Daddy Daughter Dance-need advice

[katelynch]

<p>I live in small city and have a good business relationship with city staff. The city has purchased rights to several of my photographs and has hired me to photograph events over the past couple of years. Yesterday, I got a request from the city events manager to photograph the annual Valentine's Day Daddy Daughter Dance. I photographed a Santa event for the city a couple of years ago and it was a nightmare, mainly because parents came in with the expectation that I would operate like the mall Santa photographer: shoot a couple of photos, parent reviews and chooses, and a print is delivered on-site. However, the city events manager tells me that parents were very satisfied with the quality of images. The dance would be a little more manageable. Last year, the photographer the city contracted with produced about 70 portraits and apparently sold print packages for all of them. That's the reason I would even consider doing it. I would likely do at least $1500 in sales for 2-3 hours of shooting. I'm reasonably sure I could pull it off with a single source lighting (Nikon SB600 speedlight) with an umbrella. The event will be held in an elementary school's multipurpose room and there will be a backdrop for the portrait area. I have photographed events in this room before and got satisfactory results with this lighting plan.<br>

I'm thinking that I would offer either a flat rate of $30 (figuring on 2-6 images) for a CD with high-resolution jpegs, or charge $10 to post photos online, where prints can be ordered. A local waterfront museum offers portrait sittings with "Captain Claus." The photographer charges $20 for a CD with 2-3 images or $10 for one 5x7" which he mails to the client a week after the event. A local graduation photographer charges $40 for two 5x7" from on-stage images and doesn't sell CDs. I'm wondering if I should charge the city a nominal rate for being there?<br>

I haven't said yes or no yet. I have concerns mainly because I have no idea what the expectations are for this kind of event. Can someone enlighten me? This event is similar to a prom. I actually would be more comfortable as a roving photographer during the dance. Photojournalism is more my forte. I could offer that instead. But this is a military community, so I think there's an expectation of a portrait sitting. Generally the city lets moms into the dance to photograph dads and daughters dancing. I don't have on-site review and printing, and don't know if that's an expectation...or delivery a couple of days after the event.</p>

[pcnilssen]

<p>Kate, first of all, I think you have to find out kind of photo services what the customer expects. Couldn't you ask some parents that are going to attend what they would like to see and buy? (without any obligations of course). When you have established what they need, then you could look into prices, and whether that is "your cup of tea".</p>

<p>best of luck!</p>

[rt_jones]

<blockquote>

<p>I photographed a Santa event for the city a couple of years ago and it was a nightmare, mainly because parents came in with the expectation that I would operate like the mall Santa photographer... print is delivered on-site</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This should tell you what people expect at an event like this and personally, I wouldn't do it any other way. If you're not equipped for this and it keeps coming up why don't you consider doing it this way? At least look into it anyway.</p>

<p> </p>

[picturesque]

<p>Expectations for this kind of photography are changing, due to the pervasiveness of point and shoot digital cameras among the general population. This being the case, you've got to make your images different enough that people will know they are 'better' than what they can get with their point and shoots. In fact, if you don't watch out, people will be taking pictures in front of the provided backgrounds with their point and shoots, bypassing you entirely. I might figure out a background or hair light in addition to the main light, to make your lighting scheme sparkle.</p>

<p>In any case, I might not bother with posting online but go straight to CD sales and/or on site printing. The latter is better, but requires a good and fast printer and probably, help. Even more so, an 'after' delivery of images is a problem these days. People find it annoying to have to go to a website, make a decision, go through the payment process and wait for their images. Too much bother in their minds.</p>

<p>Pricing is what the market will bear, and you already have some idea what to do.</p>

[nishnishant]

<p>Whenever we do a Santa portrait for our son, I choose the cheapest option they have (usually 10 bucks for a 6x4 print) - and then I take 6-7 shots using my camera. So I treat the 10 bucks as a fee for shooting the Santa - I usually just discard the 6x4 picture anyway.</p>

<p>Sometimes though, they don't let you shoot pics yourself if you have an SLR - they do allow you to shoot if you have a small P&S or a cell phone camera. So that's something you may want to think of. Whether you want to let parents shoot pics too.</p>

[William Michael]

<p>The first question I would ask (of the Photographer who did it last year) is why they are NOT doing it this year - especially IF they "sold 70 print packages", which implies a fiscal success . . . who told you that?, the City Event’s Manager or did it come from then “Horse’s Mouth”?</p>

<p>IMO, you’ll sell more print packages if the money is taken and in the passion of the moment than if there is a later viewing and choosing online.</p>

<p>As to what the “Client” wants . . . and whether to charge the City for your time: if you do charge the City for your time, then I would expect the City’s Administration would become your Client: is that what you want? I am relatively surprised that the City is not charging a flat fee or a % for you to set up, if the operation is for you to make $ on Print or Disc sales.</p>

<p>WW </p>

[katelynch]

<p>Thanks for all of your help. I have a bit more information. The event is actually sponsored by the homeowners association. This is their fifth year and will sell out a month ahead. There is an expectation that a professional photographer will sell them print packages, similar to a prom portrait. The entry is controlled and the organization has promised to supply me with two staff to manage the line. I will bring my own helper and offer a basic print package or CD or print/CD combination, with reorder options. The events manager told me that they didn't like the product quality the photographer provided last year. They are not asking him/her back.<br>

Yes, RT, I agree that if I'm going to do more of this then I should invest in on-site printing. In researching what other photographers are doing for prom shoots, I ran across a photographer who asks for prepaid orders to load up to four images on a flash drive, custom printed with his business name. What a cool idea! The biggest pain with these jobs is order fulfillment (burning CDs, printing labels, packaging, etc.). I'm not sure I'm ready to make the investment (still have a day job) in on-site printing right now. I'm already contracted with the city for commercial projects. They like me, they like my work, and want to support photographers who live in the city. After the Santa event two years ago, I talked them into just hiring a Santa, charge a flat rate for families, and let the the parents do their own photography (much like Nish suggests). When I did that shoot, there were at least three single moms who were really upset because they scraped together enough for the breakfast but couldn't afford photographs. I quietly comped those moms while quietly cursing staff for putting me in that position.<br>

Nadine and William W, thanks again for your sterling advice. I had intended on investing in studio lights (finally!) this spring. I'll either have to do that earlier than I had planned or else rent lights. Hair light is a great idea for little girls in party dresses! And William, I'm thankful that no one is asking why they aren't charging the photographer for setting up. (shhh!)</p>

[ibdnzgr]

<p>I think you are right on target.I think people are sick of the mall packages for single poses and are refreshed by the choices we offer by taking LOTS of photos and giving them the option of ordering individually or getting everything on CD. I usually do full body shot of the couple, close up head and shoulders, child kissing dad, dad kissing daughter, individual full body shot of the daughter and close up of daughter.<br>

I do this type of event all the time. Just finished doing onsite Santa 4x6 prints for $5 each but also recently finished a couple of shoots... family portrait day at a school where families paid a $20 sitting fee as a donation to the school to buy equipment. Then they can buy prints starting at $10 online as well as digital downloads. I took maybe 40 photos of each family. They pretty much opted to just order a CD with all images and print permission for $75. For Daddy-Daughter dances, I like to charge a $10 sitting fee per couple, take lots of photos and then let them order prints online at 4x6 $1.50, 5x7 $3 and 8x10 $5 or $10 full res digital download. Maybe the CD option too. It is VERY popular.</p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong><em>"I agree that if I'm going to do more of this then I should invest in on-site printing."</em></strong><br>

<strong><em></em></strong><br>

For clarity . . .</p>

<p>There's no doubt in my mind that on-site printing, done well, is the best business option; but please note my wording, as it was precise:</p>

<p><em>"IMO, you’ll sell more print packages if<strong> the money is taken and in the passion of the moment </strong>than if there is a later viewing and choosing online.” </em></p>

<p>If you do not have the time or the capital resources to provide on-site Printing, or is you just want to test the waters and use this as a trial. . . then, you could (at much less expense) have a few "samples" of the what the final product would look like, and just take the orders on the night - that was my point.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>I have read carefully all your responses. </p>

<p>If it were me, I would still have a coffee and a chat with the previous Photographer - I like source information - some are not comfortable with that approach, and if you are not, I understand - I am just throwing it out there, as what I would do. <br>

<br>

WW</p>

[katelynch]

<p>WW - Sorry...I really did understand your post and am taking your advice. I was pressed for time last night, though, so combined responses to several folks here. I, too, like source information but I don't know who photographed the event last year. However, I could agree to do the shoot and then ask them who photographer was, so I can get a reading on his/her experience. I really would like to avoid the online selection method, so I think I'll offer a couple of basic print packages, a CD, and CD/print package combo. Prepaid, of course. I also like the samples idea. I did that with a couple of events to show different sizes with examples of my portrait work. I think this event will be a lot of fun - little girls and their Dads. Given portraiture has been a popular feature, I'm thinking about asking the registration desk to assign a time to each Dad, so there isn't a line 20 deep. I can add that to my order form, so Dads have a chance to think about what they want before they come over for photos.<br>

Ian, thanks much for your post. I really think this is a different kind of event than the Santa portraits, so I appreciate your perspective and advice.</p>

[William Michael]

<p>No need to be sorry. . . I was only ensuring my meaning got through. Not everyone reads as literally as I, it's nice if my ideas are used, but I don't necessarily get an high by that - I just enjoy that my opinions are considered and accepted or rebuffed with a logical argument.<br>

<br>

I think having the order form given to the Dad <strong><em>before</em></strong> the shoot is a good idea.<br>

<br>

WW </p>

 

[katelynch]

<p>I thought I would give you all a follow-up on the Daddy Daughter Dance. First of all, thank you to everyone for your good counsel about the Daddy Daughter Dance. I was able to get order forms out in advance and had about 60 orders. Only about a dozen were CD, which kind of surprised me. Several of the CD orders also wanted a souvenir package, which I priced at $12 for a 5x7" print, with a banner design at the bottom, and four wallets. It was a very busy couple of hours shooting. I learned a lot from the experience. Not sure I want to do this kind of thing on a regular basis but I did have fun. A couple of volunteers with the organization that sponsored the dance put together the backdrop. You'll see in the gallery (I posted some shots from the dance on photo.net) that the background needed a little work. It was ok for a souvenir event but there were problems all evening with the rippling backdrop and the shifting "red carpet." All in all, it was worthwhile albeit a LOT of work.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Glad it worked out, Kate. Looks good, and now you'll know what to do.</p>

[William Michael]

<p><em><strong>"I was able to get order forms out in advance and had about 60 orders. . . It was a very busy couple of hours shooting. I learned a lot from the experience."</strong></em></p>

<p> Seems to me that you imply costs were covered and more perhaps . . . - but the real PROFIT was the <em><strong>experience.</strong></em></p>

<p>Well done.</p>

<p>WW</p>

[katelynch]

<p>Yes, costs were covered. I think my actual profit was about $600. I haven't tallied all the costs (mailing, printing, packaging). I highly recommend MPix. I used them for the first time with this shoot and I am very impressed. Something I hadn't considered but figured into the success of this venture is that many of the dads are active-duty military. My city is right next to a huge Army and Air Force installation. There is a rich military tradition of formal events. Several dads were in dress blues and several were in rented tuxes! It was like a prom. Really really fun. And they were all having a wonderful time. I still haven't figured out how to avoid the long lines. My plan was to assign numbers but we were so busy all at once that none of us (there were three of us) could get a handle on numbering. My plan was to assign numbers to every order sheet and then call them up in groups of 10. The helper that was supposed to assign numbers couldn't figure out how to just do that. I never stopped shooting (except to change flash batteries) for almost two hours straight.</p>