is a couple years shorter than others in the market.

g.e._masana · February 20, 2010

Juanita, sounds like you're booking people based on charging half as much as others, as you say, which is why posting your prices online doesn't work against you, but rather, works because it attracts the price shoppers.

My "style" is different than yours, as you note, because I don't compete based on price. I charge way more than many, but I create a product that is recognized as one of the finest around. A price-shopper type of bride would never appreciate what I do enough to pay for it, as one put it "I can only dream" [about booking me] but my target market is seeking people like me. So my selling involves other factors, price being the least of it.

If the lowest price attracted lots of business, then the lowest priced photographer would get all the work. But they don't, and in fact, many get into financial debacles because of their thin profit margins and go out of business. We're not Walmart, we're individual laborers. Since we have to pay for our life expenses, business expenses, vacations, health insurance, equipment and business purchases, taxes, plus fund our retirement - plus have a business profit left so we can grow, the low price model, in the long term, doesn't work for us. One could just get a 9-5 job and make the same money and not have all the concerns involved with running a business.

Well, when you get into a category where it's not about low price, you don't have the low price factor working for you. Like a mentor once told me, "if you have a low price, you just show the couple your stuff and basically say: you want it or not? But you'd better be doing 1,000 weddings a year."

Eventually your price increases will bring you into a new demographic. Your previous customers will refer people to you, but those referrals will balk at paying the higher prices. How will you appeal then to the new demographic to obtain new customers and stay in business?

juanita_ramirez · February 20, 2010

I've responded privately to GE because I believe s/he misrepresented my words. I'll just hit the major points. 1. You're just starting out. You can't charge 5000-10000 for a wedding today. You'll get a lecture from the established photographers about how "you'll kill your referral business if you charge less" but to be frank this is just a way for them to make sure that you NEVER get ANY weddings. No one wants to pay 5000 for someone who has 2 brides in their portfolio. I don't care if you're the best photographer alive, if you are doing your first gig (or first 40 gigs) as a primary shooter, you can't expect to charge the same price as people who are just as talented but have more reputation. You can't. You'll be finished before you every get started.

2. I'm not cheap. GE insinuated (but did not directly say) that I was like Wal Mart. This is totally inaccurate. If the highest paid (and I mean highest paid) very best photographers in my market charge 8000, I charge 4000 for a comparable package. I'm affordable (and a good value), but I'm most certainly not cheap.

3. I'm not going to bag on GE's mentor, because that would be rude, but I don't need to do 1000 or even 50 weddings a year to make a lot more money than I can working 9-5. I increase my prices by about 20% every 6-8 months. It's never alienated client referrals, and it's brought in more people who see price as a proxy for value (a totally inaccurate notion in wedding photography IMHO) who call in cold. I'm not jumping 100% in price the second I book 2 weddings, that's stupid and counterproductive. At this rate, in three years I'll be the same price as the very most expensive photographers in my market. By that time, I'll have the portfolio (already adequate) and reputation (still building) to back up my prices.

4. Lastly. GE is an excellent photographer. I look at his/her work, and I can't say enough nice things. S/he looks like s/he as been in business a long time and is very established. It's easy to charge high prices, not post them, and pick up luxury weddings when you're very well established? There are some not-price-conscious brides out there, but they are fewer than you think. (How many "luxury" weddings happen in your market in a year?) As such, her/his system works fantastically for someone who is established. If you're not the equation is totally different.

Do what you want, OP. Just know I'm a new (but very good) photographer who makes good margins and can feed her family quite well after taxes/health insurance/etc. I'll be charging the same big prices when my reputation matches the prices.

savagesax · February 21, 2010

This happens all of the time. Instead of just answering her email ask what her number is so you can meet with her. You can even set up a day by telling her you are free on such date. You need to meet with the person as soon as possible, or they look elsewhere and book fast with someone else. Don't let this happen. You enhance your booking power by at least 90 percent once you meet with them.

g.e._masana · February 22, 2010

Juanita, it seems you took my post way too personally, but not only that, you appear to be twisting my post around to a negative spin. In so doing, you're also not really getting the right understanding of my points. >> You'll get a lecture from the established photographers about how "you'll kill your referral business if you charge less" but to be frank this is just a way for them to make sure that you NEVER get ANY >> So why do you think established photographers give that advice to people they're mentoring? You think they're lying to them? Or is it possibly because it's true that low price buyers will likely refer other low price buyers who will then probably not book at your higher rates? >>GE insinuated (but did not directly say) that I was like Wal Mart.>> That's one example of what I mean of putting a negative spin on my words. Go back and read that paragraph of mine and you see I'm talking about low price strategy and the "many" who use it, adding that "We [note the word "we"] cannot be Walmart, we're individual shooters", meaning that Walmart's business model of lower prices is profitable for Walmart but doesn't work for us individuals. Writing thast I "insinuated" something about you personally is highly dramatic language. But let me ask you: What do you have against Walmart anyhow that you would respond as if a comparison to them was such a terrible thing? They're a major corporation and a legendary company in U.S. Business history, a virtual rags to riches story. One example was all I wished to touch upon, I don't see the need to respond to all your spins. Wishing you the best of luck and one last piece of advice: in this business, it helps to have thicker skin.

juanita_ramirez · February 22, 2010

You don't need to respond to any more of my "spins." I'll just bring up a couple of points.

>>So why do you think established photographers give that advice to people they're mentoring? You think they're lying to them? Or is it possibly because it's true that low price buyers will likely refer other low price buyers who will then probably not book at your higher rates?>>

I understand your logic. I really do. I discussed several times--every time--that my price increases come incrementally . It's true, a referral from a 3-year-ago client is probably worthless. On the other hand, a referral from a recent client (which I'm more likely to get anyway) is not going to be affected by a 20% or so price increase.

I think that established photographers overlook the fact that they're, well, established. It's a little tougher to come up from the bottom. It's easy to say "you should charge $5000 minimum for a wedding--that's the market rate." No reasonable client will pay that for someone who (no matter how talented) doesn't have a strong reputation in the market. I am focusing on the starting photographer.

I don't dispute the basic logic, but lets not take it to extremes. I think that virtually any newcomer (and I mean newcomer with a solid portfolio and experience as a second shooter) has to charge something below the established professional rate. That's a business decision that has to be made with an understanding of how price increases might affect referral business.

>>What do you have against Walmart anyhow that you would respond as if a comparison to them was such a terrible thing?

Forgive me if I assumed that most New York photographers think that Wal Mart is the worst place in the world. That's likely just my flyover country perception at work, but I thought that you intended this as a hard insult.

I'd love to hear some perspective on how one should start out. What was your path like? Maybe you don't want to say, I know that you use your real name and have your business attached to this account. I can't imagine that you woke up one day, bought a camera, and started shooting luxury weddings.

g.e._masana · March 9, 2010

>> I'd love to hear some perspective on how one should start out.>> Though there are different paths to entry because it's a big wide world and people do whatever they want anyway, good, bad or indifferent, and sometimes it could even work out... rather than enter that way and hope one is among the lucky few who may succeed and have things fall into place, I think the best model is the same we see with designers, hair stylists, attorneys and others who first work for a firm, build a following and reputation and then, once well versed in the industry, feel the need to venture out on their own to determine their own path. Perhaps leaving to the dismay of their employers, but sometimes the birdies have to leave the nest. Their time learning the ropes helped them avoid years re-inventing the wheel; their time with the employer also helped build their reputation by association. When they set out, they're more likely to have name recognition, command more of a profitable professional fee, certainly have developed expertise and skills and not be cutting their teeth at their clients' expense.

juanita_ramirez · March 9, 2010

Thanks for the response.

I don't know that it really answered my question, but thank you. Even a professional who has reputation by association likely cannot charge the same amount as their mentor--at least not the first year out.

I hope that you're not asserting that I cut my teeth at the client's expense.

Lastly, I apologize for leading you to believe that my prices were particularly low. I looked over your pricing schedule and my prices are actually quite close to yours. On top of that, I live in Flyover country where cost of living is a lot cheaper. I guess the concept of a professional fee is relative to what you're used to charging.

To the OP (if he/she cares anymore) I do just fine using the methods I used above. You're free to follow Mr. Masana's advice if you like. He has more time in the game and still is able to get good business the way he does things, too.

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