shutter speed adjustment of a Canon FTb

[h_s1]

<p>I have a Canon FTb whose 1/1000 speeds appears to be quite a bit slow (it is slower than more than half, so a bit slower than than 1/500!).</p>

<p>I now have some experience in opening it up (only top and bottom, not the leatherette or the mirror box, yet) and cleaning and lubricating it. But I am not sure how to make the shutter speed adjustments. Does somebody know where it is in the camera?</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

[awahlster]

<p>If you have no experiance then it would be best to have someone else who does have the experiance to do it.<br>

First off you need a copy of the service manual<br>

Second you need a shutter speed tester</p>

 

[h_s1]

<p>Hi Mark.</p>

<p>I have some experience. Sufficient to properly disassemble the top, bottom, prism, focusing screen, the shutter speed dial, etc.</p>

<p>I have a manual which shows exploded diagrams of the camera.</p>

<p>I do have a tester which works reasonably accurately.</p>

<p>So, given this clearer context, do you know where it the shutter speed adjustment in the camera?</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

<p> </p>

[awahlster]

<p>No I have no idea When I need my cameras serviced I got to someone who has 38-39 years experiance working on Canon FD mount cameras. Maybe one of the other guys can help you.</p>

[h_s1]

<p>Okay.</p>

<p>I have narrowed it down to two possible places which are the following.<br>

First is the pair of brass gear screws on the left hand side bottom of the camera. These can be turned with a fork-tip screw driver. But they perhaps change the tensions in the curtain springs, but I am not definite about this. The second is the cam on the top right hand side of the camera but positioned just beneath the shutter speed selector dial (the cam, about 1 cm in diameter, and the top of the shutter curtain shafts on its left, make a triangle). I only need a bit of input from someone who has already done this for confirmation. The two scenarios are shown in the attached photo (the cam is pointed by the cyan arrow).</p>

<p>Now, I want to do this myself for the main reason that I would like to be able to do such maintenance stuff. I like to do this, it gives me pleasure. At the same time, I simply cannot afford a professional CLA done at present (and that too to a camera worth $20 or so). Furthermore, I am not in photo business and money on such stuff will not go from somebody else's pocket or somebody's expense account. Finally, the number of places which can do a CLA of such cameras is not really increasing as the years go by, they are on a clear decline, if I understand this right. Finally, I simply see no reason why one should not know such stuff while understanding the risks involved. Lastly, no one is born knowing this stuff, one has to start some place! I am an engineer, I simply see no reason why I should not try to gain such experience. To my mind a camera is not a magic box, it is just a machine.</p>

<p>Regards.</p>

<p> </p><div></div>

[awahlster]

<p>yes but I am trying to keep the machine out of the junk drawer. I think the reason your not gettig answers to your questions is very few people work on their own cameras. Since it is a highly specialized field. But Hey it's your camera you own it so it's yours to do with as you chose.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

[h_s1]

<p>he he ... and I am trying to make a nice one out of a junk one! Perspective, perspective.</p>

<p>Nice to know it is highly specialized field. I makes me feel much better realizing how much more I already know about it with so little input!</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

 

[alan_swartz]

<p>I'm all for freedom of thought and free communication of ideas, not to mention freedom to work on one's own old FTb. I don't recommend learning on a T90, nor tearing down one's EOS 5D. It's not only about perspective, but about proportion, too. And economy; there are not many people left in the world who will spend $75 to get a CLA on a $30 FTb, I suspect, as much as we like them around here. I've got another 25 years or so before I hit the nursing home. I'm afraid that the tech with 39 years experience is going to be out of the business before I stop shooting. A decade from now, we may be sending bodies to H S for service. "No sir, I don't work on that old Canon stuff any more. And those young techs don't know nothin' about mechanical cameras. All they know how to do is swap circuit boards."</p>

<p>Hewlett-Packard was once the premier US manufacturer of laboratory grade electronic test and measurement equipment, before they spun it off into Agilent Technologies and focused on computers. Their equipment from the 60s, 70s, and 80s includes stunningly detailed service manuals, just plain brilliant documents. Getting into the 80s, they stopped publishing component-level repair techniques and went to a board-swapping repair procedure. I've read that they did this because there were few technicians left in the field who could understand and execute the former procedures. If such a thing happened in that field, its day will likely come in photographic repair.</p>

<p>I admit that I myself have some skill in several areas that are specialized. I've never ever put a car in the shop for any repair. I do it all, no matter how major or high-tech. I am resuscitating and augmenting a sizeable pipe organ, another field where none but the professionals are considered to have any knowledge or skill. I have some electronics skill, some woodworking skill, perhaps some photographic skill. I can weld. And so on. My formal training and profession has no connection with any of this. I'm not bragging here (what does it matter if people a continent away know this stuff about me?), but stating this to point out that I learned all of this--solo, hands-on, like H S is doing. Obviously there was a day when I couldn't do any of it. The <em>learning experience</em> is what it's all about, just like learning photography. We've all ruined some film learning to make photographs, ruined a lot more before developing artistry and an eye and a vision. Is it certain that H S will ruin an FTb? I note that (s)he is proceeding with caution, learning in stages, developing an understanding, rather than gutting the camera first, then calling 9-1-1.</p>

<p>If I had tried a few things and found my abilities poor, I wouldn't tackle CLAs.</p>

<p>I also suspect that there is more than one reason there are no answers. Things are not usually that simple.</p>

<p>So here's half an answer, which is all my knowledge base can provide at present, for I too am learning in stages. The brass toothed adjusters with the locking pawls in the camera's base do adjust curtain tension. I'd have to do some review to point out which affects which curtain.</p>

<p>The master shaft cam appears to bear an adjustment in the slotted holes under the sealed screws, but I can't yet say what it accomplishes. I haven't yet studied the FTb service manual in that depth.</p>

 

[richard_cook2]

<p>Try asking your question on the Maintenance and Repair section of the Classic Camera Repair forum<br>

<a href="http://www.kyphoto.com/cgi-bin/forum/discus.cgi">http://www.kyphoto.com/cgi-bin/forum/discus.cgi</a><br>

They are more likely to be able to answer your question.</p>

[h_s1]

<p>Richard, I am already a member there. I found that forum when I wasn't satisfied with the information I was able to gain here few months ago.</p>

<p>People there have been extremely helpful. In fact, most of the direct conceptual and technical help I got is from there. Wonderful group.</p>

<p>There are a couple of others forums and web pages that I found to be extremely useful. I recall reading a disassembly and assembly of an earlier EOS camera on a pentax related web page. Go figure.</p>

<p> </p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>For 1/1000 second On a focal plane shutter one has the gap (width) and tension. With a speed graphic one has one giant curtain with fixed width slots. A 35mm slr has two curtains<br>

<br /> Get a baseline average measured speed for the 1/1000 setting; before messing with the tensions.<br>

Then add some to each curtain and measure the speeds again.<br>

With gunked up rollers one is fighting the gunk too.<br>

If only one curtain is messed with one will get a wedged varying speed across the frame; with a dual curtain camera.<br>

<br /> *MARK THE starting point before adusting; so you can go back!</p>

[bsharpe411]

<p>This is why medical students practice surgery on cadavers..nothing to lose and knowledge to gain. Of course, it helps to have an experienced surgeon there to explain what to do...or not do. It also reminds me of a TV commercial a saw recently with an average Joe sitting in his kitchen with a knife in one hand and a phone in the other. On the other end is a doctor trying to talk him through some DIY surgery. The apprehensive Joe asks, "Doc, maybe <strong>you </strong>should be doing this.</p>

<p>H S...I appreciate your thirst for knowledge of what makes things tick. I've been that way with mechanical things since I was a kid.</p>

<p>Mark...I appreciate your concern about seeing another classic heading for the landfill. I've had my FTb for over 35 years now and she has accompanied me half way around the world without ever failing to produce. I would never think of opening her up any more than operating on my own daughter. I've opened up other cameras that were already basically a cadaver...I learned a bit...but never brought the patient back to life.</p>

<p>H S...I wish I could help you but I also wish you the best in your attempt. Let us know what happens.</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>Bob; in camera repair one works on cadavers too! it just old dead cameras that one gets for free; or a token amount from ebay. </p>

[h_s1]

<p>Bob, I differ with the fundamental assumption you are making that taking a risk of opening a camera is same as opening up a human being. Risk versus reward situation is completely different in both cases. It is apples and oranges comparison. I od realize that there are situations where a camera may be extremely valuable to somebody for various reasons, but those are singular situations, not average ones.</p>

<p>But as to what happens with my camera, here is a brief history of this camera:<br>

1. It was destined to a landfill to being with. It has no following needle (the little circle that shows the aperture in the viewfinder). Its back door would not open. Mirror was locking up. Had sever shutter capping and bounce. Mirror was all sticky and dirsty, seals were falling apart, and focusing screen was a mess. Meter was way off, as was the red warning mark.<br>

2. So, I began my quest of saving this camera, obtained with around $20. Mind you, I had never before opened an FTb. Heck, I had hardly opened any camera before with so many problems ... see, it was almost dead.<br>

3. Fixed the film door jam. Works like new.<br>

4. Found the following needle lying loose inside the body. Found out what that business was all about and re-attached it with, may I say, surgical precision ;)<br>

5. Cleaned the focusing screen.<br>

6. Fixed the seals.<br>

7. Cleaned the mirror. It is shiny new now.<br>

8. Mirror lock has been cured.<br>

9. Prism is sparkling clean.<br>

10. Capping has been cured. No more shutter bounce even.<br>

11. The meter has been calibrated to work properly. Agrees with my EOS 5e (set in center weighted metering mode, not that it should matter with a diffused light source filling most of the viewfinder).</p>

<p>Took it out for a spin last weekend. Pictures came out wonderful! I am going to leave the speeds as they are now. If they give me trouble, I will try to fix them then. No need to repair something that works satisfactorily.</p>

<p>Well, so where are we now? A camera, left for almost dead, certainly useless, is functioning pretty well now. Fairly accurate. I wouldn't be surprised if it does like this for another several years at least.</p>

<p>Given that for many people here a camera is like a magic box and is supposed to be repaired by some gods, I should be feeling really really great. But I feel that I have made nice progress in understanding how it works. It is just a machine. Any one with a little caution and thoroughness can learn how to fix or repair it. I do realize that many people here are professional photographers and would rather give money to a professional to have their equipment repaired. Fair enough. But at the same time, I bet there are professional photographers who are mechanically inclined and curious about how stuff works and do basic repair maintenance of their equipment themselves. My philosophy is to encourage anyone who shows curiosity to learn new stuff. YMMV.</p>

<p> </p>

[awahlster]

<p>an example of why I do not encourage people with no experiance working on there own cameras:<br>

<a href="http://www.photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00VnPw">http://www.photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00VnPw</a></p>

 

[richard_cook2]

<p>A paragraph is devoted to shutter speed adjustment of the Canon FTb on page 72 of Tomosy's Camera Maintenance and Repair Book 1. He says:<br>

'Shutter adjustment is down at the bottom in the usual position. You need a forked screwdriver to turn the ratchet wheels. When oiling the shutter, the curtain shafts and the timing gears are the ones needing the oil most desperately. The FTb has an extra master shaft running from top to bottom. Oil these three shafts in their brass bushings, both top and bottom (six bushings).'<br>

In his picture, which is of the entire bottom of the camera, his screwdriver appears to be pointing to the wheel that the upper arrow is pointing to in your first picture.<br>

The curtain shaft and master shaft are labelled on the other side of the bottom of the camera.</p>

[h_s1]

<p>Richard, thanks for the quote. What I understand from that is that, as I mentioned in my of my earlier posts, they (screws at bottom right of the camera) appears to be settings for curtain tensions. I might be wrong here, but what I was looking for was the setting that changes time between the release of the two curtains.</p>

<p>In my earlier post, if you see at a photo I attached, the cam pointed to by cyan arrow is also reportedly used for setting high shutter speed (1/1000).</p>

<p>Mark, not sure what you want to accomplish by that example. But what I see from that is that one should ask around in advance before starting out on such a project and learn what other knowledgeable people have to share, and I do appreciate your concern. You do realize that in a real world professionals also make mistakes and are not right all the time, don't you? One can find counter examples for any situation.</p>

<p> </p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>Here I took a National Camera Repair course back in the 1960's. *ALOT* of tricks of how to fix or repair stuff is really not well documented. Thus having some duds to take apart and learn from is the best teacher I have ever had.<br>

<br /> Bob is correct in that opening a camera that you have never worked on before has alot more risk. Ones sucesses after while get tempered by failures. One has springs jump 12 feet away. One has hidden set screws that are not documented. One has a tiny screw that would stay put as is for 200 years; but because you tried to loosen it; it broke. You find out the hard way that these are always corroded; or glued/locktited in place; or there is another grub/set screw that locks the 1st screw in place.<br>

That is how one learns.<br>

With care one can avoid gross failures; one has a vertical shield to catch springs like a watch repair chap uses.<br>

*Also* you do not let the lay dumb public have you rush a job that is dicey. One might have to soak the screws; heat them; wait until they really want to be loosened.<br>

<br /> Some folks are careless; they do not pay attention to details; after awhile this will catch up with you in repairs.<br>

<br /> Repair stuff is in a decline; there is a dumbing down I am helpless mindset.</p>

[awahlster]

<p>THE reason I caution against DIY camera repair is very simple there is no way from a post or two on a Photo froum to assess someones technical abilities or mechanical experiance. SO rather then help them screw up their latest toy. It is better to strongly caution against the DIY method.<br>

Now that said you might get lucky. Most of the time when some guy comes in here and asks how to squirt oil on the mirror dampener on an A series camera (not the correct way to fix the so called shutter squeek) or what every thing inside a camera that someone comes up with we hear all about it when they start to tear the thing apart BUT we almost NEVER hear when they get it working perfectly again. That said I assume they DON'T.</p>

 

[h_s1]

<p>Mark, again, I understand your concern. But what I don't understand is your persistence in refusing to comprehend when somebody is asking for specific information while realizing the risks involved, and failing to differentiate between the situations you seem to be fixated on and situations which represent a wider spectrum of the scenarios. Your seem to be fanatically focused on a tiny subset of likely situations.</p>

<p>A reasonable way would be something on the lines of "I would strongly recommend you take your xyz camera to a professional for repairs. Having said that, since you are insisting on asking for help, here is what needs to be done based on my own experience." For good measure, you can append "Consider yourself warned!" with that disclaimer. Presumption here being that the risk to too great and reward is not large if a person tries to do this himself.</p>

<p>I don't want to get in to typical "car analogies", but in general we do stuff ourselves on a daily basis which some people train for years to be professionals of. We don't go running to the pros for every little deed we do in our lives. I dare you to prove otherwise.</p>

<p>Finally, as I mentioned earlier, I realize the risks. I am willing to give it a shot. The camera is expendable. I am following a very meticulous and systematic approach (which you call being lucky!). The reward for me out of this is invaluable. The power of internet has helped me a great deal. Too bad the clique of ever diminishing number of repair pros for these situations is being broken, but such is the nature of evolution of technology.</p>

<p>BTW, all this discussion has reminded of a news I read several months ago. A city sued a home owner because he canceled garbage collection service as he was recycling all this waste himself. He got sued because he did not leave trash collection and recycling to the pros!</p>

<p>BTW, you never hear of positive outcomes in such situations on the internet because people seldom post that stuff. Okay, I will take the bait. How many people you know who go see a doctor only to report they are fine and dandy and have no health problems at all? But seriously, the conclusion you have reached, that no one posts success in camera repairs mean all are failing, is extremely presumptuous, if not wrong based on flawed logic. BTW, this might be news to you, this phenomenon is nothing new, it is common in all fields.</p>

<p> </p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>Mark; some of us have taken apart "stuff" since we are about 2; thus it is really in our DNA to "work on things". Other folks will not attempt to replace a cars air filter or put together a kids bike; or develop film; or put more memory in a computer;or sharpen a mower blade . <br>

<br /> For example; a coworker attempted to change the oil in his car; he drained the manual transmission; replaced the engines oil filter and did NOT wonder why it only took 1 to 1 1/2 quarts of oil to top off the engine. He drove from LA to San Diego; then a back and transmission ate itself. Then he topped off the transmission; played dumb and the loacl dealer replaced the transmisson under warranty.<br>

<br /> At a local power company near a business of mine in the south; replacing or adding memory in mac is too difficult; they ship off the computers for upgrades; or fly in an IT guy to do it.<br>

<br /> If one has the attitude of one is going to fail at a task; or one is the blind assuming type; then repairing stuff; loading film; using a darkroom should be avoided. It is all scary risky stuff.<br>

<br /> Another friend attempted to clean his lawn mower and sharpened its blade; he flipped it over , cleaned the deck, sharpened the blade. After righting the mower; he cranked it up and alot of smoke came out. He did NOT know/understand that oil got up in the cylinder head. Heck I never got asked about this. Thus he took it to a PRO mower repair place; who concluded that the mower needed a rebuild. The friend believed the "expert"; he got the engine rebuilt. Then when the mower was cutting the next time at home; the engine locked up; they blamed my friend. After some lawyers pressure; the pros rebuilt the engine again; now it works.<br>

<br /> For many folks it is better they do not attempt camera repairs; darkroom work; ebay; garage sales; buying used; catching a ball; if one wants zero failures.<br>

<br /> For some of us; we enjoy the thrill of fixing things; understanding "how stuff works"; thus repairs are as natural as breathing; secondary.</p>

[awahlster]

HS and Kelly

 

My first post was just what you suggest HS

 

"If you have no experiance then it would be best to have someone else who does have the experiance to do it.

First off you need a copy of the service manual

Second you need a shutter speed tester"

 

And the reason I did not give you advise on how to adjust your shutter is that I have NO CLUE how to do this. SO I have nothing to ad.

 

It has been suggested that some people due to there natural ability with mechanical stuff can tackle thiskind of a repair. Sure great fine. BUT not always. Since you have NO idea who is reading this thread you can only speak to your own experiance.

 

 

 

I as the moderator have to look at the guy 3 years from now that finds this thread and has no clue but he just bought a set of small screw drivers so he's all set.

 

This is a Photgraphy forum not a camera repair forum. AS has been brought up here there is an excellent forum to ask these questions.

[h_s1]

<p>Yes, Mark, that is the concern I already stated I understand. And you did a terrific job of putting a warning for posterity. But repeating it in a single thread gives the impression that you do *not* want anyone to do any repairs themselves in spite of people's desire to learn to do so. I wonder how you would feel if the shoe were on the other foot. If I do not know answers to a particular query on a forum, my simple approach is not to respond.</p>

<p>This is a forum for people who browse the internet. The *internet*. This is not a peer reviewed technical journal or an investigative report by a newspaper that everything has to be precise and correct. So, take it easy, man! Anyone who believes everything appearing on a forum on the internet and wrecks a camera had it coming anyway, forum or no forum :)</p>

<p>Regarding the scope of the forum, I am not a moderator nor the owner of this site. I am not a king here and I do not make decrees. So powers that be may change rules on their own whims and fancies. But this being FD *equipment* forum, I understood that tinkering with fd gear would be fare game. I am sure I am not alone in this line of thought.</p>

<p> </p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>Mark; to test a focal plane shutter one can use a chaulk line on a record on a hand crank record player in the middle of a 3rd world county; you photography the record and measure the arc angle with a protractor. With an old B&W TV on shot the screen; you count the odd or even lines and divide this into a number; you get the actual speed. The record player scheme goes back before any of us were born; the TV method say the 1940's.<br>

<br /> In the history of Photo.net and the Greenspun photoboard there have been hundreds of threads about repairing certain camera items. Most have warnings about being carefull.<br>

<br /> The way I bumped into the Greenspun board say 12 + years ago was due to camera repairs; I got a nice answer from a late great repair guru. Thus your comment about not being a repair forum comes across abit funny.<br>

<br /> Many and most camera repair manuals do not point out how to fix things; or shortcuts; or minefields. That is why some of us like to ask another; since their prior mistake can help us greatly; ie we do not drop into the same minefield.<br>

<br /> The ONLY way to learning how to fix many items is by actually going for it; ie there is no magically how to book documenting all the issues. Here I work sometimes on survey levels and transits too; with some models one is on ones own; the maker of the item holds the trick repair methods.<br>

<br /> All of us can agree that if somebody stumbles on a thread about repairs and learns a trick preventing a repair minefield; then this is good.<br>

<br /> My worry is that repairing seems to be a lost art; and that many old cameras will be just pitched out. Repair costs are rising while the body of knowledge is dropping.</p>

[awahlster]

<p>I gotta stop reading this thread</p>