New Shen-Hao v. Used Linhof Technika

[rudy_barnes]

I am interested in forum member comments and advice regarding the

merits, on a limited budget, of a new Shen-Hao, which appears to have

all the movements I could ask for versus a used Linhof Technika IV

(the V's and masters are out of my price range, and the III's appears

to have too many limitations. For the record, I've more or less

decided against a monorail -- other than the Discovery, which is

never available used -- because of portability issues. I've also

discounted, perhaps unfairly, the Wista SP and Toyo 45A family as not

being appreciably cheaper used than a Tech IV). Simply ticking off

the boxes, the Shen-Hao appears to have the advantage - cheaper, new

and under warranty, interchangeable bellows, etc. -- but I know there

is much more to a camera than features. Feel and ease of use, as well

as lasting value count for a lot. Unfortunately, I have no

opportunity to see or use any of these cameras. Is it crazy to even

consider a forty year old camera as compared to a new one -- would it

involve significantly more maintenance and repair and general

headache? I should mention that my point of reference price-wise, is

$625 for a new Shen-hao from Badger, and used Technika IV's (some

with new bellows) from $950-1100 at Midwest Photo.

 

Thanks

[jason_greenberg_motamedi]

Consider the new Toyo CF. At $500 its cheaper than either, and has similar

movements to the Technika, although significantly lighter than either camera

you are considering.

[david_clark4]

Hi Rudy, seems to me you have put yourself into an artifical forced choice. If you are looking for a 4*5 field camera I think there are more models and perhaps better models to chose from, and I've seen cheaper. Just my opinion, good luck whatever you decisde. David

[dan_smith]

When your Shen How is falling apart your technica will still be going strong. You get what you pay for and the Technicas are excellent cameras that last a long time and work well. A technica can be folded & put in a suitcase & withstand the baggage gorillas with few problems while many of the wooden cameras will be torn apart. If possible, try a technica as even though they are one of the finest cameras made it may not fit your style of working. If it does, get it and you won't need another camera.

[jackflesher]

Techs are great, but heavy. For $500, I'd definately look at the Toyo CF -- I checked one out last week, and it is pretty darn slick. It has no rear swing, shift or rise/fall -- which aren't really needed much in the field anyway -- but it is more rigid than a Wisner(!) and weighs in at less than 4 lbs. It's the same size as a Tech.

 

Cheers,

[steve_swinehart]

"...no rear swing, shift or rise/fall -- which aren't really needed much in the field anyway..."

 

I would agree that I can get by without rear shift and rise / fall IF the camera has a front shift and front rise / fall. But I totally disagree with swing & tilt. YOU may not use them but I use them at least 20% of the time - making any camera without those corrections useless in my opinion. A Technika IV may be an "old" camera, but they are so well designed and built that maintenance and repair should be minimal.

[tony_galt]

I have a Shen Hao. I think it is a fine camera to start LF with. It is solid and a little heavier than some of the competition, the new Toyo to be sure, and even the Tachihara. The Technika is of course heavier yet. Will it endure as long as an all metal Technika IV--I don't think so. It does use Technika style lensboards so if you decided you wanted to switch you could easily do that once you've got some lenses. It has alot of movements for its price and that is what makes it a good camera on which to learn LF technique. It only lacks rear fall and front shift. Movements are fairly convenient to use, although zeroing the standards requires a quick check with a torpedo level (none is built in and the detents are sloppy). I'm finding the primary limitation to be the short bellows draw which allows the use of perhaps a 270 mm lens at best. (My longest so far is a 210 and that is fine.) The Linhof will focus lenses in the 300 mm + category. Of course, one can go to telephoto lenses on the Shen Hao, but these have limited movement. One can also crop or use a roll film back. I've never used a Technika, but from descriptions it sounds as though they are very precise and set up more rapidly than does a Shen Hao and will do lots of things, but not always as conveniently (i.e. drop bed for wide angle, finicky controls for back movements.) (See the Technika review on Luan's LF page.)

 

The kinds of movements you use, of course, depends upon what you intend to photograph. With most landscape you can probably get way with front tilts, swings and rise and those are the movements I do use most. However, I've found myself interested in photographing churches lately and the back movements on the Shen Hao really come into play there when I have to tilt the camera up and level the front and back standards to avoid converging verticals and get in the spires. Also in landscape there are some aesthetic reasons why you might want to use back movements instead of front movements. Back movements can be used to exaggerate the size of elements in the picture. The Linhof will do all of this--sounds like the Toyo has limited movements on the back. I wouldn't like that. So consider what you might want to photograph and base a decision on that.

[tim_atherton2]

bear in mind that the Linhof you mention may well need new bellows soon, if it hasn't had them recently. I understand the leather bellows of that vintage, if they haven't been extremely well cared for, have a trendency to suffer from age - ie pinholes.

 

I'd also add not to write off the used Toyo 45 A/AII/AX at around that price. It will do all of what you want.

[tedharris]

While it is too soon to tell (the Shen Hao has only been on the market for

about a year) Dan is probably right regarding its longivity. So are the posters

who asked why you are so tightly limiting yourself. Using your ~ $1000

reference point there are many many used camers taht you can consider. For

example, if you like The Technika style then what about the Horseman FA or

HD or HF? Midwest has all of these available and at prices similar to what

you have been mentioning. The Horseman is lighter than the Linhof and has

all the advantages except no rangefinder. There are also the 'technical

cameras' from Wista to name a coupl eof sturdy all metal body choices.

 

Figure out your nees and then look at all the cameras that meet them.

 

Ted

[stephen_ratzlaff]

I too had my heart set on one of these. I also have the Toyo-View 45CX which uses the same 110mm lens boards.

 

Well ... to make a long story short. I decided to not buy the 45CF after handling/playing with it for more than two hours at my local pro shop. I have a pretty good relationship with the folks at my local pro shop and, basically, they hand me a new box, I unpack and play with the gear to see if I'd like to buy it.

 

I examined every aspect of the 45CF and found a lot to like about the camera. But ... two turn-offs which kept me from buying one.

 

First, the major turn-off. The two little, fragile clips which hold the ground glass frame on the rear standard bend quite easily, actually much, much too easily. IMHO, I really don't think they'll hold up over the long run. They are not up to the normal Toyo-View standards of quality in my opinion. These clips are very cheap and very fragile. The back is only held in place by these two clips on the top of the rear standard and it was this poor design/implementation which really prevented me from purchasing the camera.

 

Second, this is pretty minor compared to the first item. The tilt mechanism is rough and pretty cheap as well. The detents are too strong. The metal pieces attached to the lens board mount have a semi-circular cutout in them which doesn't line up well with the metal standards rails on the front standard (vertical supports on either side of the lens board on the front standard). I really don't know how to explain this, you'd have to see and play with one in person to understand. Anyhow, setting the tilt in the front standard is really a hit-and-mis proposition, especially since the detents are way too strong.

 

The things I really liked about the 45CF. There's a lot to like about it, really.

 

1.) Very light weight.

2.) Pretty tight lock-up of all movements.

3.) Appears to be pretty sturdy as well. There didn't appear to be any movement of the standards once locked up. I think the 45CF would handle wind pretty well. Don't let the polycarbonate materials fool you.

 

It's really too bad. If it were not for the two turn-offs listed above, I would have bought one of these last Friday. Instead, I'm also looking at the Shen-Hao. Either that, or I'll be saving up for a while longer for the AII or an AX. That rotating back on the AII is really nice.

 

Regards

[paulrumohr]

The Shen hao is just fine. I love mine actually.

 

The way it ships is a tribute to it's simplicity. When I got mine, it came bubble

wrapped- with nothing else.

 

There is no instruction manual. There is no additional products to purchase

flyer. There are no junk promotions. Heck, there's not even a box.

 

It kind of reminds me of buying an instrument. Can you play it or can't you?

That's all that really counts right?

 

The Linhof is amazingly engineered, so if you love great design and

engineering this should certainly enter into your decision.

 

But there is nothing WRONG or DEFECTIVE about the Shen hao design. It is

built well, works great, and just happens to be manufactured in a country that

can produce goods at extremely low unit costs.

 

I'd call Badger and see if you could check one out and return it if you didn't

like it. I think you'll be keeping it.

 

The only thing I would suggest is getting a 20/20 Brightscreen because the

ground glass focussing is a bit dim. The reflex viewer is also a pretty groovy

accessory.

[Troll]

You can't go wrong with a Technika V or Master, but I'd steer away from a IV unless you buy it with a complete set of lenses already coupled to the Rangefnder. HP Marketing has been making nasty noises about being unable to service some IVs, also. (My Technika is a IV, though lightly used, it's on its third bellows at $400 per.)

[rudy_barnes]

Thanks to you all for your helpful responses; it's made for informative reading and led to quite a bit of thinking and second-guessing on my part. I wanted to share a couple of follow-on comments.

 

The selection of Shen-Hao v. Linhof Tech IV does seem arbitrary, but there is a strange logic behind it. My information is definitely imperfect -- to be honest, I hadn't heard anything about the Horseman FA (and even now, a search on this forum reveals next to nothing about it), but if indeed a used FA can be had for ca. $1000 then I will certainly consider it.

 

For all of the hoopla surrounding the Toyo CF, I'm just not sure I could invest in a camera with no back movements; it seems quaint in an old graflex, but not in a new camera. Incidentally, although the toyoview website claims rear tilt and swing, I called toyo today and they confirmed that the CF does indeed lack rear movements (apart from a miniscule amount of "tilt" when the bed is dropped). The Horseman HD suffers from a similar infirmity.

 

The Toyo 45A family seems ideal, but used prices, from the small sample I've seen, hover just north and south of $1000. At that price, for a used camera, I'm not sure that a used Linhof isn't the better investment, both from the standpoint of use and reliability. I suppose it comes down to durability -- is a used camera a used camera, or do they have a finite lifetime? Does a 10 year old, well-used Toyo 45A have a longer useful life than a 40 year well-used Linhof Tech IV? If so, then the Toyo might make more sense.

 

Capability is also important. Being somewhat new to LF, I don't have fixed work habits, only theoretical ones. All the same, if camera "a" allows more efficient use of wide-angle lenses than camera "b," then I might prefer it. My sense is that, barring the Wista SP (another, like the Horseman, that I would consider if available used in the $1000 range, but I don't get the impression that's likely) which can swap bellows, the Toyo 45A and Linhof Tech IV don't differ appreciably in extent of movements, but I'd be happy to hear actual user impressions.

 

What of wood cameras? The Shen Hao is wood, after all. Well, the Zone VI gets routinely slagged, and even used will be more expensive than a new Shen Hao, so it's out. The Wisner traditional is ca. $1400 new, rare used, and then at prices that again, make me think a metal Linhof or Toyo would be more suitable. The Tachihara is light, but I think the Shen Hao's movements are a better compromise for my needs. Obviously, price point has a lot to do with the seemingly random result -- if the Shen Hao were $1000, or even $800, I think my analysis would change slightly. For the same reason, suggestions I consider a Canham DLC or Phillips or Ebony push me toward a higher price than I'm comfortable spending.

 

Upon further review of the forum, I should probably include the Toho FC-45x as well. Kerry Thalmann's review is exceptional (very detailed and informative); the camera is light, appears to be ruggedly constructed, and has an appealing flexibility.

 

Oh well. I'm not sure I'm really leading toward any particular conclusion. Does a potential purchase group with a Shen Hao and a Linhof Tech IV as the leading contenders, and a new Toho FC-45x and used Toyo 45A as dark horses seem random? I can see that viewpoint, but in some ways it seems inevitable.

 

Thanks again for all of your comments.

[ed_candland1]

Hi Rudy,

I know what you�re going through. I bought my first LF camera earlier this year and went through the same thing. It's both fun and frustrating at the same time. I ended up with a new Toyo 45AX and have been happy with it. As for the Horseman FAs, I'm sure they are nice cameras and they are light but be aware they have an even shorter bellows than the other metal field camera at about 260mm. So a 210 would be about the longest practical lens you could use. The only metal cameras that can be used with 300+ non-tele lens are the Technikas and Canhams. This may or may not be of concern. Good luck and have fun.

Ed,

[ed_candland1]

Oh before others pipe in and I'm sure they would. I should say some other metal field cameras (Toyo,Wista) can be used with 300mm lens but can't focus much closer than infinity without some sort of extention.

[rbradbury]

Just another thought to consider: About 18 years ago, I bought a used Toyo 45A from a photographer who had put it through the mill in the desert southwest for 10 or more years before that. It was loaded with that gritty southwest "dust" and he thought it was practically useless. He sold it to me for $100. A few years later, I sent it off to Mamiya and, for $300, they put it back into nearly new condition. I've been using it since as my only LF camera and I'm pretty sure it's going to outlast me. I may have to do some future maintenance on it, but unless I drop it off a cliff face I don't think it'll ever wear out. On the other hand, it is heavy, and I've lusted a time or two for one of the super-lightweight new cameras. If it came down to it, though, and by some unlikely chance I ever had enough money for one of them, I'd probably buy a long lens instead.

[ilkka]

I also think the comparison is a bit strange. Shen Hao is just about the cheapest one around while Linhof is the absolute top of the hill. If price is an issue, and it always tends to be, I think Shen Hao is excellent value.

 

Shen Hao is very well and solidly built. It is also very simple, made of wood with metal hardware. I absolutely do not agree with disparaging comments suggesting that it would soon fall apart. And if something does eventually go wrong, chances are any reasonably competent woodworker can fix it. Repairing a Linhof will probably cost quite a lot more.

 

When I bought my Shen Hao in China, it came packed in its own fitted aluminium case. And there is quite a range of accessories available, including reflex finder, 6x12 back etc. Most of them a lot cheaper than anything made in the west. The website has info on all of these and has also contact details. I e-mailed Mr Zhang and got a page long price list of accessories and equipment.

[photobyalan.com]

I am very pleased with my new Shen Hao. My Sinar F was just too big and bulky for backpacking but I was very concerned about giving up all the movements of the monorail camera. The Toyo 45CF was very light, but I did not particularly like the plastic look and feel and the lack of back movements was the deciding factor. Sure, you can take pictures without back movements, but it's a heck of a lot easier to have them available. The Shen Hao is reasonably light, folds up compactly and is fairly easy to set up. I would second the idea of using a torpedo level for getting the camera straight when setting up. The detents indeed have a little play, although I would not characterize them as "sloppy". The bulid quality of the camera is fine. It's not Swiss precision (and the price certainly reflects that), but neither is it a cheap piece of crap that's going to fall apart in a few years. The Shen Hao should last as long as any other wooden camera, which is a long time - provided it is not abused, drop-kicked, subjected to car washes, etc. Anything that might go wrong can easily be fixed by a competent woodworker. The camera's teak-and-black-metal look may not be as "beautiful" as, say, the Wisner, but it is quite stately and attractive nevertheless. And the sight of all that leftover cash in my wallet is definitely beautiful.

 

You will get a lot of comments from people saying "you get what you pay for". While this is often true, there are many exceptions (I buy $13 jeans at Costco that look the same and last a LOT longer than $35 Levi's) More important for me, though, is whether I got my money's worth. At $625 for the Shen Hao, that's a no-brainer. If I had to spend over $3,000 to get a new Linhof, or over $1,000 for a used one (which is not likely to be in pristine condition) I don't know if I'd feel the same way. I do know that I'd be lucky to still be able to afford a single lens after shelling out that much money.

 

While buying used cameras is not quite as risky as buying used cars, you should definitely take into account that a 40-year-old camera is probably going to need some TLC. Bellows don't last forever and are not cheap to replace, and repairs on Linhof cameras are fairly expensive. Sellers of used cameras have a tendency to "overlook" faults and to rate the condition of cameras vey optimistically. Every used camera I have ever bought has been in worse condition than it was described in the ad. I've had to return some, and that's a hassle. All these things need to be taken into account when deciding between new and used.

 

If you care what other photographers think of you, then you should get the Linhof. When you pay extra for a famous name like that, they have to respect you, right? If, however, you are satisfied with the size of your penis and you want to have some money left over for trivial things like lenses and bright screens and tripods and film...then get the Shen Hao.

[eugene_singer]

Alan, my sentiments, exactly! Dollar for dollar, ounce for ounce, the Shen Hao is hard to beat. I have owned a Calumet Woodfield (Tachihara), a Wista DX, and two Wisner Tech Fields during the past twenty years. The Shen Hao will hold it's own against any of those wooden field cameras. I could purchase three of them for the price of a Wisner Tech. field. Each camera had it's own unique features and operating quirks. However,it's not logical to compare metal field cameras and monorails to wooden field cameras. I see that done quite often.

[dan_smith]

Why is it not logical to compare metal field cameras with wooden field cameras? They are made of different materials but are designed to do the same job. They compete head to head in the marketplace and as such are compared daily by those contemplating buying a field camera.

I have a nice older Technica in 4x5 that works well. In 30 years I have replaced the bellows once. I have had a nice low cost wood field camera & replaced the bellows once. Replacement from an aftermarket supplier was the same for both cameras though quicker for the technica because the bellows maker was familiar with them. I don't use the technica much as it is a 4x5 and I shoot mainly 5x7 and up. I carry it as the emergency spare more than anything with a few extra MIDO lightweight holders & an extra box of film. It will take a beating none of my wooden cameras will though I feel pretty confident in the Deardorffs after watching a friends bounce down 12 steps & crash into a wall with only a few scratches.

The Shen Hao may well be a nice camera. There are many out there. Its main attraction seems to be its price. It hasn't been on the market long enough to know how well it will last in field use but judging from many other similar woodies it should do just fine for a long time. I wouldn't buy one because it is apparently made in mainland China and I don't care to support the regime in charge at this time. That doesn't mean it is not a good camera, just that I don't like putting my money in their hands for various reasons.

As for wood or metal, if the camera feels right for you, use it. I like the technica but choose to use 50+ year old wood Deardorffs for most of my work. If you look you may be able to find an older deardorff in the price range you mention.

[ed_candland1]

Hi Dan,

 

I'm not sure if buying a camera from a citizen of China would be

supporting the regime. In fact I think giving some business to someone who lives in such conditions might be a good thing. Or maybe I'm not thinking it through correctly.

[brian_ellis3]

You should be able to get a very nice Technika IV for $1,000 or so from a reputable dealer like MidWest Photo Exchange or Ken Mar Camera or KEH. So I wouldn't be too concerned about hidden defects as long as you buy from a reputable dealer. I gather the Shen Hao costs $625, so you're looking at a difference of $375 more or less. That doesn't seem like a huge difference to me - maybe the cost of a photo trip, less than the likely cost of one lens, maybe a year's worth of film and processing depending on how much you shoot. So personally I wouldn't base my decision solely on price, I'd look at the features and quality of each. I thought the Shen Hao weighed about six pounds, which is what a Technika weighs so if I'm right there isn't much of a weight difference. I haven't had a Shen Hao so I can't say anything about it but I did have a Tachihara for several years and in some respects they're similar cameras. I liked the Tachihara a lot, especially its weight, but there's simply no comparison between the pleasure I get from using a finely designed and engineered, beautifully crafted, precision instrument like the Technika and the wooden Tachihara, nice a camera as it is. If that kind of intangible pleasure is important to you then I'd get the Technika. If you're more of a "all I care about is getting the job done" kind of person then the Shen Hao probably makes more sense if for no other reason than that it's new whereas a Technika IV is going to be old.

[ilkka]

Shen Hao is produced in Shanghai by a very small private enterprise which has nothing to do with the Chinese Government and its policies. As far as I am concerned, buying a Shen Hao would support private enterprise in China and I do not see anything bad in that. But it certainly should not be the reason to buy it (or not).

[ronald_lamarsh1]

I'd say get what feels best. I have an old Tech III and it does everything that I want. I can operatie it quickly and it packs very well. As to the comments about belows I haven't had any trouble. Lenses, check out the bellows draw on your canidates the Linhof should be good for anything from 90 to 360 mm. I personally prefer my linhof to others but also have a Burke and James 5x7 that works great for me. Bottom line is there is no perfect camera don't go broke on the camera or lenses get something that fits you and use the rest of your money for film etc. If you're a pro with a studio and commercial accounts then it pays to have the best of everything but then it is a busness.