Help Deciding to Change My Canon 580EX2 to Another Flash

[dennis_mansour1]

<p> I have a canon5D MK2 I just purchased. I have the Canon 580EX2 and I feel there is something better( stronger) to use. I was thinking of the Metz or the Quantum. I hate to break the bank but I want a more powerful flash. Any ideas for me? I also use a bounce card on my flash now. If I go with another flash will I be able to still use the Bounce card? I made the bounce card myself. Its about 6 inches wide and about 8 inches high. I attach it to my canon flash with velcro. I shoot mainly weddings and other social events. I like the bounce effect with the card for softer lighting. I do appreciate your help in this matter, Rollsman</p>

[picturesque]

<p>The Metz 76 (or 60) and the Quantum Q flashes will give you about 2/3 to 1 stop more light. Maybe you think the 580EX II isn't giving you enough light because Canon flash tends to underexpose? I don't know about the Metz 76, but the 60s and Q flashes don't have a lot of zoom settings, and the Q flash has a parabolic reflector, so at the longer zoom settings on the 580EX II, the power of the flash to the Metz and Q flash is comparable.</p>

<p>You can use a bounce card on just about any flash, including ones with parabolic reflectors.</p>

<p>What kind of ISOs are you using?</p>

[come together studios]

<p>I made the switch to the Metz 76 MZ5 and never looked back. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/413429-REG/Metz_MZ_76252_mecablitz_76_MZ_5_Digital.html This flash has the most power on the market today. It's perfect for reception halls. It has two flash heads. One for bounce and the other for fill. With the fill flash you really have no need for a bounce card but of course can still use one. You can also buy custom bounce cards from Protoflex. They also make a mini blow up soft box that can go over your main flash head for outdoor use. With the SCA slave module you can also have full ETTL with your 5D Mark II. The only problems I have had with the flash is the bulb blew once from over heating. Bogen Imaging is the American distributer and did fix the problem for free in just two days time. Also there is no PC port which makes things harder when adding Pocket Wizards to the mix. I connect the flash to the cameras hot shoe and the Pocket Wizard to the cameras PC port. If you buy this flash I recommend investing in the P76 Battery pack. You get a much quicker recycle time and it last a lot longer then the internal battery it comes with. With that said Quantum is also a really good flash company. I hear good things about the Q flash X5 DR but have never used it myself. Not sure if it has a fill flash built in. You really can't go wrong with either. ( Stay away from the Metz 54 MZ4. Its not as good as the 580II)</p>

[come together studios]

<p>To respond to Nadine's question. The Metz 76 has a zoom to 105mm. Exactly the same as the 580II but not as good as the the SB 900 for Nikon.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>I have to disagree with you on the fill flash, Todd. The tiny little second reflector is not so nice if you are bouncing the main light all around. I have the Metz 60 and 45 and never use them. It isn't the power of the second reflector, it is the quality of light.</p>

<p>Your mentioning the overheating repair reminds me of two negatives about the Metz units. I also have the 54, which I think is a great flash. I have a 580EX II and don't think it is better than the 54. In any case, Metz flashes recycle slower than the Canon units--both the 580EX and 580EX II. A full power recycle takes about 3-5 seconds, with a power pack attached. The Canon units are 1.5 seconds, and the 580EX II has pretty fast recycling. I didn't think I'd notice it, but I have. And I've sent the 54 in twice for overheating repair. This is neither better or worse than the Canon flashes. Overheating is a problem that affects all flashes.</p>

[savagesax]

"This flash has the most power on the market today, the Metz 76 MZ5"

 

The Quantum X series and the Norman 400 series both have top ratings of 400 watt seconds. To my knowledge, which of course can be questioned and debated, are the most powerful strobes on the market. I really don't think the Metz units are as powerful as the Norman's nor the Quantum X series. However, the Metz units, mainly the 60 and the 76 series, are more powerful than the Quantum T series flash units. How do I know this? Same as Nadine, I've shot and owned all of these except the Metz 76.

 

You will need to use a bracket for all of more powerful units, although the fairly new Quantum Trio flash can be mounted directly on your camera's hot shoe. I also have this flash and I use this as my main flash unit now for weddings and the T5DR (Quantum) are my backups. You have to use the turbo power packs for these.

 

The difference between the Quantum X and the Norman 400's is pretty straight forward. The Norman is a manual only strobe, whereas the Quantum has auto settings and manual settings. You can actually use the Norman 400 power pack with the Quantum X series.

 

The major difference between the Metz and the Quantums is the ability to go bare bulb, use reflectors, special domes, and even use a small softbox with the Quantums.

 

Picking out what flash unit you wish to use can be a very hard decision and often very costly. Some things to consider are weight, brackets, power packs, versatility, and of course actual raw power.

[come together studios]

<p>Bob i think you are taking me out of context. Of course the Normans are more powerful. Along with every strobe system out there. I am talking strictly as a on camera flash (with bracket) the 76 is very powerful. Not off camera strobes. <br>

Nadine I agree with you to an extent on the fill flash. I have never used it on a 60 or 40 but can tell you if you use it on 1/4 power on the 76 you will get great results. As long as you are a few feet from your subject. Also a small piece of Scotch Tape over the fill helps a great deal. Its all about how you use it. Knowing when to have it on and when to shut it off. </p>

[savagesax]

"I guess somehow I took you out of context." - Todd, I'm a bit confused...

 

Both the Quantums and the Normans can be used on brackets, as well as off camera. I think I'm missing something in your comment here.

 

I've used both of these brands on camera only, along with the Metz 60's and 45's. Anyway, thanks for responding.

 

http://www.qtm.com/?page=3231&qmode=c Quantum's website

 

http://www.calumetphoto.com/ctl?ac.ui.pn=popup.imageviewer&itemno=NR1072&w=605&h=700 Norman 400's

[savagesax]

This is my setup. I'm using the Canon 1Ds Mk3, with the Trio<div></div>

[come together studios]

<p>Well I apologize about the Normans. I have never heard of anyone using them as a on camera flash before. So I stand corrected. To be 100 percent exact the Metz 76 is not the most powerful flash on the market. Of course I was reffering to newer digital model when I made that statement. I'm sure there is a flash some where from the 1920's that's even more powerful then the Norman! Sometimes I forget how exact you must be on here or you get torn apart.<br>

As far as answering Dennis's original question I still believe I did. Not many people are going to recommend a Norman over a Digital flash to a 5D Mark II user. And if you read my original post I also recommended he look into the Q Flash.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Nobody is tearing you apart, Todd. You can't know every single flash on the market in the past 30 or 40 years if you aren't as old as I am. :^) The Norman 200B used to be used on camera by many wedding photographers in the past, but mostly with a bracket. You can still use it on camera. Because a battery pack is separate from the head, it is actually quite light. I've mounted a Sunpak 120J on a DSLR, and while it isn't the most comfortable, it is possible, and you can probably mount a Norman head on a DSLR too.</p>

<p>The Norman is going to be hard to use with today's high ISOs and wider apertures since it only has 3 output settings--not impossible, but difficult. As far as more power than the Normans, you still have the 400ws Norman, as well as the Lumedynes, which have variable power outputs via battery packs and they also have other ways of controlling power output--the newest Signature line pack can be cut to 3ws.</p>

<p>It is true that both the Metz and Quantum Q flashes are not all that much more powerful than the top of the line shoemounts such as the 580EX. Looking strictly at guide numbers, the Metz 76 is 177 (50mm zoom setting) and the Quantum is 150 (?). The 580EX is around 138. Using guide numbers to compare is valuable but does not give the whole picture in use, since guide numbers are determined by the manufacturer in ideal conditions and are usually optimistic. I find that one needs to ramp them down by 2/3 or 1 stop, particularly if outdoors, where reflectivity does not help you.</p>

<p>Then there is the issue of head zoom--the parabolic reflector flashes only have 2 positions. I'm glad to see that the Metz 76 has a head with specific zoom settings. It looks like a great flash. I've always been impressed with Metz products but they do have a few negatives, IMO.</p>

<p>And as for the second reflector--I've experimented with it extensively, cutting the power, etc., but the fact that it is a very small light source, plus the fact that I bounce quite differently now, makes me leave it off. I control forward spill by bounce panels (I've been using the Presslite Vertex) while bouncing the majority of the light directionally, off walls and ceiling corners.</p>

<p>Back to Dennis' question--I suspect he feels the 580EXII lacks power because ETTL II tends to underexpose. That's why I asked about this first. In reality, the 580EXII (and 580EX) can be made to give plenty of light, particularly if used with higher ISOs, like around 800.</p>

[come together studios]

<p>Thanks Nadine. I am the first to admit I do not know the older models well. You have cleared up some questions for me. Metz most certainly have a few negatives. That being said I love the Metz 76. I have used the 580II many time and clearly see the difference in power and over all quality. The fill flash is effective used correctly. It took me along time before I got what I wanted out of it but now love it. It fills in the shadows just enough when I need to bounce directly off the ceiling. I turn it off when bouncing from angles. The extra power of the 76 lets me shoot at a lower iso. Which is not important to some but is to me. I hate noise on any level know matter how little it is. The 5D MarkII has wonderful noise reduction at iso 800 but why not shoot 400 if you can. On a side not the new LightRoom 3 Beta converts Raws to J peg with amazing noise reduction as well. </p>

[savagesax]

Todd, I'm sorry you feel you were torn apart. That wasn't any or our's intentions, mine included. This is simply a forum offering opinions, which helps everyone. You are surely correct here about none of us knowing everything. Trust me, I've been slammed to, actually this past week I was corrected.

 

The reason I know about the different flash units is I've shot with all of them. Not too many people use the Normans, but the old timers, such as my photo partner Craig uses the 200 model. In some ways he is a master with this flash, because he knows at 10 feet or something he's at 1/2 power.

 

Notice I didn't make any comments about the Metz 76. I don't know a thing about it. In the film days I used the Metz 60, both the CT 1 and the CT 4. They are remarkable flash units so I'm sure the 76 is also a wonderful flash unit.

[come together studios]

<p>It's cool Bob. Sometimes I jump the gun. My fault. I tend to snap back quick. Its the New York in me. I know it wasn't your intention. </p>

[fotografz]

<p>I have used or currently use all of them at a wedding ... from the pop-up flash on my Hasselblad H3D-II/39 (LOL!) ... all the way to powerful 1200 w/s Profoto mono strobes ... and everything in-between. Here is my personal take on some of the more powerful portable ones (IMO):</p>

<p>Quantums ... bare bulb is great light when the proper light modifiers are used. Quantum makes VERY effective light modifiers for bare bulb flash work ... wide-angle reflectors in silver and gold (gold to warm the light when shooting at sunset or when dragging the shutter in tungsten light); a round dish type telephoto reflector that significantly increases the reach for teles, diffusion domes; and so on. I do not like Quantums because you are forced to use a battery pack tethered to the flash. To be fair I do not like ANY flash that needs a tethered battery unless it's off camera on a light stand. I also think it is a huge flash to be perched on top of a camera like a 5D or D700 and totally unbalances the camera. So, I do not put the Quantum in the category of shoe-mount flash.</p>

<p>Metz ... both the shoe mount and handle mounts have the little fill window ... if you tend to drag the shutter these little fills can be effective depending on distance to subject ... but the real benefit is that it creates a specular catch-light in the eyes of the subjects when using diffused bounce. In my experience, the current Metz Handle mounts do provide around a stop more light (maybe more) in general compared to the most powerful shoe-mounts ... that's the difference between f/4 and f/5.6 which can be considerable when shooting groups. Also, the actual light face of the newer Metz handle mounts is larger than the older Metz 45 and 60s, and larger than those of shoe-mounts. While you can also use a tethered battery with the Metz (like a Quantum Turbo C), you are not forced to. The Lithium battery that snugs into the base of the handle is light and long lasting, I carry two to a wedding, and rarely need the second one.</p>

<p>I still occasionally use a Sunpack 120J with a TTL module. While not the build quality of the Quantum or Metz, I still like this flash because it is a bare bulb unit with all the quality of light from a bare-bulb ... BUT doesn't require use of a tethered battery. I use 2900 mAh rechargeable in the 120J and they do the job. Most of the Quantum light modifiers work with the 120J.</p>

<p>I also still use a pair of Hasselblad D-40 bare bulb units for my off-camera kit for any camera ... these flashes are off-shoots from the 120J but built better and take 5 batteries rather than 4 like the 120J. There are no manual controls on this flash and no TTL when used with a Pocket Wizard ... but I don't care because I always use them at full output to get as much DOF possible in any light. I like using bare bulb for work with umbrellas due to the even circular dispersion of light using the parabolic reflector set to wide angle.</p>

<p>However, I only use these types of lights on a stand for formals and family groups ... if I need to light-up a reception room, I prefer mono-lights that I can control from the camera like those available from Elenchrom and Hensel, etc. where you can adjust the mono light settings with the radio controller located in the shoe mount. I use snap-on diffusion balls on Monos at a reception to eliminate the need for heavy, unbalanced umbrellas that can tip a stand over ... especially when used outdoors in a light breeze.</p>

<p> </p>

[fotografz]

<p>Here's a shot I just did in the AM of Christmas Eve. The 2 subjects camera right were wedding clients from 2008. The subjects all flew in either the night before or early that morning ... the objective was to do a shot of all the siblings and give their mother a 17" X 22" print on Christmas morning. I had 1/2 hour to do it on location outdoors ... and it was dull grey and very cold out! One of the subjects waited for me to do minor retouching and print it. 1.75 hours door-to-door.</p>

<p>I used a Metz 70MZ-5 Handle mount unit with a large Stofen Diffuser made to fit the large face of the newer Metz models. The flash was compensated to the plus side 1 stop to take the diffuser into account and provide light balance from subject to background. This enabled a more natural skin tone in very blue cast conditions using the white collar as my white balance point while processing.</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Oops! here the photo : -)</p><div></div>

[come together studios]

<p>Here is a group shot taken with a Metz 76 Mz5. Not the greatest shot in the world but does shoe the over all power.</p>

[savagesax]

Todd, it looks as though you exposed the camera for the background and this was done with great success! You can see very good detail in the brides dress. Some brides will fork over $3000 and up, so blown out whites isn't an option!

 

Not related to your lighting, which is really good, but I'd switch the guys to the right and put the ladies to the left. For one reason only. I want to see the guys boutonnieres. Mainly the groom. Perhaps you had no choice.

[picturesque]

<p>Here is Todd's image.</p><div></div>