Worth Upgrading from 430EX to 580EX II?

[jay_p.]

<p>I've had my 40D for two years now. During those two years, I have "collected" the following lenses:</p>

<ul>

<li>Canon 28-135mm f/3.5-3.6 IS USM, which I no longer use</li>

<li>Canon 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM, which I also no longer use</li>

<li>Canon 10-22mm f/3.4-4.5 USM, which I don't use very often</li>

<li>Canon 100mm f/2.8 USM macro (this is NOT the new IS version), which I use quite a bit</li>

<li>Canon 50mm f/1.8, which I don't use (I have been disappointed by its performance in low light--seems the colors are off)</li>

<li>Canon 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM, which has become one of my favorite lenses</li>

<li>Canon 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM, which gets quite a bit of use but is heavy for every day carrying around</li>

<li>Canon 24-105mm f/4 L IS USM--I don't know why, but I don't use this one very often</li>

<li>Tamron 28-300 f/3.5-6.3 VC/AF, which has become my general walkaround lens if I am only going to bring one lens with me</li>

<li>Canon 1.4x extender and 2x extender</li>

</ul>

<p>I also have a Speedlite 430EX that I purchased in May 2008. With the current round of Canon rebates about to expire, I am wondering whether it is worth upgrading from the 430EX to the 580EX II. I would appreciate your thoughts on what, if anything, I might gain from buying a 580EX II.<br>

<br />Most of my shooting is done outdoors. I like to do a lot of nature work, particularly plants and animals. I also like macro photography, including things like flowers and insects. Thus, I occasionally use the flash for fill. That said, though, I have two young children and photograph a lot of their sporting (especially indoor basketball)m school events (e.g., plays, recitals, etc.), and other activities (e.g., Cub Scouts). In fact, I bought my 40D because my point-and-shoot was not getting the job done when I tried to shoot my kids' basketball games and indoor school events. However, it seems that sometimes the 430EX falls a bit "short" in its range so I am wondering whether I will notice an improvement with the 580EX II. I don't mind spending the $400 or so to upgrade to the 580EX II if I will realize a noticeable difference over the 430EX. On the other hand, if I won't see much of a difference, I might instead use the $400 to purchase the 60mm f/2.8 macro USM that is also currently on rebate.<br>

<br />Thank you in advance for any input/advice you can offer.</p>

[tdigi]

<p>How far away are you shooting from? Assuming your at a distance that the flash is not helping you may benefit more from a faster lens but you have some very good lenses on the long end so maybe its your technique. What ISO are you using? maybe post a few examples of what is not looking right. </p>

[michael_young3]

<p>Very definitely, the 580 combined with the 430 will open new possibilities, and maybe change your ratio from "mostly outdoors" to include "lots of great indoor shots, too". The 580 can act as wireless master for the 430 slave. Dual light, or just getting the flash off camera, will do even more for your macro work than trading "down" to the 60/2.8. I think the 100mm is a little too close already for 1:1 shots. Maybe take a look at the Strobist blog to learn to light using flash. Consider getting a lightstand and an umbrella. The 430 (without umbrella) can also just go on a tripod with its little stand, but I prefer a more substantial metal cold shoe. If it were my money, I would definitely choose the 580EXii over the 60mm/2.8.</p>

[anders_carlsson]

<p>That's quite a lens collection with substantial overlaps, functionally and otherwise. I'd say you should sell the lenses you don't use and buy whatever flash you want. I agree with the previous poster: If you're serious about flash photography it certainly makes sense to have <em>both</em> the 580 (as master) and the 430 (as slave).</p>

[py-photography]

<p>+1 for selling lens you don't use.<br>

Then get the 580 with the cash from the sale of the unsed lens.<br>

I have the 7D which can control my 430 flash, but would love the extra power of the 580. Just isn't in the budget at hte current time.</p>

[nathangardner]

<p>A lot of those lenses are unnecessary and you could get some cash for them. I'd sell the 28-135mm and 70-300mm for sure, and maybe even the 17-55mm to get a 16-35mm L. Or use the money from lenses for some flash remotes. I'd tell you to sell the 28-300mm too, but if it comes in handy I guess you can keep it, although I don't agree with all-in-one superzooms; something (IQ) has to be sacraficed for all that convenience.</p>

[jay_p.]

<p>@Tommy G.--I'm not sure about the distances. Figure at least the width of a basketball court for the kids' basketball games (until the season that started this week, they had been playing on a practice court that was the width of a regular court). For the school events and other activities, I would say at least the length of a basketball court. I'm at work right and don't have easy access to my photos. If I have time tonight, I'll try posting some of the photos so you can see some of the issues I've encountered with the 430EX.</p>

<p>@Nathan G.--Why do you recommend possibly selling the 17-55mm in favor of the 16-35mmL? The 17-55 is f/2.8 and, with IS, is great indoors and outdoors in lower light situations. I have found it be pretty versatile. What am I missing by not having the 16-35?</p>

<p>@Everyone else--The 28-135mm and 70-300mm were part of a package deal when I bought the 40D. Since then, I've "upgraded" with the other lenses. I've kept the 28-135mm and 70-300mm for only two reasons: (1) in case I pick up a second body (like a 7D or 50D), I would give my 40D and the 28-135mm and 70-300mm to my wife and (2) I just haven't gotten around to trying to sell the 28-135 and 70-300. However, you all now have me really thinking that I should get off my rear and sell those two lenses. The reality is that when I do get a second body, my wife is not going to want to carry around something as large or heavy as the 70-300; she would do fine with just a general purpose like the Tamron 28-300.</p>

[tdigi]

<p>The 580 is a great flash, I never used 430's but in many cases even a 580 will not give enough light. I would probably shoot raw and boost the ISO to about 1600 and go with the fastest shutter possible. I do agree you have a lot of redundant lenses but by all means keep your 17-55. you will gain nothing by going to a 16-35, you will only have less range, bigger filters and no IS if you trade it.</p>

<p>But if it where me, I would sell of something. Maybe sell the 24-105 since you don't use it and get an 85 1.8 or something that is just not so redundant.</p>

[nathangardner]

<p>If you get a second body, use the lenses you'll have on it. You can only put one lens on at a time anyways. Selling the 17-55mm was just an option. You may want to keep it. For me personally I'd rather have the 16-35mm b/c I don't use IS at wide FL and I'd rather have the sturdier build than the extra reach. If I want to use the long end, I'll just use my 50mm prime. I have a 17-40mm and 90% of my shots are at the 17 end, so the extra reach wouldn't matter to me. I'm just giving you ideas, isn't that why you posted, to get different perspectives?</p>

[jeffrey_synn]

<p>Nathan: And in giving your "advice", you missed where the OP said the 17-55 was one of <em>his</em> favorites--not yours. Why suggest selling it if he is happy with it and is not asking about it? It's off topic.</p>

<p>Agreeing with others that selling your 40D's kit lenses for the 580EX II is a good idea. The added master functionality will let you repurpose your existing 430EX. You can consider getting an off shoe TTL cord--eBay has longer lengths for less money than Canon's OC-E3. This way, you can get the 580EX itself off camera as well without losing TTL, which will surely provide a lot of variety to your setup. You can use inexpensive radio transmitters instead but that means using all the flashes on manual, and I don't remember if the 430EX can do that.</p>

[buffdr_rasouliyan]

<p>580 EX II all the way. 430EX does not have an external connector for a battery pack. Just for that reason that is worth it. I used to use the 430 EX but after 4 sets of batteries, it gets old quickly. Now I simply fill up my external battery packs before the wedding and it lasts me all night. v/r Buffdr</p>

[carnagex_carnagex]

<p>"580 EX II all the way. 430EX does not have an external connector for a battery pack. Just for that reason that is worth it. I used to use the 430 EX but after 4 sets of batteries, it gets old quickly. Now I simply fill up my external battery packs before the wedding and it lasts me all night."<br>

For the 430EX you can mod a Quantum battery cable:

[athinkle]

<p>The 580 EX II really is a remarkable flash, and I'd recommend it without hesitation if you want to get more serious about flash photography. While no flash I know of will consistently get you the distance you want when it comes to a basketball court, the heightened power of the 580 does have other uses. I love its ability to maintain a good deal of power when using a heavy duty diffuser, such as the Lightsphere. The battery pack does work wonders, reducing the recycle time to almost nothing. The 580 EX II doesn't make the characteristic whining noise made by most other flashes, which can be a plus in quiet environments or when working with animals (many dogs hate that flash sound.) Finally, consider the purchase of a Canon speedlight transmitter along with the flash. The ability to remotely control all your flashes with full TTL control really opens up the possibilities. </p>

[jay_p.]

<p>Thank you all for your input! If I am understanding everyone correctly, the consensus seems to be that the 580EX II is definitely a better flash than the 430EX and that I'll definitely notice a difference.<br>

<br />What I find interesting (besides the almost unanimous opinion that I should sell off some glass) are the recommendations that I keep the 430EX and use it in conjunction with the 580EX II. I never thought about using two flashes so that's a novel item for me. My only hesitation is that I typically shoot in a hurry and don't see me having (or taking) the time to set up two flashes. By way of example, after two years, I just bought myself a tripod. In the two years I've had the 40D, everything has been shot handheld (which is why IS is such an important feature for me). In fact, a year ago I bought a monopod, but I still have never used it.<br>

<br />So, with that in mind, I would appreciate some clarification: Assuming I will not be setting up two flashes and will only be using a single flash mounted to my 40D's hotshoe, am I still better off with the 580EX II than the 430EX?</p>

[jeffreyfortuna]

<p>I own a 40D and both the 430EX I & the 580EX II. I owned the 430 first then bought the 580 about a year ago after reading how much better it is. <br>

I'm yet to rig up both flashes even though I do understand how to do it. I only use external flashes for mid-day fill or indoors where I bounce the flash off the wall or ceiling. I have no complaints about the 580EX II, the extra power has helped in rare cases but it's never really been a game changer for me. <br>

I'd suggest you buy the 580EX II then sell you 430 along with your 70-300. After using a 70-200 I'm pretty sure you'll never go back to using your 70-300..<br>

Jeffrey </p>

 

[michael_young3]

<blockquote>

<p>I never thought about using two flashes so that's a novel item for me.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Different strokes. "Photo" comes from the Greek for light. Sometimes the ambient light is adequate. Other times, there's not enough or there's too much in the wrong place. The advantage of the second light, especially if it's slaved and remote even if it is smaller, is it can put the light where you need it.</p>

[dave_holland]

<p>Until you get a light source away from the hotshoe you will not at all approach the real power of flash photography. On the hotshoe the 580 is marginally better, but the real advantage is that it can act as an optical master, and drive other flashes like the 430. I would definitely keep the 430, and I would buy a 580. The 430 has an optical receiver that allows you to place it anywhere in a room and the 580 in the hotshoe will trigger itself and the 430 with the built-in optical master. This can be done with other flashes as well, but the Canon system will allow you to retain your camera's ETTL system for automatic adjustment of flash output. You will have a little learning to do, getting over the technical details as to how it works. But after that, prepare for a phase shift in your photography skills. To learn more, google s-t-r-o-b-i-s-t for a series of free seminars on off-camera lighting.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

[jay_p.]

<blockquote>

<p>I'd suggest you buy the 580EX II then sell you 430 along with your 70-300. After using a 70-200 I'm pretty sure you'll never go back to using your 70-300..<br />Jeffrey</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yup, you hit the nail on the head. Since picking up the 70-200 (and the 28-300), I've had zero use for the 70-300. Guess it's time to list it on Craigslist or eBay. :-)</p>

[jay_p.]

<blockquote>

<p>Until you get a light source away from the hotshoe you will not at all approach the real power of flash photography. On the hotshoe the 580 is marginally better, but the real advantage is that it can act as an optical master, and drive other flashes like the 430. I would definitely keep the 430, and I would buy a 580. The 430 has an optical receiver that allows you to place it anywhere in a room and the 580 in the hotshoe will trigger itself and the 430 with the built-in optical master. This can be done with other flashes as well, but the Canon system will allow you to retain your camera's ETTL system for automatic adjustment of flash output. You will have a little learning to do, getting over the technical details as to how it works. But after that, prepare for a phase shift in your photography skills. To learn more, google s-t-r-o-b-i-s-t for a series of free seminars on off-camera lighting.<br>

Dave</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I get the benefits of using off-shoe lighting for portraits and stills. Is it practical/feasible to do off-shoe lighting, though, for things like kids basketball games and school activities when you're not the "official" photographer and merely are an obsessive parent who loves photograpy? For example, is it feasible to set up the off-shoe flash in one place and leave it there for the entire game/activity while moving yourself (and the camera) into different positions during the game/activity?</p>

[michael_young3]

<p>It doesn't hurt to ask. Super-clamp or bungee it to something already permanently mounted, rather than leaving a lightstand unattended close to the sidelines. Auditoriums are less of a problem, so long as it doesn't create a tripping hazard. As often as not, my lights weren't the only ones set up.</p>

[akphotograph]

<p>I love my 580EX II. I also have two 430EX IIs. I use the 580 to trigger the 430s off camera. If I only could have one flash, it would be the 580(used off camera of course).</p>

[jay_p.]

<blockquote>

<p>How far away are you shooting from? Assuming your at a distance that the flash is not helping you may benefit more from a faster lens but you have some very good lenses on the long end so maybe its your technique. What ISO are you using? maybe post a few examples of what is not looking right.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I'm sorry; it took me a couple of days to find the time to search for an example. Here is one. I took this at my company's holiday party last month. I've intentionally blurred the faces. It was taken with my 40D. Settings were auto exposure, exposure 1/60, f/4, auto-flash (which fired), 35mm, ISO 400, and auto white balance. I'm pretty sure I was using my 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM lens, but it could have been the Tamron 28-300.</p><div></div>

[michael_young3]

<p>Well, the good news here is you don't need the 580 to solve this. It looks like the infamous ETTL-II AF then re-frame problem. Basically, the 40D weights its flash exposure heavily on your AF point, which I would guess would have been the gal under the light directly in front. When you reframed, the AF point ended up on the white tablecloths. The 40D obediently rendered it a brilliant middle gray, trashing the exposure.</p>

<p>I have the same lens and flash, and know that this is an easy shot, even with just the popup flash. It isn't a matter of flash GN or power. Focal length looks about 28mm, making the distance 20 to 25 ft. The 430 will properly expose that coverage and distance at 1/16 manual flash power (for f/4 ISO-400). Shoot your own living room with those settings and see.</p>

<p>For the same shot, direct flash, try ETTL-II Average, rather than Evaluative. Or, if the 40D has FEL, pop a pre-flash to lock the exposure before reframing. Better still, if there was a light colored ceiling, go for a bounce, using ETTL-II Averaging and FEL before reframing. I think you'll be darned pleased with the results, even though the bounce sometimes picks up a color cast from the ceiling color. The whole scene will be pleasantly lit with no harsh highlight from the varnished wall paneling. Come to think of it, the harsh glare on the wall likely contributed to the underexposure.</p>

 

[jay_p.]

<p>I wasn't able to bounce flash because the ceiling was dark. Plus, the photo actually was taken by one of the servers, not by me. I think I put it on full auto, but truly don't remember. If I get a chance this weekend, I'll post a photo or two of the basketball shots that gave me trouble. <br>

Thanks again everyone for the input. Tomorrow will be my decision day as the rebates end on Saturday. Right now, I'm heavily leaning toward picking up the 580EX II and holding off on the 60mm f/2.8 USM macro.</p>

[dave_holland]

<p><em>"Is it practical/feasible to do off-shoe lighting, though, for things like kids basketball games and school activities when you're not the "official" photographer and merely are an obsessive parent who loves photograpy?"</em><br>

Absolutely! If you spend some time working on this you will find it pays itself back to you. Google strobist and find David Hobby's website, and do lighting 101. He's a professional photographer who does just that. If you scan the on-assignment series, there is a section describing how to place strobes for a basketball game. The Flickr discussion group, strobist, is a group of about 68,000 photographers who delve into off-camera flash. If you look up my photostream on flickr (my moniker is spelunkerd there), you will find a whole section explaining how to shoot hockey with battery powered flashes, exactly as you are asking above, with examples. But expect it to be a little more involved for triggering in an arena, since optical triggering in that setting is a little unreliable so you usually go with radiotriggering for that.</p>

<p>Cheers,<br>

Dave</p>